I have found I am out of touch with my slapper board. Wind has been more on the light side and I'm getting 2-3 days/week on foil and twice a month on slapper. Seems every time I ride slapper, it takes 45 minutes to 1 hour to get dialed back in. Weight distribution, balance is so different on the 2 boards. I can't even uphaul my 115L slapper in lulls, as I had no problem doing it before I had the foil board. It seems, I have lost a lot of my balance and muscle memory for slapper. Switching back from slapper to foil is an easy transition. Is this normal?

Yes, that's normal. I have had the same experience several time. I used to be able to get going well in lighter winds on the slapper, but has a hard time last time. I found myself pushing the tail down in pumps, just like pumping the foil . Does not work on the slapper . I had problems uphauling, too, that I never have on my foil board, even though the foil board supposedly has just 7 liters more (feels more like 15 l).

When I'm nicely powered on the slapper, though, problems mostly disappear .. until the lulls come, which are much more noticeable on the slapper, at least when freeriding.

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boardsurfr said..
Yes, that's normal. I have had the same experience several time. I used to be able to get going well in lighter winds on the slapper, but has a hard time last time. I found myself pushing the tail down in pumps, just like pumping the foil . Does not work on the slapper . I had problems uphauling, too, that I never have on my foil board, even though the foil board supposedly has just 7 liters more (feels more like 15 l).

When I'm nicely powered on the slapper, though, problems mostly disappear .. until the lulls come, which are much more noticeable on the slapper, at least when freeriding.

Yes, when powered on slapper, all is pretty good, but it's in lulls I suffer, and pumping. I tend to pump the tail too to get on plane before I get dialed back in again on slapper, then I learn to pump with back foot more between rear and front strap to get planing, then scooch back in straps. Gybes are good on slapper. That's good to know I'm not the only one that has trouble. Yes, uphauling the foil board is easy, no issues. My foil board is 130L.

Was on the slapper today. Pumping is definitely s different technique to the foil. I automatically started pumping like i was on the foil. It took me a couple of goes to remember i needed to shove the tail down hard and get the nose up with each pump. Amazing the difference in technique required.

Slapper 95 and 5.5 yesterday, wind 12-21 with some lower gusts.
Godlike. Up as high as the best foilers, 5 mph faster, low as they go but 7 mph faster.
But nowhere near their angles, needing more speed to match vmg.
They were all rec foilers, all 3 with skills for 90% foiling jibes, i76, 84, and NP GlideS.
The course racers all go higher with maybe 1.5 times more speed, and seemingly close to double their downwind speed. Can't stay near them on a course, but they can't touch my speed on a reach. Well, yes they can....just before they explode..

Once you get to practice foiling a lot more you'll actually notice it increases your slapper technique. I practically dont need any more time to adjust now, where I did need at least a day or two in my first 150 or so foiling sessions in 2017. Right now I feel like I have so much time on the slapper board, its like everything is slowed down, also dont really come out any regular jibe slogging anymore while they were 50/50. You just have a more advanced sense of balance after a while, which really helps!

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Subsonic said..
Was on the slapper today. Pumping is definitely s different technique to the foil. I automatically started pumping like i was on the foil. It took me a couple of goes to remember i needed to shove the tail down hard and get the nose up with each pump. Amazing the difference in technique required.

Agreed

I still foil about one day for every 5 slapper days.
Most used slapper sail..5.5.
Most used foil sail..4.5, but much lighter wind days.
Maybe 55 days this year slapping, so around 12 foiling.
Still dialing in my 600 sq.cm. front wing.

Good to know. So far this year, I have 15 foiling days and 2 slapper days. Wind has been much more on the lighter side, which has given me more foiling days and just more tow period. This time last year, I had 7 tow days with only my slapper board, so the foil fills the gap well. Today through Wed look like 4 more foiling days of 10-15 mph wind each day.

Right now watching a 8th day windfoiler foil thru his 1st jibe. Touches down on at least 30 but planes out and then up.
3 total dry board foiling jibes.
Ok, maybe 60 attempts, 4 crashes so far.
150 lbs., 4.2 sail, 12-20 mph wind, NP GlideS, JP Freestyle 92.

I admire the people who still do both. Since I started foiling in 2017 I have not slapped once. The formula gear in my garage is crying for attention . I'm retired and old, so I can be a little choosy about wind conditions. If conditions are slapper-only, it's no biggie to wait a day or 5 until conditions get good for foiling.

Even Bruce Peterson says has not slapped since he started foiling in 2017. Some of his team riders still do both.

I'm 60 and I still love to windsurf in the waves as well as SB and LB surf. Sup'n is a distant 3rd, but it has its place. Foiling both wind and wing has replaced my light air rig. The 6.8 just sold? Never thought I'd be ripping pieces of chop trains in 12 knots in my life time. Feeling blessed to see this era in water sports.

150 days a year, we get wind over 18, so 6.0 and 100 liters is the biggest board.
Most foiling days end up over 18 knots.
Foiling is smooth and fun, but 4.0 sail is not when our slog out is about 3 city blocks distance.
Much easier to slog to wind line with 5.5 and 90 liter board than 4.0 and 122 with foil. Well, I think I the '18 Naish is really 115 liters.

I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

Foiling opens up windsurfing when the conditions are light to a lot more people especially if you are on the heavy side.

For others its more about experiencing a different feel and then there is the thrill of learning a different sport.

I am still far from convinced but then ive never tried a foil. Reaching speeds seem so slow compared to sailing a fin but perhaps the new NP F4 foil can help to close the gap a bit in top end speed.

Any small foil increases boatspeed.
Try foiling before making decisions.
The majority like the current 12-18 knots boatspeeds as is...from a higher perch.
Racers go upwind and downwind...both at somewhat slow speeds.

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Grantmac said..
I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

I live min 5 hours from the closest wave. Not everyone has a beach out their back door.

I can foil 20 minutes away or occasionally get a mushy side-on wave 2 hours away. I drive the 2 hours....

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Grantmac said..
I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

When crappy conditions are all you get like here in Vancouver, the geography makes the decision for you. I would rather drive 15 minutes and do 2km windfoil downwinders in small swells on good days than drive six hours for a weekend of waveriding. If I lived somewhere with waves or even reliable wind I would still be interested in fins.

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Grantmac said..
I can foil 20 minutes away or occasionally get a mushy side-on wave 2 hours away. I drive the 2 hours....

Some people dont have a car and are stuck in one location unless one friendly soul offers a ride! Even then, north sea waves in the Netherlands are 2m high tops, very choppy, low powered and very close together (also 2m between waves maybe?). Not really spectacular anyway. I prefer foiling, its a lot less exhausting, less wet and faster for me. I dont have to crash once in a 3-4 hour foil session if I dont act stupid, and maybe touch the water in a handful of jibes during that time. Practically never lose my speed if I dont want to. I regularly swim with the slapper and stop planing all the time because of the lulls.

Even then, the well powered, consistent 4.9 day on the freestyleboard is a gem and I cherish it, even though its only around 5 times a year over here!

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Grantmac said..
I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

I reckon downwind carving 1.5 to 2m windswells gives the ultimate foiling stoke.
It takes practice to be confident enough to utilize the power of the swells and control the acceleration of the foil.

Windfoil, windwing, kite and SUP foil crew at our local who have earned the downwind skills can't get enough

Kite foiler here. I get about 300 hours foiling every year, and about an hour of kite surfboard or twintip spread over two year.

The skills don't fade. It takes two turns and away you go. The real issue is tolerating the unpleasant sensation of being bashed and and dragged at by the chop. It's like trying to ride a bike through sand, with rocks in it, with the brakes on.

On the other hand, getting a session on a surfboard with head high surf is worth the effort. There's nothing quite like a mountain of water crashing behind you with a green wall out the front.

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Windbot said..

Grantmac said..
I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

When crappy conditions are all you get like here in Vancouver, the geography makes the decision for you. I would rather drive 15 minutes and do 2km windfoil downwinders in small swells on good days than drive six hours for a weekend of waveriding. If I lived somewhere with waves or even reliable wind I would still be interested in fins.

Windbot, how many days of foiling do you think you've gotten in the past year around Vancouver? I've been looking at foils since last September thinking that a foil would greatly increase my days on water. Since then, I haven't identified too many days that were in the 12 - 16 knot range. I could be totally wrong on this. I've had a handful of days at Jericho where I can sail powered up on my 5.5 or smaller, and willing to try lighter winds on my 6.5. But the 6.5 days are really scarce. It seems to jump from almost no wind to 16/18 knots. Mind you, I think those 16/18 knot days might be better on a foil anyways because of the chop/wind ratio coming from the straight.

How does your Wizard compare to the Starboard? I"m still looking at getting a foil but I would be using it with a board like your starboard, I can't get a foil and a new board.

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Ihmish said..

Windbot said..

Grantmac said..
I can't help but think that people who don't want to use a fin haven't slid down a proper wave. Foiling is fine in flat water or crappy wind chop.

When crappy conditions are all you get like here in Vancouver, the geography makes the decision for you. I would rather drive 15 minutes and do 2km windfoil downwinders in small swells on good days than drive six hours for a weekend of waveriding. If I lived somewhere with waves or even reliable wind I would still be interested in fins.

Windbot, how many days of foiling do you think you've gotten in the past year around Vancouver? I've been looking at foils since last September thinking that a foil would greatly increase my days on water. Since then, I haven't identified too many days that were in the 12 - 16 knot range. I could be totally wrong on this. I've had a handful of days at Jericho where I can sail powered up on my 5.5 or smaller, and willing to try lighter winds on my 6.5. But the 6.5 days are really scarce. It seems to jump from almost no wind to 16/18 knots. Mind you, I think those 16/18 knot days might be better on a foil anyways because of the chop/wind ratio coming from the straight.

How does your Wizard compare to the Starboard? I"m still looking at getting a foil but I would be using it with a board like your starboard, I can't get a foil and a new board.

Hi Shmish, unfortunately how many days I have gotten and how many days I could have had are two very different things with work, kids, pandemic beach parking closures and such. This spring looked really really good on the wind meter and I am sure there were stints of a week or more with at least an hour of decent foiling and often much more. I heard one of the local kitefoilers is up around 40 days at Jericho so far this season though he easily has a knot or two on me on the light end with his foil kites. I have sniped a couple easterly sessions foiling I never would have considered with a fin and they were as good as decent westerlies. I get enough in that I don't even bother going to Centennial anymore. I had a powered 5.5 evening session on the Victoria Day Monday, that was absolute magic, I got off the water well after 8. Foiling is definitely worth it in Vancouver where we feed off the wind scraps of the guys on the Island like Grant. I don't blame him for fin sailing over there, here though foiling is a game changer. The Wizard 125L is great as a one board quiver for local riding and feels small enough in the airr. 7.0 is a decent and popular big size sail for local winds, I find bigger than that sails offer diminishing returns and aren't fun to pump. You are more than welcome to message me if you want to chat about foiling locally.

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petermac33 said..
Foiling opens up windsurfing when the conditions are light to a lot more people especially if you are on the heavy side.

For others its more about experiencing a different feel and then there is the thrill of learning a different sport.

I am still far from convinced but then ive never tried a foil. Reaching speeds seem so slow compared to sailing a fin but perhaps the new NP F4 foil can help to close the gap a bit in top end speed.

If you've never foiled, 15 kt will seem like warp speed the first time. Windsurfers in normal 10-20 are faster in bursts but windfoils have a higher avg as we glide through lulls and jibes so much easier. We've converted so many locals by flying past with 2 m. less sail while they are bobbing like a cork. You don't need an F4 to go fast. Aluminum foils have been clocked in the lower 30s.

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Paducah said..
If you've never foiled, 15 kt will seem like warp speed the first time. Windsurfers in normal 10-20 are faster in bursts but windfoils have a higher avg as we glide through lulls and jibes so much easier. We've converted so many locals by flying past with 2 m. less sail while they are bobbing like a cork. You don't need an F4 to go fast. Aluminum foils have been clocked in the lower 30s.

15 knots still seems darn fast to me on a foil, even after 84 foil sessions. Part of it is that my setup often feels a bit unstable/uncontrollable when trying to go fast on the i84 or i76. The TC68 is better behaved. I have the suspicion that my narrower old slalom board (71 cm but with a thinner tail) and 71 cm mast may be contributing to that, especially in chop. But a test in the German SURF magazine also said even with the Wizard 125 and a 90 cm mast, the i76 reaches its limits early when fully powered, and can be tamed only by opening the sail ("Voll angepowert kommt der Fl?gel dann etwas fr?her ans Limit und l?sst sich dann nur noch mit ge?ffnetem Segel b?ndigen"; SURF 6/2020).

How does the i65 compare in that respect to the TC68 and the i76?

Can't help with Slingshot advice, but my new 600 sq.cm. front wing is a whole bunch friendlier than my 1220 front wing.
2 of my 150 lbs. buds switched to 1050 size wings from 1250 sizes.

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boardsurfr said..

Paducah said..
If you've never foiled, 15 kt will seem like warp speed the first time. Windsurfers in normal 10-20 are faster in bursts but windfoils have a higher avg as we glide through lulls and jibes so much easier. We've converted so many locals by flying past with 2 m. less sail while they are bobbing like a cork. You don't need an F4 to go fast. Aluminum foils have been clocked in the lower 30s.

15 knots still seems darn fast to me on a foil, even after 84 foil sessions. Part of it is that my setup often feels a bit unstable/uncontrollable when trying to go fast on the i84 or i76. The TC68 is better behaved. I have the suspicion that my narrower old slalom board (71 cm but with a thinner tail) and 71 cm mast may be contributing to that, especially in chop. But a test in the German SURF magazine also said even with the Wizard 125 and a 90 cm mast, the i76 reaches its limits early when fully powered, and can be tamed only by opening the sail ("Voll angepowert kommt der Fl?gel dann etwas fr?her ans Limit und l?sst sich dann nur noch mit ge?ffnetem Segel b?ndigen"; SURF 6/2020).

How does the i65 compare in that respect to the TC68 and the i76?

Foiling is about balancing the positive and negative lift forces (with a general bias towards increased lift which requires a heavier front foot while riding most of the time) and about being able to adjust the impact of increasing/decreasing lift as speed changes by varying your front foot to back foot pressure and mast foot pressure.

The further back the front strap the more difficult it is to control increased lift at higher speeds, as weighting your front foot has less leverage over the foil. My guess is that an old slalom board would not be ideal. If one cannot control overfoiling by weighting the front foot then they need to step the back foot forward. On my wizard I intentionally rode with front strap only to be able to do this. However, on my freestyle 115 I use front and back straps, as the straps are more forward and inboard and weighting the front foot is all I need to do to control increasing lift at higher speeds.

the i76 is a great allround wing and can handle lots of speed. The i65 goes faster which adds more lift even though its surface area is smaller. For me the i65 requires about 1 m more sail area to get it going and it does not handle the lulls as well as i76 and as things are moving quicker I am more likely to breach using it than the i76, but I have many more hours on the i76 so that could just be a familiarity thing.

Adding a longer mast helps as you have more time to adjust before the foil breaches.

PS: I am not onboard with the german magazine as for me sheeting out usually reduces mast foot pressure and increases the chance of a breach.

Yeah I agree with thedoor, in stong winds sheeting out=crashing. The i76 can definitely handle a lot of speed. Had it out in 25kts+ wind the other day and it behaves really well upwind staying sheeted in. It needs a lot of front foot when powered up going downwind with waves but still manageable.
I'm really keen to try the TC68 in those conditions. It's not often we get 1m+ waves roll across the lake but it's definitely a different game when we do. Really have to watch ride height even with a 90 mast that you don't breach between waves going upwind.

Must add love the wizard 105 in waves. I no longer have to worry about catching the nose on the next wave like I did with my 215cm board. Game changer!

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boardsurfr said..15 knots still seems darn fast to me on a foil, even after 84 foil sessions. Part of it is that my setup often feels a bit unstable/uncontrollable when trying to go fast on the i84 or i76. The TC68 is better behaved. I have the suspicion that my narrower old slalom board (71 cm but with a thinner tail) and 71 cm mast may be contributing to that, especially in chop. But a test in the German SURF magazine also said even with the Wizard 125 and a 90 cm mast, the i76 reaches its limits early when fully powered, and can be tamed only by opening the sail ("Voll angepowert kommt der Fl?gel dann etwas fr?her ans Limit und l?sst sich dann nur noch mit ge?ffnetem Segel b?ndigen"; SURF 6/2020).

How does the i65 compare in that respect to the TC68 and the i76?

Not sure about the "opening the sail" advice. I think weight over your front foot is key - and keep the power on.
Turning downwind also helps retain control when fully lit.

Fully powered - the TC68 and I65 are both equally controllable (with practice) but you'll be accelerating faster on the I65.
The I76 requires more input (weight forward) to control at speed - but it's still awesome fun in bigger winds and swells.

90cm mast height is plenty in big swells.
The foil tends to track the swell height so goes up and down a certain amount seemingly without rider input - so you only occasionally slap the bigger wave tops. I've never had any of the 3 wings breach while upwinding.
I think most mental effort is spent on identifying a path down or over the swells and dealing with acceleration - very little on controlling ride height.

Approx max ocean speeds with wave sails -
I65 - 23 knots
I76 - 21.5 knots
TC68 - 20 knots
All 3 carve better than any other similar size foil I've seen

Is this what they call mast-high?