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aeroegnr said..
I went out yesterday and finally found the right place where the windsurfers/wingers mostly go instead of all the kiters. Looks like when you add up the windsurfers plus wingers, the kiters still outnumber by 2-3x here in FL.

It was about 50/50 wingers/windsurfers with a few newbies at both, and a few returning windsurfers. For me (<90kg), I was getting planing in the gusts with my 8.0 for quite a bit. One of the wingers told me he was on a 7.0, and that seemed like a pretty big wing. The wingers were staying pretty close to shore, though, and all the lawnmowing of the windsurfers was reaching way out to a sandbar and riding it back, for a long reach of several minutes depending on if you were fullspeed planing or not.

But, I have to admit that the younger, athletic looking wingers made me a bit jealous. They looked like they were pretty effortlessly foiling around me (when I still have yet to ride a foil with as much sail as I can throw at it), passing me, turning around me, when I was still subplaning on the fin, jumping, etc. I was battling with the waves when I cut closer to shore and sub planing, trying not to sink the nose or get pushed hard into the wind.

There was one guy out on a 6.6 windfoil and he said earlier in the day he could foil without pumping, but as the wind dropped off he wasn't so lucky.

I'm kind of torn. I really, really, want to get going in lightwind on a windsurf and I wish it were as easy as throwing my 9.5 on my board, slapping on the i76, but it wasn't. Not sure if I want to bother getting a huge front wing and matching stabilizer, or get a dedicated lightwind fin/foil board like a falcon or something else, or just try winging and turning it into an athletic pump fest on lightwind days.

BUT, I don't want winging to be the same struggle that windfoiling on lightwind days has been. Yet more kit to buy, and uncertainty if it'll be as enjoyable for what I want.

No clue, and also no real rush to make a decision to buy anything else right now as long as the wind keeps up for the fall/winter season.

I listened to the Robby Naish interview on windsurfing tv. He pegs winging as a good intro to windsports and good for when the wind gets strong. Lots of young people winging on Maui. He sees windfoiling to be the best at light winds. Windfoiling isn't great for strong winds because the crashes get too scary. Windsurf is the best for wave sailing and slalom is the best once the wind picks up and you want to go fast.

I've been watching at winging the whole summer at my local club. because the wing was too little for usual wind and the board absolutely not useful (old isonic cut and reshaped) i was thinking this was kinda crappy. Never really interested in trying myself.
Now I'm on the market to buy my first wind foil and i'm trying to get as much info as possible. For this reason it happened i started reading also about winging.
Being "fast and performance" oriented to be honest I've never ever thought the amount of opportunities winging offer. Never realized it's possible in very light wind with good success as well as great "freemoving" in rough condition. Probably (not sure) even more versatile than wind foiling.
I'll definitely give it a try as soon as possible.

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w100 said..
Being "fast and performance" oriented to be honest I've never ever thought the amount of opportunities winging offer. Never realized it's possible in very light wind with good success as well as great "freemoving" in rough condition. Probably (not sure) even more versatile than wind foiling.

From what I have seen locally, winging has a wider wind range, and it's easier/more fun to do in high wing (30 knots) and big chop. But it's also even slower than freeride wind foiling - 10 to 12 knots is a typical speed on an Infinity 84. Yes, I've seen a couple of movies of wingers going fast, but that seems to be very much the exception. Some of the freestyle movies look cool, but there seems to be a larger chance to either hit the board, or be hit by the board, in crashing when trying new tricks. My wife almost broke her nose when the board hit if after she crashed doing a tack on flat water, and that was not her first wing crash were she was hurting for days after.

If you're 100% "fast and performance" oriented, you might find winging disappointing. But I like speed, too, and never found anything missing going 15 knots on a freeride foil (with a rig). Instead of raw speed, you get new things that are at least as interesting. I absolutely love playing with chop on the foil, and I was never a surfer or wave sailor. But when I tried winging, and managed to get up on the foil, I did not care very much for the feeling at all. Turns out I like having some power in the sail and a firm "third foot" connection to the board. I'll probably try again in the future, and maybe develop a taste for it, but I'm skeptical.

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boardsurfr said..

w100 said..
Being "fast and performance" oriented to be honest I've never ever thought the amount of opportunities winging offer. Never realized it's possible in very light wind with good success as well as great "freemoving" in rough condition. Probably (not sure) even more versatile than wind foiling.

From what I have seen locally, winging has a wider wind range, and it's easier/more fun to do in high wing (30 knots) and big chop. But it's also even slower than freeride wind foiling - 10 to 12 knots is a typical speed on an Infinity 84. Yes, I've seen a couple of movies of wingers going fast, but that seems to be very much the exception. Some of the freestyle movies look cool, but there seems to be a larger chance to either hit the board, or be hit by the board, in crashing when trying new tricks. My wife almost broke her nose when the board hit if after she crashed doing a tack on flat water, and that was not her first wing crash were she was hurting for days after.

If you're 100% "fast and performance" oriented, you might find winging disappointing. But I like speed, too, and never found anything missing going 15 knots on a freeride foil (with a rig). Instead of raw speed, you get new things that are at least as interesting. I absolutely love playing with chop on the foil, and I was never a surfer or wave sailor. But when I tried winging, and managed to get up on the foil, I did not care very much for the feeling at all. Turns out I like having some power in the sail and a firm "third foot" connection to the board. I'll probably try again in the future, and maybe develop a taste for it, but I'm skeptical.

Thx for your feedback.

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boardsurfr said..
From what I have seen locally, winging has a wider wind range, and it's easier/more fun to do in high wing (30 knots) and big chop.

Windfoiling is fun in all strength winds but I reckon most fun in 30 knots - because you get big chop/windswells
Sure it takes some practice but if you can windsurf in strong winds you'll be able to windfoil.

I think mast base pressure gives an advantage over winging in that we can foil with more power to carve (rail) harder into turns.
And being able to access more windpower than wingers allows us to use smaller foil wings - the Infinity 65 is dynamite when it's blowing

It was really blowing here in FL today, as in I was able to get flying with 9.5 windsurf sail. One of the locals here that teaches and works at the shop handed me a wing for a little bit, I think it was a 4.0 or a 5.0, and I was impressed with how easy it was to depower over my head compared to depowering a windsurf sail. Definitely curious about winging now. I've got an i99 front wing on the way, which would be good for a wing board. I tried foiling yet again in decent wind with my 9.5 (the wind had died), I could feel the lift and the front end was starting to leave the water, the foil dominating my steering, but shifting my weight back just slowed me down so I switched back to a fin and practiced regular windsurf gybing instead.

Maybe I'll end up getting a wing/wing board at some point soon and slap my i99 foil on it (or i76 for anyone that wants to join me and get some easy fun)

Wings will probably NOT replace windfoiling at Berkeley Ca. because it's a rare day a winger actually wings..on knees even, back to the launch dock.
Even race windfoilers can barely make it home withouta long slog.
Windsurfers hardly ever, except on rare days.

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azymuth said..
Sure it takes some practice but if you can windsurf in strong winds you'll be able to windfoil.

Not necessarily. Of course it can be learned but it is, like foiling, a new sport. Winging has really almost nothing to do with windsurfing and it is not easy. You have to learn a completely different stance on the board (you are kneeling!), a completely different mean of propulsion AND, to top it all, foiling! I have seen good windsurfers REALLY struggling with the wing ... more than I struggle with the Foil! (which says a lot!)

When it comes to efficiency I have no experience with winging but from what I see in the Bay it is less efficient than a windfoil or windsurf ... not to mention very slow. It does go up in light winds, if you like going around at 10 knots, it is very pretty to look at and I am sure it can be wonderful ...

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duzzi said..

azymuth said..
Sure it takes some practice but if you can windsurf in strong winds you'll be able to windfoil.

Not necessarily. Of course it can be learned but it is, like foiling, a new sport. Winging has really almost nothing to do with windsurfing and it is not easy. You have to learn a completely different stance on the board (you are kneeling!), a completely different mean of propulsion AND, to top it all, foiling! I have seen good windsurfers REALLY struggling with the wing ... more than I struggle with the Foil! (which says a lot!)

When it comes to efficiency I have no experience with winging but from what I see in the Bay it is less efficient than a windfoil or windsurf ... not to mention very slow. It does go up in light winds, if you like going around at 10 knots, it is very pretty to look at and I am sure it can be wonderful ...

I have to disagree, winging is quite easy if your from a windsurf background. We have a growing number of wingers at our local, those who have sailed got it straight away, myself included. Kiters seem to have more trouble, having never held a boom, knowing that the back hand controls power.
Once on the foil upwind is fine, I've had about 30 mins total winging on a foil and easily go upwind. It's a bloody good work out, think sailing with no harness.
i caught a tip on the front of the board a few times, suddenly I was on a sailboard, worked just the same.
i just tried a mates gear, a lot of coin to gear up to go winging.

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duzzi said..

azymuth said..
Sure it takes some practice but if you can windsurf in strong winds you'll be able to windfoil.

Not necessarily. Of course it can be learned but it is, like foiling, a new sport. Winging has really almost nothing to do with windsurfing and it is not easy. You have to learn a completely different stance on the board (you are kneeling!), a completely different mean of propulsion AND, to top it all, foiling! I have seen good windsurfers REALLY struggling with the wing ... more than I struggle with the Foil! (which says a lot!)

When it comes to efficiency I have no experience with winging but from what I see in the Bay it is less efficient than a windfoil or windsurf ... not to mention very slow. It does go up in light winds, if you like going around at 10 knots, it is very pretty to look at and I am sure it can be wonderful ...

Speaking as a relatively new wind foiler (1yr), wing foiling is quite easy if you can foil at all. Knowing how to control the power in a windsurfing sail is a huge part of being able to control the wing, (it's just applied differently).The stance isn't dramatically different either, slightly different I'd say. You're still left or right foot forward (I'm goofy foot), but I can easily wing both ways. I have a long way to go as far as jibes and carving waves go, but I've only been out 3 times and my Levitator 160 is not an optimal board for winging, but it works.
I got flight on my first attempt at wing foiling. I bought two Slingwing V2's (6.4 and 4.4, as well as a wing foil board). When my 3.8 is too much for wind foiling, I jump to the 6.4 V2 and keep going.

Side note....I took an 18 year hiatus from windsurfing, so I was/am rusty as heck! That being said, I had flight my first attempt at wind foiling and have not windsurfed with a fin in 19 years now. I did a few tow sessions behind my Seadoo on a foil board and then went right after the wind foil thing.

Back in the seventies and early eighties windsurfing was really slow but still fun. Now high speeds are common.

Wingfoiling is in its infancy and good speed is possible with consumer equipment and it's only going to get better. Wingers who are learning or who just want to cruise around are going slow but the OCD types are going pretty fast.

In this video the winger is moving at a good speed -- something I think most would be happy with.



Then there's looking for speed:

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dejavu said..
Back in the seventies and early eighties windsurfing was really slow but still fun. Now high speeds are common.

Wingfoiling is in its infancy and good speed is possible with consumer equipment and it's only going to get better. Wingers who are learning or who just want to cruise around are going slow but the OCD types are going pretty fast.

In this video the winger is moving at a good speed -- something I think most would be happy with.

Then there's looking for speed:

Yeah. That looks plenty fast enough

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dejavu said..
Back in the seventies and early eighties windsurfing was really slow but still fun. Now high speeds are common.

Wingfoiling is in its infancy and good speed is possible with consumer equipment and it's only going to get better. Wingers who are learning or who just want to cruise around are going slow but the OCD types are going pretty fast.

In this video the winger is moving at a good speed -- something I think most would be happy with.

Then there's looking for speed:

Not sure the inflatables will get the best speeds, looks like the old style wings are better for speed but time will tell
Maybe sail manufacturers need to get busy

Hi

I want to make a summary of the things I've seen on the net and make some comments about the comparison between windfoiling and wingfoiling. I've taken into account windfoiling can use big surf foils with small sails (WWF) and also small foils with formula boards and big sails. I want to highlight the last conclusion in bold below.

Marketing. Much more marketing in wingfoiling. Most of the videos are made in >25 knots. You can see how it's wingsurfing in light winds in this video:. The wing is falling to water all the time. This doesn't happen in WWF windfoiling

Stuff size. Much smaller in wingfoiling than windfoiling, even there are 6?windfoiling boards

Rigging speed. Faster to assembly wingfoiling than windfoiling.

Risk. Much more risk for the sailor and the sail/wing in wingfoiling as the foil is not joint to the wing through the board

Performance. Different opinions in early flying with the same sail/wing and foil size. Better early flying with big sails and formula boards in windfoiling . Better upwind and speed performance for windfoiling in all cases

Shore break. Get into more difficult for windfoiling. Beach start and waterstart in small waves easier for windfoiling IMO

Easiness. Easier to learn windfoiling than wingfoiling as everything is joint. No disturbing leashes

Surfing. Small advantage for wingfoiling compared to WWF, but read this link reefwarriors.wordpress.com/2019/12/10/wingy-dingy-thingy-vs-wwf-comparison/ and the former marketing point

Shlogging. Windfoiling can shlog when the wind falls better than wingfoiling

For a wavesailing windsurfer. WWF Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days in the water, using the same wave sails and even a big freewave board. I's easier to combine two similar sports
For a slalom windsurfer. Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days and reduce the size of the sails. They can use the same slalom board and sails. It's easier to combine two similar sports

For a surfer. I guess they would prefer wingfoiling or kitesurfing. The size of the board is more similar to surfing. They must buy everything new. They have to choose between having a foil or having a 30 m rope kite.

For a kitesurfer. Closer to wingfoiling but I think the wind range of kitesurfing is similar to wingfoiling. Kitesurfing is also good on surfing without foil. They must buy everything new. No clear reason to go wingfoiling except swapping 30 m ropes by a foil, shlog or try new things

For a supper. Normally they also belong to some of the former categories. Not always but possible to use the same supsurfing board for windfoiling. Impossible to use it for wingfoiling. Closer to windfoiling.

Conclusions:
Windsurfing+windfoiling covers all the wind ranges sharing some of the equipment. It's easier to combine two similar sports. The rest of the combinations need to double types of equipment and in case of change you have to rig everything from scratch. Windsurfing remains the best watersport for strong winds and waves
Windfoiling with big surf foils and small sails is almost as good in surfing as wingsurfing but has more performance (upwind, shlogging) and less risk
Unfortunately it's often more important the stuff size for the van than performance or any other reason.

Windfoiling could be the absolute winner if windsurfing industry had simplified the rig (like naish chopper sails), but instead of pushing WWF, most of the windsurfing brands are now making enormous marketing campaigns to sell wingboards and wings (except Goya and a few). They don't want to improve windsurfing, they want to make bussiness introducing as many new sports as possible to make us rethink everything and keep buying all the time. It's sad to have the enemy inside.

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Lecum said..
Hi

I want to make a summary of the things I've seen on the net and make some comments about the comparison between windfoiling and wingfoiling. I've taken into account windfoiling can use big surf foils with small sails (WWF) and also small foils with formula boards and big sails. I want to highlight the last conclusion in bold below.

Marketing. Much more marketing in wingfoiling. Most of the videos are made in >25 knots. You can see how it's wingsurfing in light winds in this video:

. The wing is falling to water all the time. This doesn't happen in WWF windfoiling

Stuff size. Much smaller in wingfoiling than windfoiling, even there are 6?windfoiling boards

Rigging speed. Faster to assembly wingfoiling than windfoiling.

Risk. Much more risk for the sailor and the sail/wing in wingfoiling as the foil is not joint to the wing through the board

Performance. Different opinions in early flying with the same sail/wing and foil size. Better early flying with big sails and formula boards in windfoiling . Better upwind and speed performance for windfoiling in all cases

Shore break. Get into more difficult for windfoiling. Beach start and waterstart in small waves easier for windfoiling IMO

Easiness. Easier to learn windfoiling than wingfoiling as everything is joint. No disturbing leashes

Surfing. Small advantage for wingfoiling compared to WWF, but read this link reefwarriors.wordpress.com/2019/12/10/wingy-dingy-thingy-vs-wwf-comparison/ and the former marketing point

Shlogging. Windfoiling can shlog when the wind falls better than wingfoiling

For a wavesailing windsurfer. WWF Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days in the water, using the same wave sails and even a big freewave board. I's easier to combine two similar sports
For a slalom windsurfer. Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days and reduce the size of the sails. They can use the same slalom board and sails. It's easier to combine two similar sports

For a surfer. I guess they would prefer wingfoiling or kitesurfing. The size of the board is more similar to surfing. They must buy everything new. They have to choose between having a foil or having a 30 m rope kite.

For a kitesurfer. Closer to wingfoiling but I think the wind range of kitesurfing is similar to wingfoiling. Kitesurfing is also good on surfing without foil. They must buy everything new. No clear reason to go wingfoiling except swapping 30 m ropes by a foil, shlog or try new things

For a supper. Normally they also belong to some of the former categories. Not always but possible to use the same supsurfing board for windfoiling. Impossible to use it for wingfoiling. Closer to windfoiling.

Conclusions:
Windsurfing+windfoiling covers all the wind ranges sharing some of the equipment. It's easier to combine two similar sports. The rest of the combinations need to double types of equipment and in case of change you have to rig everything from scratch. Windsurfing remains the best watersport for strong winds and waves
Windfoiling with big surf foils and small sails is almost as good in surfing as wingsurfing but has more performance (upwind, shlogging) and less risk
Unfortunately it's often more important the stuff size for the van than performance or any other reason.

Windfoiling could be the absolute winner if windsurfing industry had simplified the rig (like naish chopper sails), but instead of pushing WWF, most of the windsurfing brands are now making enormous marketing campaigns to sell wingboards and wings (except Goya and a few). They don't want to improve windsurfing, they want to make bussiness introducing as many new sports as possible to make us rethink everything and keep buying all the time. It's sad to have the enemy inside.

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Lecum said..
Hi

I want to make a summary of the things I've seen on the net and make some comments about the comparison between windfoiling and wingfoiling. I've taken into account windfoiling can use big surf foils with small sails (WWF) and also small foils with formula boards and big sails. I want to highlight the last conclusion in bold below.

Marketing. Much more marketing in wingfoiling. Most of the videos are made in >25 knots. You can see how it's wingsurfing in light winds in this video:

. The wing is falling to water all the time. This doesn't happen in WWF windfoiling

Stuff size. Much smaller in wingfoiling than windfoiling, even there are 6?windfoiling boards

Rigging speed. Faster to assembly wingfoiling than windfoiling.

Risk. Much more risk for the sailor and the sail/wing in wingfoiling as the foil is not joint to the wing through the board

Performance. Different opinions in early flying with the same sail/wing and foil size. Better early flying with big sails and formula boards in windfoiling . Better upwind and speed performance for windfoiling in all cases

Shore break. Get into more difficult for windfoiling. Beach start and waterstart in small waves easier for windfoiling IMO

Easiness. Easier to learn windfoiling than wingfoiling as everything is joint. No disturbing leashes

Surfing. Small advantage for wingfoiling compared to WWF, but read this link reefwarriors.wordpress.com/2019/12/10/wingy-dingy-thingy-vs-wwf-comparison/ and the former marketing point

Shlogging. Windfoiling can shlog when the wind falls better than wingfoiling

For a wavesailing windsurfer. WWF Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days in the water, using the same wave sails and even a big freewave board. I's easier to combine two similar sports
For a slalom windsurfer. Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days and reduce the size of the sails. They can use the same slalom board and sails. It's easier to combine two similar sports

For a surfer. I guess they would prefer wingfoiling or kitesurfing. The size of the board is more similar to surfing. They must buy everything new. They have to choose between having a foil or having a 30 m rope kite.

For a kitesurfer. Closer to wingfoiling but I think the wind range of kitesurfing is similar to wingfoiling. Kitesurfing is also good on surfing without foil. They must buy everything new. No clear reason to go wingfoiling except swapping 30 m ropes by a foil, shlog or try new things

For a supper. Normally they also belong to some of the former categories. Not always but possible to use the same supsurfing board for windfoiling. Impossible to use it for wingfoiling. Closer to windfoiling.

Conclusions:
Windsurfing+windfoiling covers all the wind ranges sharing some of the equipment. It's easier to combine two similar sports. The rest of the combinations need to double types of equipment and in case of change you have to rig everything from scratch. Windsurfing remains the best watersport for strong winds and waves
Windfoiling with big surf foils and small sails is almost as good in surfing as wingsurfing but has more performance (upwind, shlogging) and less risk
Unfortunately it's often more important the stuff size for the van than performance or any other reason.

Windfoiling could be the absolute winner if windsurfing industry had simplified the rig (like naish chopper sails), but instead of pushing WWF, most of the windsurfing brands are now making enormous marketing campaigns to sell wingboards and wings (except Goya and a few). They don't want to improve windsurfing, they want to make bussiness introducing as many new sports as possible to make us rethink everything and keep buying all the time. It's sad to have the enemy inside.

Hi Lecum,

have you ever tried Wingfoiling? Comparing sports just by surfing the internet is a little bit on the short side. I do Windsurf, Windfoil, Wingfoil and rarely Wave-SUPing.

Wingfoiling doesn't have to be faster than windfoiling, because it's a different sensation. Going 30 on a windfoil-board, in the harness, no waves, not to gusty is kind of boring. Going 30 on a Wingfoil-board, with the wing in your hands and only attached to the board by two footsteps (or none) is really thrilling. It is more manouverable, getting up on the board is not as tiring. Last year we had a fast growing windfoil community at our spot. Wingfoiling is easily breaking the numbers and there is a different reason than just the companies promoting it. Easier to learn, less equipment, bigger wind-range,... People need to buy everything new, board, foil and wing, but that doesn't hold them back.

Where windfoiling was a big improvement for us land-locked lake-surfers, with bigger wind range, smaller gear and the possibility to foil through most of the lulls. With the wing, I can effectively use my legs to pump the foil and stay on the foil in literally no wind. And still, when the wind picks up I can easily sheet out and stay on the same gear.

And by the way: it is much easier to learn than windfoiling. And even if there is a potentially higher risk for injuries, in reality there isn't. But what is most important: Do what ever you enjoy. I don't want to limit myself and enjoy every single minute on the water, windsurfing, foiling, paddling. And making most of the conditions mother nature is giving you!

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Lecum said..
Hi

I want to make a summary of the things I've seen on the net and make some comments about the comparison between windfoiling and wingfoiling. I've taken into account windfoiling can use big surf foils with small sails (WWF) and also small foils with formula boards and big sails. I want to highlight the last conclusion in bold below.

Marketing. Much more marketing in wingfoiling. Most of the videos are made in >25 knots. You can see how it's wingsurfing in light winds in this video:

. The wing is falling to water all the time. This doesn't happen in WWF windfoiling

Stuff size. Much smaller in wingfoiling than windfoiling, even there are 6?windfoiling boards

Rigging speed. Faster to assembly wingfoiling than windfoiling.

Risk. Much more risk for the sailor and the sail/wing in wingfoiling as the foil is not joint to the wing through the board

Performance. Different opinions in early flying with the same sail/wing and foil size. Better early flying with big sails and formula boards in windfoiling . Better upwind and speed performance for windfoiling in all cases

Shore break. Get into more difficult for windfoiling. Beach start and waterstart in small waves easier for windfoiling IMO

Easiness. Easier to learn windfoiling than wingfoiling as everything is joint. No disturbing leashes

Surfing. Small advantage for wingfoiling compared to WWF, but read this link reefwarriors.wordpress.com/2019/12/10/wingy-dingy-thingy-vs-wwf-comparison/ and the former marketing point

Shlogging. Windfoiling can shlog when the wind falls better than wingfoiling

For a wavesailing windsurfer. WWF Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days in the water, using the same wave sails and even a big freewave board. I's easier to combine two similar sports
For a slalom windsurfer. Windfoiling is perfect to increase the number of days and reduce the size of the sails. They can use the same slalom board and sails. It's easier to combine two similar sports

For a surfer. I guess they would prefer wingfoiling or kitesurfing. The size of the board is more similar to surfing. They must buy everything new. They have to choose between having a foil or having a 30 m rope kite.

For a kitesurfer. Closer to wingfoiling but I think the wind range of kitesurfing is similar to wingfoiling. Kitesurfing is also good on surfing without foil. They must buy everything new. No clear reason to go wingfoiling except swapping 30 m ropes by a foil, shlog or try new things

For a supper. Normally they also belong to some of the former categories. Not always but possible to use the same supsurfing board for windfoiling. Impossible to use it for wingfoiling. Closer to windfoiling.

Conclusions:
Windsurfing+windfoiling covers all the wind ranges sharing some of the equipment. It's easier to combine two similar sports. The rest of the combinations need to double types of equipment and in case of change you have to rig everything from scratch. Windsurfing remains the best watersport for strong winds and waves
Windfoiling with big surf foils and small sails is almost as good in surfing as wingsurfing but has more performance (upwind, shlogging) and less risk
Unfortunately it's often more important the stuff size for the van than performance or any other reason.

Windfoiling could be the absolute winner if windsurfing industry had simplified the rig (like naish chopper sails), but instead of pushing WWF, most of the windsurfing brands are now making enormous marketing campaigns to sell wingboards and wings (except Goya and a few). They don't want to improve windsurfing, they want to make bussiness introducing as many new sports as possible to make us rethink everything and keep buying all the time. It's sad to have the enemy inside.

Having participated in both sports I find myself disagreeing with some of your conclusions, which are:

1) safety -- if you fall you end up away from the board with no chance of being slammed by a mast (I was almost knocked out by the sail's mast and that inspired me to wear a helmet);

2) Not only is it faster to rig a wing but transportation is much easier -- most boards are short and fit in a car with a fold down back seat and there much less gear to haul around (you don't need a van or a car top carrier);

3) One wing covers a MUCH larger wind range than any sail does for windfoiling (a five metre wing can be used by most in 12 to 22 knots). Two (6 and 4) wings will cover 8 to 30 knots. I would need at least twice as many sails along with the masts, mast extensions and booms;

4) Just about any board (SUP) that takes a foil can be used with a wing. For windfoiling you also need a mast track for the sail;

5) If you don't windsurf then winging has more initial appeal than windfoiling -- that's why so many kids are interested;

6) If no one was interested in winging then there would be no marketing because there would be no sales -- winging has a much broader appeal than windfoiling and that's why it is growing so fast. I always loved windsurfing -- I learned in the late 1970s and continued windsurfing until a year ago when I started windfoiling and I'm now also wingfoiling. I find myself wanting to wingfoil more than windfoil -- for better or worse; and

7) I suspect wingfoiling will slowly (maybe quickly) replace a lot of windsurfing, windfoiling, kiting and kitefoiling. They'll still have their place but wingfoiling will "steal" many people from those sports just like kiting did from windsurfing 25 years ago. In the end the consumer will decide what sport he or she will support. You seem to believe there is a conspiracy among manufacturers to somehow trick consumers into supporting winging. Yes, they are in the business of selling equipment and this does give them more equipment to sell but in the end it is the consumer who will decide on what he or she will spend his or her money. There's a simplicity about winging that is very appealing. Choice isn't a bad thing -- kiting "stole" from windsurfing and foil kiting "stole" from kiting just like windfoiling "stole" from windsurfing and now wingfoiling is "stealing" from all of them and there are good reasons for that and it isn't just "marketing". We're both entitled to our opinions but in the end the market will decide -- personally I don't care as long as I can continue doing what I love to do for as long as I can. I never kited but I wasn't bitter when it came along and fewer and fewer people were windsurfing. I'm just thankful that foiling, in whatever form it takes, is here.

I disagree on a few points, based on what I have seen from local wingers.

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Lecum said..
Risk. Much more risk for the sailor and the sail/wing in wingfoiling as the foil is not joint to the wing through the board

Risks are different, but not necessarily higher. I managed to hit my head on the foil in a crash windfoiling. Plenty others have cuts to show, for example from water starts. My worst windsurf crashes were hooked-in catapults, falling into the mast or boom, or getting major whiplash after which my neck vertebrae started to make crunching sounds. Neither can happen winging, but winging has a higher chance of your board hitting you after a crash.

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Easiness. Easier to learn windfoiling than wingfoiling as everything is joint. No disturbing leashes

For someone who never windsurfed, the wing is a lot more intuitive than a rig. The leashes are a bother only for the first session or two.

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Shlogging. Windfoiling can shlog when the wind falls better than wingfoiling

That really depends on the board, how much the wind drops, and the wind direction. A large windfoil board certainly is easy to shlog. Smaller and shorter boards can be much harder, and windfoil boards are getting ever-shorter. Shlogging with a wing does not seem to be an issue as long as the wind is strong enough so you don't have to actively hold the wing up, maybe 5-6 knots. If the wind suddenly drops a lot but the chop sticks around longer, something that happens regularly at our spot, then shlogging even a larger windfoil board can be hard. I recall a couple of sessions where this happened and I was fighting not to fall all the time with a rig. Meanwhile, my wife on my wingboard just set down, put the wing over her head, and made it back to shore in half the time it took me. It probably helped her that we were upwind of the launch, but I definitely was jealous.

If the wind drops just a little bit, the wing wins hands-down. The range of a good wing is enormous. Two local wingers give the range as 12-30 mph and 13-32 mph for their wings (SS and F1), and those are the average wind readings, with higher gusts. Good windfoil racers may have a similar range, but average freeride foilers don't get close. I have a much wider range windfoiling than windsurfing, but there have been plenty of sessions where I could not foil, and/or had to fight when the wind picked up, while my wife was wingfoiling the whole time without any issues.

I think the determining factor is how you like the feeling when windfoiling or winging. The wingers I know just love the feeling more than windfoiling or windsurfing. I prefer windfoiling or windsurfing, but there seem to be quite a few who like the wingy thing better (even when ignoring those who only do it because it's the "in" thing).

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dejavu said..


Having participated in both sports I find myself disagreeing with some of your conclusions, which are:

1) safety -- if you fall you end up away from the board with no chance of being slammed by a mast (I was almost knocked out by the sail's mast and that inspired me to wear a helmet);

2) Not only is it faster to rig a wing but transportation is much easier -- most boards are short and fit in a car with a fold down back seat and there much less gear to haul around (you don't need a van or a car top carrier);

3) One wing covers a MUCH larger wind range than any sail does for windfoiling (a five metre wing can be used by most in 12 to 22 knots). Two (6 and 4) wings will cover 8 to 30 knots. I would need at least twice as many sails along with the masts, mast extensions and booms;

4) Just about any board (SUP) that takes a foil can be used with a wing. For windfoiling you also need a mast track for the sail;

While I haven't winged, I've been sailing beside them for 8 months and own a wing myself to be used soon. My own disagreements.

1) Safety. 11:03 since this website doesn't do timestamps. I think any foiling sport should encourage helmets.
?t=663

2) Pumping up a wing is not that much faster than rigging a 4 batten foil sail. Plus, I've never popped the bladder in my sail. I think replacement bladders is almost a side hustle for the wing companies.

3) my 5.4 covers pretty much that same range as a 5 m. wing. Wings do have a wider range but depend on big and draggy wings to make that work. What windfoils give up in range, they gain in speed and versatility. Which one is better depends on the rider's preferences. Nominally, just having two wings does sound better. But then I see my wing friends start to accumulate foil wing quivers so I'm not sure there's that much of a cost savings. Space savings? Yes.

And seeing 6m in light wind, I'm happy to be on a bigger sail and smaller foil. That's my preference and I'll admit to that.

4) That advantage doesn't mean a lot in a room full of windsurfers/windfoilers.

Is winging going to grow? Absolutely. I've suggested this for a long time. I think it's the easiest foiling sport to learn if you starting from zero. I'm very excited to give it a go myself.

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dejavu said..

7) I suspect wingfoiling will slowly (maybe quickly) replace a lot of windsurfing, windfoiling, kiting and kitefoiling. They'll still have their place but wingfoiling will "steal" many people from those sports just like kiting did from windsurfing 25 years ago. In the end the consumer will decide what sport he or she will support. You seem to believe there is a conspiracy among manufacturers to somehow trick consumers into supporting winging. Yes, they are in the business of selling equipment and this does give them more equipment to sell but in the end it is the consumer who will decide on what he or she will spend his or her money. There's a simplicity about winging that is very appealing. Choice isn't a bad thing -- kiting "stole" from windsurfing and foil kiting "stole" from kiting just like windfoiling "stole" from windsurfing and now wingfoiling is "stealing" from all of them and there are good reasons for that and it isn't just "marketing". We're both entitled to our opinions but in the end the market will decide -- personally I don't care as long as I can continue doing what I love to do for as long as I can. I never kited but I wasn't bitter when it came along and fewer and fewer people were windsurfing. I'm just thankful that foiling, in whatever form it takes, is here.

Definitely. The current exodus from windsurfing/windfoiling to wingfoiling is far greater than the exodus from windsurfing to windfoiling that we saw a few years ago. The exodus from windsurfing to wingfoiling is reminiscent of the kiteboarding exodus of the early/mid 2000s.

PS: in some ways it's super cool that kiters and windsurfers have reunited in a wingdinging lovefest. Alas, most windfoilers and kitefoilers watch this stringless/poleless foil-orgy with envy.

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thedoor said..

dejavu said..

7) I suspect wingfoiling will slowly (maybe quickly) replace a lot of windsurfing, windfoiling, kiting and kitefoiling. They'll still have their place but wingfoiling will "steal" many people from those sports just like kiting did from windsurfing 25 years ago. In the end the consumer will decide what sport he or she will support. You seem to believe there is a conspiracy among manufacturers to somehow trick consumers into supporting winging. Yes, they are in the business of selling equipment and this does give them more equipment to sell but in the end it is the consumer who will decide on what he or she will spend his or her money. There's a simplicity about winging that is very appealing. Choice isn't a bad thing -- kiting "stole" from windsurfing and foil kiting "stole" from kiting just like windfoiling "stole" from windsurfing and now wingfoiling is "stealing" from all of them and there are good reasons for that and it isn't just "marketing". We're both entitled to our opinions but in the end the market will decide -- personally I don't care as long as I can continue doing what I love to do for as long as I can. I never kited but I wasn't bitter when it came along and fewer and fewer people were windsurfing. I'm just thankful that foiling, in whatever form it takes, is here.

Definitely. The current exodus from windsurfing/windfoiling to wingfoiling is far greater than the exodus from windsurfing to windfoiling that we saw a few years ago. The exodus from windsurfing to wingfoiling is reminiscent of the kiteboarding exodus of the early/mid 2000s.

PS: in some ways it's super cool that kiters and windsurfers have reunited in a wingdinging lovefest. Alas, most windfoilers and kitefoilers watch this stringless/poleless foil-orgy with envy.

Well said! You summed up the current state of affairs very nicely.

That double exodus concept is quite true, and it begs the question what it will leave behind.

#1 - Windsurfing was already struggling due to a lack of windsurfers ; and now with windfoiling, the equipment diversity has almost doubled (foil specific sail, foil specific boards, no need for fins etc).... For exemple, the demand for large sails, SDM mast 460 and above (not compatible with foil sails) is going down... So for sure the windsurfing offerings from each company will be significantly reduced over the next year.

Fortunately on the foil side, windfoils benefit from the other sports (kite, wing, surf) so that will help. The volume is there, and the longer fuselage required for windsurfing is a minor issue. (cheap, easy to stock / ship , etc)

The other question is if the windfoil will, in the mid to long term, only serve as a link to the wingfoil, eventually draining further the windsurfer/windfoiler pool!

That's a possiblity that would leave the windurfing industry (as we know it now) in bad shape.

The good thing with wing foiling is that it attracts windsurfer, kite surfers and newbies. So it's got a fairly good pool of potential customers to ensure its survival, even if performance is not as good as windfoil on certain aspects.

And it solves the 2 major windsurfing issue. Wind Range and Equipment space.

Let's see...

If you windsurf, buy a big car or small van.
Any sport, you gotta transport your gear.
3 wings and 2 foils take up the whole back space of any compact car. Just buy a van and change and camp in it.

Hi

Thanks for the comments. Even I've tried to collect information from people who have tried both sports, it's clear the opinions are quite different. I must admit I'm a traditional windsurfer but I can see which are the advantages of other water sports compared to windsurfing, for example kitesurfing in light winds with such small boards. My main target was not putting down wingfoiling but showing that windfoiling could have much more development in a similar application of wingfoiling with big foils and small sails. However, it's not being pushed by the same brands which were born with windsurfing and they got good share of windsurfing benefits in the past.

I perfectly know what a bussiness is, I work in a company and they have the right to do whatever is better for the turnover. I only wanted to see if wingfoiling really adds much more value than existing WWF windfoiling. If it really adds more value and fun it's a good progress and I could go for it. If not, wingfoiling would be only a matter of fashion which is also another good way to sell more but I wouldn't change only for that.

On the other hand, IMO it's difficult that a company which is changing its main marketing goal every two years to a new sport, could keep its reputation in the other old sports that continues manufacturing. For example, I don't know anyone who has now a modern Naish wavesailing board and I see less naish sup boards on the water every year, but this can be a local impression. The case of Naish is the most interesting taking into account what Robby represents for windsurfing. However he has not included mast inserts in small sup boards (as fanatic or JP do), and his windfoiling products are only for freeride, nothing for WWF, the waves are for wingfoiling.

If I had to choose a Goya board or a Naish board I think I would try to buy the Goya one first.

Windsurfing could have received much more development if the brands would have developed it in a practical way (not so technical and for perfect conditions), and not let it down for any other new sport as it is now.

Maybe I'm a windsurfing romantic but I would go for any new sport which really could give me more fun in an easier way than windsurfing for sure.

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Lecum said..
Hi

Thanks for the comments. Even I've tried to collect information from people who have tried both sports, it's clear the opinions are quite different. I must admit I'm a traditional windsurfer but I can see which are the advantages of other water sports compared to windsurfing, for example kitesurfing in light winds with such small boards. My main target was not putting down wingfoiling but showing that windfoiling could have much more development in a similar application of wingfoiling with big foils and small sails. However, it's not being pushed by the same brands which were born with windsurfing and they got good share of windsurfing benefits in the past.

I perfectly know what a bussiness is, I work in a company and they have the right to do whatever is better for the turnover. I only wanted to see if wingfoiling really adds much more value than existing WWF windfoiling. If it really adds more value and fun it's a good progress and I could go for it. If not, wingfoiling would be only a matter of fashion which is also another good way to sell more but I wouldn't change only for that.

On the other hand, IMO it's difficult that a company which is changing its main marketing goal every two years to a new sport, could keep its reputation in the other old sports that continues manufacturing. For example, I don't know anyone who has now a modern Naish wavesailing board and I see less naish sup boards on the water every year, but this can be a local impression. The case of Naish is the most interesting taking into account what Robby represents for windsurfing. However he has not included mast inserts in small sup boards (as fanatic or JP do), and his windfoiling products are only for freeride, nothing for WWF, the waves are for wingfoiling.

If I had to choose a Goya board or a Naish board I think I would try to buy the Goya one first.

Windsurfing could have received much more development if the brands would have developed it in a practical way (not so technical and for perfect conditions), and not let it down for any other new sport as it is now.

Maybe I'm a windsurfing romantic but I would go for any new sport which really could give me more fun in an easier way than windsurfing for sure.

Select to expand quote

Lecum said..
Hi

Thanks for the comments. Even I've tried to collect information from people who have tried both sports, it's clear the opinions are quite different. I must admit I'm a traditional windsurfer but I can see which are the advantages of other water sports compared to windsurfing, for example kitesurfing in light winds with such small boards. My main target was not putting down wingfoiling but showing that windfoiling could have much more development in a similar application of wingfoiling with big foils and small sails. However, it's not being pushed by the same brands which were born with windsurfing and they got good share of windsurfing benefits in the past.

I perfectly know what a bussiness is, I work in a company and they have the right to do whatever is better for the turnover. I only wanted to see if wingfoiling really adds much more value than existing WWF windfoiling. If it really adds more value and fun it's a good progress and I could go for it. If not, wingfoiling would be only a matter of fashion which is also another good way to sell more but I wouldn't change only for that.

On the other hand, IMO it's difficult that a company which is changing its main marketing goal every two years to a new sport, could keep its reputation in the other old sports that continues manufacturing. For example, I don't know anyone who has now a modern Naish wavesailing board and I see less naish sup boards on the water every year, but this can be a local impression. The case of Naish is the most interesting taking into account what Robby represents for windsurfing. However he has not included mast inserts in small sup boards (as fanatic or JP do), and his windfoiling products are only for freeride, nothing for WWF, the waves are for wingfoiling.

If I had to choose a Goya board or a Naish board I think I would try to buy the Goya one first.

Windsurfing could have received much more development if the brands would have developed it in a practical way (not so technical and for perfect conditions), and not let it down for any other new sport as it is now.

Maybe I'm a windsurfing romantic but I would go for any new sport which really could give me more fun in an easier way than windsurfing for sure.

Naish is either very open minded in regards to finding ways to enjoy the ocean or a very smart business person. or both.

He did not invent kiteboarding but his company was instrumental in validating kitesurfing as a cool unique way to enjoy the ocean.

He did not invent sup, but he certainly saw its application and I believe at a time Naish sold more sups than windsurfers or kiteboards.

I don't think he abandoned windsurfing at all during these times, I just think he was able to see the future popularity of kitesurfing and supping and made sure that his company had a contribution/piece of the action.

I don't know who invented wing foiling, but it seemed to me Naish hit the market first and he effectively validated the sport with one clip 2 min clip on youtube

PS: pretty sure people can WWF on naish gear if they wanted.

PPS: windsurfing has changed tremendously over the last 40 years, but the relative difference each season gets less and less. I don't think we lack development in windsurfing, I think we have our gear for each type of windsurfing pretty dialed. So dialed that over the last decade "improvements" might actually leave us worse off. Or at least we can make something better (eg early planning), but it costs us something else (eg speed)

Maybe windfoiling will become a niche within a niche but I reckon if you value performance and for me that means up and downwind speed and being able to carve hard on big ocean windswells, windfoiling is way ahead of winging

Perhaps winging will Improve powerwise so they can carve with smaller foils and go faster - but we'll always carve harder by being able to transfer wind power to the foil through the mast base.
I think windsurf wavesailing is more hardcore than kite waveriding for the same reason

Hello,

I will not do a so short conclusion about windsurf or Kitesurf vs wingfoil. For me wingfoil is at start a response to Kitesurf issue with more and more beach where they are banned during summer time and not windsurfer.I practice both kite and windsurf with or without foil and honestly there is not one better than the other one.
I look to start wingfoiling but I will not 2 time the same mistake. In 2005 I sold all my windsurf gear switching to kite at the end with the gear at that time that was not enough tolerant I was not ridding a lot. Stop every thing for few year and when I restart I done light wind windsurf as the kite was not good for that at that time and medium high wind kite surf.
now I chose my quiver depending wind condition. last winter wind was blowing crazy from south, can't ride on sea shore as it fully off. Inland spot are meanly close for kitesurfing during winter the closest one was for slalom/speed windsurf can't do foil I don't see any advantage to wingfoil.
I see it clearly as an extra tools to go riding perhaps it will take over kite foiling but if the spot don't allow foil, kitesurf will be the good option to go on the water.

This video pretty much sums up why wingfoiling is growing so fast:

Easy of difficult to learn I am sure winging is tons of fun, and it has the advantage of getting rid of a ton of kiters and their 30 yard long rigs. Local beaches, and waters, are much better since the wingies got rid of the kites!

But one thing to keep in mind is safety. A couple of days ago I witnessed the first serious trouble. At a local off shore wind spot, the winds drops and the wing starts to loose ground. The pilot, an experienced windsurfer, can still occasionally foil and it seems to be able to reach the last, way downwind, pier. But, we learn later, it turns out she does not and drifts down wind of the last piece of land. The husband, swims out to her, but they cannot come back, the little breeze left, no more than a few knots, is enough to push them further downwind. It is getting dark, they have a radio, so they can call the coast guard, but they are eventually rescued by a Kayak miraculously appearing in the rather forsaken spot.

Something to be well aware of: many wingies barely float you, and unless you are on a big one they share with kites a non existent upwind capability once you are off the foil ...