Salkan said, "I did not have a good experience with my new Levitator and despite several hours of trying, I felt like I was trying to ride a wild horse. Another progressive beginner foil-windsurfer also tried my setting,"

I'm brand new with only a half dozen sessions. I have a wizard 150 and use an 84cm wing in the C position. I've been standing with my front foot heel in just in front of the front foot strap which is mounted all the way forward and on the inside Basically I standing on the center line. And I've got several 1000 ft or longer rides with the foil mast mostly in the water and its more stable that way. My retailer, Doug, in a telecon tells me to stick the front foot in the strap. Saturday I gave it a try. The board veered down wind. And I looked up wind and board came upwind with eyes. I had my weight a little back the board rose heading for a breach. Move my weight forward and it came down quickly. It was like riding a wild horse. Instinctually I knew I was at the balance point. Salkan, could you be at the balance point? That's a tough place to start. When I have my feet in front of the balance point and ride with the foil mast mostly in the water there is more stability. I probably only have a few minutes up on the foil, unfortunately that is were all the learning takes place. Best of luck!

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lakeeffect said. I have a wizard 150 and use an 84cm wing in the C position. I've been standing with my front foot heel in just in front of the front foot strap which is mounted all the way forward and on the inside Basically I standing on the center line.

I am not sure where your back foot on your setting but I was trying align my backfoot above the foil mast. My front foot slightly off the center line but close to the front strap. I am glad some of you are making good progress so that I could try to improve my stance and rides. I am one of the two intermediate windsurfers in our area attempting foiling and I feel like if I could show good progress others will also try. As I wrote before, I was able to foil longer distances with my old SB free formula board with i84 and already addicted with the feeling of levitation that is quite different enjoyment. It is possible the choice of board is making a difference since my SB free formula is wider than levitator 160. I don't know if SB foil 177 liter is better than the levitator 160 lt since SB 177 width is 91 cm while SS levitator is 86.3 cm that may be providing more leverage.

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DB2 said..
Hi!

Most of us use the Slingshot Foil, Mostly with i76, some with i84. In dedicated foil-boards, everyone uses position B. Even with the i84 it is just great, you can adjust it by moving the foil a bit forward. If you use C and have the foil all the way forward, I can understand where your struggle comes from. I found it easier to start the other way around, with back-foot heavy set-up.

I did not think of setting at B position since I am heavy 225 lbs but I will try to see if this would help me or I may also get i99 as Wyatt Miller said this is like a training wheel for foiling.

I think anyone riding a Slingshot board should use position B. I think Position C is only there to allow a Slingshot Foil to work on non slingshot boards....boards not really designed for foil.....with too much length and nose weight.

I wonder why they don't just say, start with B....so it's easier for people to get started on Slingshot boards.

And I am aware Wyatt said use C on the Infinity 99 with a Leviator., but I think that is unique to that wing only.

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DWF said..
I think anyone riding a Slingshot board should use position B. I think Position C is only there to allow a Slingshot Foil to work on non Slingshot boards

Not sure I agree. I have Sailed both the SS Wizard 125 and 105. I have the SS Infinity 76 which I sail in the B position and the SS Timecode 68 which I sail in the C position.
Check our SS's Free online Foil Academy where Tony Logosz talks about three stages. Stage three being front foot heavy allowing for radical freeriding.
One thing which does set Slingshot apart from others is the switchfuse which allows the lift to be moved forward or backward to suit the board or riders skill.

Basic setup rules are simple: for more lift, move the wing forward. For more control, move the wing backward.

Salkan switched from a regular windsurf board to a Slingshot board. The Slingshot boards are setup for a stance that is further back. They also have a shorter nose, which more or less enforces a stance further back. One way to deal with this would be to use the B position instead of the C position, which moves the front wing 2 inches back.

But Salkan first placed the mast in the middle of the track, and then moved it further forward. That creates even more lift, and less control. The problems he describes are exactly as expected.

Next time, try mounting the mast all the way to the back of the track box. If control is still a problem, also mount the wing in the B position instead of the C position.

Once you get some control on the board, start working on a more balanced, less backfoot-heavy stance. That allows foiling with less sail pressure, a smaller sail, and a more forward wing position.

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boardsurfr said.. Salkan first placed the mast in the middle of the track, and then moved it further forward. That creates even more lift, and less control. The problems he describes are exactly as expected.

Next time, try mounting the mast all the way to the back of the track box. If control is still a problem, also mount the wing in the B position instead of the C position.

I will follow up with this coming weekend and see if I could improve my foiling. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

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DWF said..
I think anyone riding a Slingshot board should use position B. I think Position C is only there to allow a Slingshot Foil to work on non slingshot boards....boards not really designed for foil.....with too much length and nose weight.

I wonder why they don't just say, start with B....so it's easier for people to get started on Slingshot boards.

And I am aware Wyatt said use C on the Infinity 99 with a Leviator., but I think that is unique to that wing only.

I believe most people use C position on the 84 as it has no stem like the 76.

I had a session yesterday where I used my wife's Infinity 76 instead of my Infinity 84. I left everything else unchanged. Much to my surprise, I had major control problems. I even had some breaches with the 90 cm mast I used, which never happens on the 76. I had more problems that a couple of months ago on the same foil, when I barely had foiled 10 times.

Things got a bit better when I move the mast foot forward a couple of inches, but the wind died a few minutes later, so I only got flying a couple of times with these changes.

This is an example how a wrong setup can really mess things up. I can't blame the gear or the conditions, and my skills have improved in the past 2 months. But I felt like a total rookie again with the mast foot too far back. When I started out, I had the mast foot more towards the middle of the mast track; I must have started moving it back about the same time I switched from the 76 to the 84. I remember that I had moved it even further forward in a fully overpowered session on the 76 to get more control, which worked well.

So Salkan, you could try moving the pedestal all the way back in the tracks first, and the mast foot where you had it in previous sessions. If you still have control problems, try moving the mast foot forward. If you don't get enough lift, move it back. The mast foot changes are much easier to do than changing the pedestal position in the tracks or switching the foil mast from the C to the B position.

Whatever method you use--track mount, movable footstraps, power plate, Slingshot fuselage A B C--what matters in the end is to get the front wing at about the midpoint between your feet. Then, after that, fine-tune the sail mast track to tweak the best balance.

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segler said..
Whatever method you use--track mount, movable footstraps, power plate, Slingshot fuselage A B C--what matters in the end is to get the front wing at about the midpoint between your feet. Then, after that, fine-tune the sail mast track to tweak the best balance.

That a good starting point, but it assumes you're foiling with equal weight on both feet. If you're usually sailing with most of your weight on your back foot, you'd want the front wing a little further back. If you're sailing with more weight on your front foot, it can perhaps go a tad more forward. My wife thinks my setup is way too back foot heavy, but she usually sails around on a 15 cm fin that really limits how much weight you can put on the back foot. My typical fins are more in the 22-29 cm range on my freestyle board, and bigger on slalom gear, so (relatively) back foot heavy I am.

Salkan might also be used to more weight on the back foot, so a slightly more backward position of the front wing may be helpful.

Absolutely, I agree with that. Since I assume most people like to sail or foil with equal weight on each foot, getting the wing to the middle is a good starting point.

When I first started foiling with a formula board, the finbox was so far aft that I had to nearly step off the stern with the back foot to get the foil to lift at all. Now that really slowed my learning curve. I had the finbox moved 3 inches forward (and reinforced while they were at it), and now everything is perfectly balanced.

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segler said..
Absolutely, I agree with that. Since I assume most people like to sail or foil with equal weight on each foot, getting the wing to the middle is a good starting point.

When I first started foiling with a formula board, the finbox was so far aft that I had to nearly step off the stern with the back foot to get the foil to lift at all. Now that really slowed my learning curve. I had the finbox moved 3 inches forward (and reinforced while they were at it), and now everything is perfectly balanced.

On some of the boards, the box isn't too far back, the track is too far forward. You'd have to back the mast base to the very edge to even get close. If you look at the Exocet RFs, the back straps are really far back. Slingshot is, too.

Source - spent 10 months of my life fighting an old SB Freeformula that was never going to get off the water without yanking it up and wearing out my back leg.

Has anyone with a Levitator noticed that the bottom of the board seems "soft"? I put moderate pressure on it with my thumb and knuckles when installing my foil, and I noticed that it yielded quite easily. Should I be concerned?

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excav8ter said..
Has anyone with a Levitator noticed that the bottom of the board seems "soft"? I put moderate pressure on it with my thumb and knuckles when installing my foil, and I noticed that it yielded quite easily. Should I be concerned?

I only have a Wizard, but I know I'd be contacting Slingshot if it had a soft bottom as you describe. Good luck.

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excav8ter said..
Has anyone with a Levitator noticed that the bottom of the board seems "soft"? I put moderate pressure on it with my thumb and knuckles when installing my foil, and I noticed that it yielded quite easily. Should I be concerned?

This means the tracks are flexing in the foam and this is starting to cause the bottom skin to delaminate. Track failure is coming. It should be a warranty. Poor track installation.

Best guess without seeing it.

I have seen this in boards built in the early days, before manufactures understood how bomber things needed to be.

Try flexing the foil while standing on the bottom of the board. Do you see the bottom skin go up and down?

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DWF said..

excav8ter said..
Has anyone with a Levitator noticed that the bottom of the board seems "soft"? I put moderate pressure on it with my thumb and knuckles when installing my foil, and I noticed that it yielded quite easily. Should I be concerned?

This means the tracks are flexing in the foam and this is starting to cause the bottom skin to delaminate. Track failure is coming. It should be a warranty. Poor track installation.

Best guess without seeing it.

I have seen this in boards built in the early days, before manufactures understood how bomber things needed to be.

Try flexing the foil while standing on the bottom of the board. Do you see the bottom skin go up and down?

I will check tomorrow. I definitely don't dare to stand on it at this point.
As it happens, I'll be at an event in Grand Haven tomorrow. It's a huge demo days thing from MacKite. Slingshot will be there, as well as many other companies that do foil and wind Sports related stuff.

Bring your board and show it to the Slingshot guys. They seem to be good about honoring warranty issues.

I've recently seen a large-scale delamination on a foil board from another brand that had barely been used. This one was on the top side and covered almost the entire area between mast track and nose. The outer shell very much feels like plastic, and the manufacturer does not give any details about the construction on their web site or their brochure. Made me wonder a bit.

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boardsurfr said..
Bring your board and show it to the Slingshot guys. They seem to be good about honoring warranty issues.

I've recently seen a large-scale delamination on a foil board from another brand that had barely been used. This one was on the top side and covered almost the entire area between mast track and nose. The outer shell very much feels like plastic, and the manufacturer does not give any details about the construction on their web site or their brochure. Made me wonder a bit.

I was asked If I could attend the event and have my SS Levitator and foil set up on the beach by their display. So I will definitely be having it looked at.
I am, as far as anyone knows, the only one who wind foils in our area. And I use the term "wind foil" loosely.

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SALKAN said..
I am not sure where your back foot on your setting but I was trying align my backfoot above the foil mast. My front foot slightly off the center line but close to the front strap. I am glad some of you are making good progress so that I could try to improve my stance and rides. I am one of the two intermediate windsurfers in our area attempting foiling and I feel like if I could show good progress others will also try. As I wrote before, I was able to foil longer distances with my old SB free formula board with i84 and already addicted with the feeling of levitation that is quite different enjoyment. It is possible the choice of board is making a difference since my SB free formula is wider than levitator 160. I don't know if SB foil 177 liter is better than the levitator 160 lt since SB 177 width is 91 cm while SS levitator is 86.3 cm that may be providing more leverage.

My back foot is first in front of the slingshot logo as I get up board speed, maybe 8mph. Then in front of the rear straps as the board gets up on the foil. If I put my rear foot back by the straps too soon, the rear of the board drags thru the water and prevents building board speed for foiling. Since my original reply I changed from the top mount 42cm stabilizer to the bottom mount 48cm one. There is a noticeable increase in pitch stability. This is not an original idea. NorthTexasfoiling did a youtube video early this year with that configuration, and lately Slingshot uses that configuration in there 2020 280flyer Andy Brant youtube video. Getting up on the foil is a creative process with each person's creativity being as individual as our fingerprints. Let up know what you come up with!

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lakeeffect said..

SALKAN said..

My back foot is first in front of the slingshot logo as I get up board speed, maybe 8mph. Then in front of the rear straps as the board gets up on the foil. If I put my rear foot back by the straps too soon, the rear of the board drags thru the water and prevents building board speed for foiling. Since my original reply I changed from the top mount 42cm stabilizer to the bottom mount 48cm one.

I am not sure if you are using the SS levitator since the logo on the levitator is really close to front straps. I am putting pictures of my setting (i84/48 foil in "C") as I understand from previous recommendations. With this setting, I was not able to fly easily but I was plaining most of the time on 15 mph. It also did not feel comfortable in this stance but I was trying to gradually move my backfoot on top of the mast which I started to feel in balance of flight vs plaining. Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance. In the picture 2 where review of 150 was given, foil appears to be in B position that I will try next week.

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SALKAN said..

lakeeffect said..

SALKAN said..

My back foot is first in front of the slingshot logo as I get up board speed, maybe 8mph. Then in front of the rear straps as the board gets up on the foil. If I put my rear foot back by the straps too soon, the rear of the board drags thru the water and prevents building board speed for foiling. Since my original reply I changed from the top mount 42cm stabilizer to the bottom mount 48cm one.

I am not sure if you are using the SS levitator since the logo on the levitator is really close to front straps. I am putting pictures of my setting (i84/48 foil in "C") as I understand from previous recommendations. With this setting, I was not able to fly easily but I was plaining most of the time on 15 mph. It also did not feel comfortable in this stance but I was trying to gradually move my backfoot on top of the mast which I started to feel in balance of flight vs plaining. Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance. In the picture 2 where review of 150 was given, foil appears to be in B position that I will try next week.

The 2nd picture is in position A, where the mast is mounted into the wing. Since the infinity 76 has a neck it might look like "B". I don't know too many people using "A".

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SALKAN said..

lakeeffect said..

SALKAN said..

My back foot is first in front of the slingshot logo as I get up board speed, maybe 8mph. Then in front of the rear straps as the board gets up on the foil. If I put my rear foot back by the straps too soon, the rear of the board drags thru the water and prevents building board speed for foiling. Since my original reply I changed from the top mount 42cm stabilizer to the bottom mount 48cm one.

I am not sure if you are using the SS levitator since the logo on the levitator is really close to front straps. I am putting pictures of my setting (i84/48 foil in "C") as I understand from previous recommendations. With this setting, I was not able to fly easily but I was plaining most of the time on 15 mph. It also did not feel comfortable in this stance but I was trying to gradually move my backfoot on top of the mast which I started to feel in balance of flight vs plaining. Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance. In the picture 2 where review of 150 was given, foil appears to be in B position that I will try next week.

I'm the Wizard 150 guy. Sorry for the confusion. The logo on the Wizard 150 is between the foot straps.

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SALKAN said..
Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance.

In which direction are you losing balance? Does this mean you are just unsteady or actually falling in?

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Paducah said..

SALKAN said..
Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance.

In which direction are you losing balance? Does this mean you are just unsteady or actually falling in?

Yes! first unsteady then falling. Sometimes unsteady laterally and sometimes shooting up.

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SALKAN said..

Paducah said..

SALKAN said..
Whenever it started to levitate, I lost balance.

In which direction are you losing balance? Does this mean you are just unsteady or actually falling in?

Yes! first unsteady then falling. Sometimes unsteady laterally and sometimes shooting up.

I was about to publish a post long enough to make Dickens proud but just noticed you wrote this above:
" My front foot slightly off the center line but close to the front strap."

Is your front foot in the strap, in front of the strap or behind the strap?

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lakeeffect said..
Salkan said, "I did not have a good experience with my new Levitator and despite several hours of trying, I felt like I was trying to ride a wild horse. Another progressive beginner foil-windsurfer also tried my setting,"

I'm brand new with only a half dozen sessions. I have a wizard 150 and use an 84cm wing in the C position. I've been standing with my front foot heel in just in front of the front foot strap which is mounted all the way forward and on the inside Basically I standing on the center line. And I've got several 1000 ft or longer rides with the foil mast mostly in the water and its more stable that way. My retailer, Doug, in a telecon tells me to stick the front foot in the strap. Saturday I gave it a try. The board veered down wind. And I looked up wind and board came upwind with eyes. I had my weight a little back the board rose heading for a breach. Move my weight forward and it came down quickly. It was like riding a wild horse. Instinctually I knew I was at the balance point. Salkan, could you be at the balance point? That's a tough place to start. When I have my feet in front of the balance point and ride with the foil mast mostly in the water there is more stability. I probably only have a few minutes up on the foil, unfortunately that is were all the learning takes place. Best of luck!

Trying to nip this "you need blanced power between your feet" in the butt. You want front foot power, always! Shifting the front wing forward gives both more power and more control! in order to foil stably you need to be on top of the power, both from front to back, and from side to side. the main problem people have when they're all over the place is that they are too far outboard to the side, pushing against the mast instead of the wings. if you solve it by shifting your wing back / straps or mastfoot forward you'll only learn to slightly change your technique, because you get your weight more over the centreline, but now have to hang back to get it to rise! Next to learning you the wrong technique, having the power too far back means you cannot get going early, cannot point upwind, cannot jibe and loose all stability in gusty wind. The answer is to put your wing forward! you'll have a pressure point in front of you instead of being exactly balanced, which you can counterbalance by moving your weight forward. this means, bending the front leg, loading the mastfoot etc. in this way you also have your weight over the board, maximising side to side stability and steering.

People going all over the place have either one of these problems: wing too far back/straps too far forward, or the power balanced exactly right between their feet, which is also very horrible, because that means you have to shift your weight from front to back every gust, every time you speed up, every time you are on a swell etc. if you have power on the front foot you can always load the front foot, just load it a little more when needed, keeping the board flying at all times and keeping your weight laterally and longitudinally over the center of lift.

Foil legend balz muller saying exactly the same thing, the nice info starts at about 2:30. The foil he is using is the same as the slingshot ghostwhisperer, so the balance of your slingshot kit should be very very similar:
?t=148

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Paducah said..

Is your front foot in the strap, in front of the strap or behind the strap?

Before foiling my front foot is slightly in front of the straps but gradually I move back in order to foil the board.
I am really confused now some people are recommending foil in forward position some are pushing all the way back of foil track!!

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SALKAN said..

Paducah said..

Is your front foot in the strap, in front of the strap or behind the strap?

Before foiling my front foot is slightly in front of the straps but gradually I move back in order to foil the board.
I am really confused now some people are recommending foil in forward position some are pushing all the way back of foil track!!

Ideally, your front foot should be in the strap before foiling. If it's any further forward, getting off the water goes from difficult to impossible. I've seen people who carry over the habit from normal windsurfing of having the front foot up there as the board gradually gets on a plane. They start to plane and are absolutely frustrated that the board won't lift off the water.
WhiteofHeart wrote what I essentially was going to say and did it quite well. I agree with him totally and the longer I've done this, the more front footed my setup is especially in light air. You want the lift forward - all accomplished by one or more of the following - move the foil mast forward, move the sail mast base back, move the boom up, move the front straps back.
When the lift is back and you are stomping on the back foot to get out of the water, the board is now zooming up like a jet at take-off. You probably don't have the experience yet to quickly level things out before it all goes wrong. Also, don't feel like your first runs you have to show 60 cm of foil mast above the water like all the adverts show. For some, doing little short flights helps learning how to get the foil back down. As your flights get longer, you'll have more confidence and the feel of how to quickly you need to adjust to keep things level.
There is a thread I think started by Heliboy999 a few months back where he was struggling with some of the same issues and, iirc, what was suggested and seemed to help him is to get out of leaning back windsurfing mode and more vertical windfoil mode. It takes some time and adjustment because it will feel different. It used to take me about 10 min in the first part of the day to overcome my windsurfing instinct and go into windfoil mode. Now, it's pretty much automatic.
Good luck! and hit us with any questions if this is unclear.
btw, WhiteofHeart, it's "nip it in the bud" as in the bud of a flower (which prevents it from becoming a fruit.) I know you speak several languages so no disrespect intended. However, the way you wrote it ain't bad...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nip_in_the_bud

Thought I'd share a couple of quick shots of where I had my i84 wing, using my 6.0 Flyer last Sunday. Also the foot strap placement I use.

My UJ position has basically been in the center of the mast track.

I feel like I have been a bit back foot heavy the last couple times out, so I am going to move the foil mast forward about 3/4".