Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

PhilUK said..
The did have QF, SF & Final at Brest.

I had not watched the races, just looked at the results, where they did not bother to show the results of the quarter finals and semi finals separately.

So they raced exactly like the rules require, and Thomas Goyard complained about it afterwards. That means his complaints really make no sense. The overall winner, Sebastian Koerdel, got a bullet in 9 of the 14 races before the final 3 races. Nobody else came even close, and he was guaranteed a third place when entering the finals. The Dutch guys on 2nd and 3rd place also had exactly the same position after the first 14 races. The guy in 4th place gained one spot in the quarterfinal, and the guy in 7th place lost 3 spots. But they all were close enough that these changes could have happened in another regular race, too.

So Thomas Goyard is just whining, similar to Mateo Iacchino a few years ago at the Silvaplana races. That's simply poor sportsmanship.

Iachino comes from PWA where the scoring system is based on all races, not just a medal race, winner takes all. Someone posted above that Nico Goyard lost out at an event due to the format. I dont think this is the 1st time Thomas Goyard has complained. For this event it didnt affect his results, but maybe he knows how possibly it might.

Thomas Goyard was silver medallist at Tokyo. He knows the effort put in, and how one bad medal race in this format race could ruin an event, a four year campaign. At Tokyo in the medal race, Badloe was untouchable for gold, Thomas was untouchable for silver, he was OCS in the medal race and got maximum points, he still finished in silver place.
Kun Bi finished 4th in the medal race for bronze, he overtook others who were also OCS.
tokyo2020.sailing.org/results-centre/

You could say at Tokyo the medal race wasnt counting for a lot, just bronze, and that for the viewers a reset and this medal race series adds to the interest. But who is the Olympics for, the best viewer experience or the best competitor experience?

And boardsurfr didnt even watch the medal race series and yet is talking down an Olympic silver medallist who makes a valid point.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Oh my ... discussions about race rules ... I actually wonder why the dismal coverage of the whole event. It is at least the second event, with Silt PWA, that has basically zero coverage. Does anybody care besides the racers? It turns out that an Italian won the Women race, and Italian windsurf sites like www.4actionsport.it/ do not even show the news. www.riwmag.com/iqfoil-world-championships-brest-2022-marta/ does in an incomprehensible article reporting about the race format.

Its spelt Sylt.
Live stream coverage is down to money.
Drone coverage at Brest wasnt, great, but I guess you get what you pay for.
Covering a sport where the course position can be changed in 5 minutes can leave the film makers a bit stumped. The start was about 1km from the shore. The finish was close to the land, due to the SE wind direction. SE is rare.

Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

boardsurfr said..

PhilUK said..
The did have QF, SF & Final at Brest.

I had not watched the races, just looked at the results, where they did not bother to show the results of the quarter finals and semi finals separately.

So they raced exactly like the rules require, and Thomas Goyard complained about it afterwards. That means his complaints really make no sense. The overall winner, Sebastian Koerdel, got a bullet in 9 of the 14 races before the final 3 races. Nobody else came even close, and he was guaranteed a third place when entering the finals. The Dutch guys on 2nd and 3rd place also had exactly the same position after the first 14 races. The guy in 4th place gained one spot in the quarterfinal, and the guy in 7th place lost 3 spots. But they all were close enough that these changes could have happened in another regular race, too.

So Thomas Goyard is just whining, similar to Mateo Iacchino a few years ago at the Silvaplana races. That's simply poor sportsmanship.

Iachino comes from PWA where the scoring system is based on all races, not just a medal race, winner takes all. Someone posted above that Nico Goyard lost out at an event due to the format. I dont think this is the 1st time Thomas Goyard has complained. For this event it didnt affect his results, but maybe he knows how possibly it might.

Thomas Goyard was silver medallist at Tokyo. He knows the effort put in, and how one bad medal race in this format race could ruin an event, a four year campaign. At Tokyo in the medal race, Badloe was untouchable for gold, Thomas was untouchable for silver, he was OCS in the medal race and got maximum points, he still finished in silver place.
Kun Bi finished 4th in the medal race for bronze, he overtook others who were also OCS.
tokyo2020.sailing.org/results-centre/

You could say at Tokyo the medal race wasnt counting for a lot, just bronze, and that for the viewers a reset and this medal race series adds to the interest. But who is the Olympics for, the best viewer experience or the best competitor experience?

And boardsurfr didnt even watch the medal race series and yet is talking down an Olympic silver medallist who makes a valid point.

Matteo, who is a good kid, was top 3 in the RSX rankings for about three years before Tokyo, from 1st to 3rd on points all through the Games, and then got an OCS in the last race and dropped out of the medals. It's a pretty damn harsh ending and there seems to be no real evidence that the spectator gain from the competitors' loss.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Chris 249 said..

boardsurfr said..

PhilUK said..
The did have QF, SF & Final at Brest.

I had not watched the races, just looked at the results, where they did not bother to show the results of the quarter finals and semi finals separately.

So they raced exactly like the rules require, and Thomas Goyard complained about it afterwards. That means his complaints really make no sense. The overall winner, Sebastian Koerdel, got a bullet in 9 of the 14 races before the final 3 races. Nobody else came even close, and he was guaranteed a third place when entering the finals. The Dutch guys on 2nd and 3rd place also had exactly the same position after the first 14 races. The guy in 4th place gained one spot in the quarterfinal, and the guy in 7th place lost 3 spots. But they all were close enough that these changes could have happened in another regular race, too.

So Thomas Goyard is just whining, similar to Mateo Iacchino a few years ago at the Silvaplana races. That's simply poor sportsmanship.

But as you said, no one came close to Koerdel. So in that case, why should be in a position where he could have finished as low as third? If you dominate, you should be in a dominant position in the last race, or not even have to do it just like Michael Schumacher, Vettel, Proust and other greats of F1 racing have not had to do the last few races. In Formula One, the winner of the year's title is regularly decided before the last race (or last few races) and the winner has not always even been ALIVE when they won it; Jochen Rindt was killed practising before race 10 of 13 but still won! And yet F1 still gets enormous ratings.

In the Tour de France the last day is just ceremonial for the overall contenders, most of the time, and it's still one of the most watched events of the year. So the whole medal race idea is just bulls**t since major sporting events clearly don't need a winner-take-all final.

Sailing's popularity has shrunk since World Sailing started BS like the medal race; it's a classic example of a stupid idea, based on an illogical concept, driven by a panicked rush to try to "modernise" rather than trying to play to sailing's strengths. Although the IOC no longer publishes ratings figures, back when they did it was noticeable that WS's attempts to make sailing more TV-friendly were not working. Instead of accepting that, and worrying about the sport's integrity and the link between grass roots and the elite, they continue to impose knee jerk reactions and to split the sport in twain. 'Scuse the rant.

Is the medal race a winner take all like the IQ foil, or just the double point final race mentioned above?

Double points. In some ways it's far more interesting when the points allows the top two sailors to match race back in the fleet, rather than just charge out for the win. You get some really interesting points scenarios, based on who is beating who by a particular number of places. But World Sailing insists on assuming that sailors and those who watch sailing are dumbarses.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
Matteo, who is a good kid, was top 3 in the RSX rankings for about three years before Tokyo, from 1st to 3rd on points all through the Games, and then got an OCS in the last race and dropped out of the medals. It's a pretty damn harsh ending and there seems to be no real evidence that the spectator gain from the competitors' loss.

Seems you're talking about Mattia Camboni, not Matteo Iachino. And the races were held under the "double points" rule for the medal race, not under the current IQ foil rules. That particular example kind of contradicts your last post.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..
And boardsurfr didnt even watch the medal race series and yet is talking down an Olympic silver medallist who makes a valid point.

No need to yell. This is a forum where people express their opinions. Your "Olympic silver medallist" knew the rules before the event, and he could have made his point before the event. Making big statements on social media while being upset after having a bad event is poor sportsmanship. But perhaps he did that to distract from the fact the he did not do so well in the event, and put the blame on "the system". A very popular approach these days.

What I watched from the men's finals seemed very boring. If the winner of the event is determined before the last race, as was the case under the rules in Tokyo, there's really no reason whatsoever to watch such races, or to show them on TV. To get Olympic gold in soccer, a team has to win every single game after the first round. To win the 100 m crown, you have to be fastest in the last race. Everything before just determines who gets into the finals. It makes sense to most people. Calling them "dumbarses" is rather arrogant.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..
Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Sarcasm, what a nice touch! BTW, while I currently do most of my sailing in the US, and therefore understand why the US does not really stand a chance in world events, I happen to have the same citizenship as the Sebastian Koerdel.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

thedoor said..

Chris 249 said..

boardsurfr said..

PhilUK said..
The did have QF, SF & Final at Brest.

I had not watched the races, just looked at the results, where they did not bother to show the results of the quarter finals and semi finals separately.

So they raced exactly like the rules require, and Thomas Goyard complained about it afterwards. That means his complaints really make no sense. The overall winner, Sebastian Koerdel, got a bullet in 9 of the 14 races before the final 3 races. Nobody else came even close, and he was guaranteed a third place when entering the finals. The Dutch guys on 2nd and 3rd place also had exactly the same position after the first 14 races. The guy in 4th place gained one spot in the quarterfinal, and the guy in 7th place lost 3 spots. But they all were close enough that these changes could have happened in another regular race, too.

So Thomas Goyard is just whining, similar to Mateo Iacchino a few years ago at the Silvaplana races. That's simply poor sportsmanship.

But as you said, no one came close to Koerdel. So in that case, why should be in a position where he could have finished as low as third? If you dominate, you should be in a dominant position in the last race, or not even have to do it just like Michael Schumacher, Vettel, Proust and other greats of F1 racing have not had to do the last few races. In Formula One, the winner of the year's title is regularly decided before the last race (or last few races) and the winner has not always even been ALIVE when they won it; Jochen Rindt was killed practising before race 10 of 13 but still won! And yet F1 still gets enormous ratings.

In the Tour de France the last day is just ceremonial for the overall contenders, most of the time, and it's still one of the most watched events of the year. So the whole medal race idea is just bulls**t since major sporting events clearly don't need a winner-take-all final.

Sailing's popularity has shrunk since World Sailing started BS like the medal race; it's a classic example of a stupid idea, based on an illogical concept, driven by a panicked rush to try to "modernise" rather than trying to play to sailing's strengths. Although the IOC no longer publishes ratings figures, back when they did it was noticeable that WS's attempts to make sailing more TV-friendly were not working. Instead of accepting that, and worrying about the sport's integrity and the link between grass roots and the elite, they continue to impose knee jerk reactions and to split the sport in twain. 'Scuse the rant.

Is the medal race a winner take all like the IQ foil, or just the double point final race mentioned above?

Double points. In some ways it's far more interesting when the points allows the top two sailors to match race back in the fleet, rather than just charge out for the win. You get some really interesting points scenarios, based on who is beating who by a particular number of places. But World Sailing insists on assuming that sailors and those who watch sailing are dumbarses.

Sounds like this winner take all final in IQ foil is the "evolution" of the medal race concept, which was intended to make the final day more relevant?

I guess for the sailors sitting out on finals day is kind of lame, cause any win is a win, even if you cannot medal. Sailing is not much of a spectator sport, although foiling makes it a bit more exciting, so setting up rules to attract spectators seems a little dumb espescially if the sailors are not on board with them.

As mentioned above a three person/boat race is a little dull to watch espescially with foiling where it basically comes down to staying up on foil and making your transitions. Seems like if you do those things then it all comes down to the start, espescially if wind is consistent across the course.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Oh my ... discussions about race rules ... I actually wonder why the dismal coverage of the whole event. It is at least the second event, with Silt PWA, that has basically zero coverage. Does anybody care besides the racers? It turns out that an Italian won the Women race, and Italian windsurf sites like www.4actionsport.it/ do not even show the news. www.riwmag.com/iqfoil-world-championships-brest-2022-marta/ does in an incomprehensible article reporting about the race format.

Its spelt Sylt.
Live stream coverage is down to money.
Drone coverage at Brest wasnt, great, but I guess you get what you pay for.
Covering a sport where the course position can be changed in 5 minutes can leave the film makers a bit stumped. The start was about 1km from the shore. The finish was close to the land, due to the SE wind direction. SE is rare.

Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Sorry about that! (Silt instead of Sylt).

I am actually Italian, I moved to the USA in my late twenties, and I have dual citizenship. Having clarified that I must also say that I care very little about who wins a race, and I care even less about what nationality the winners are. The fact that the winners might match my nationality, or not, is utterly and completely irrelevant to me.

Back to topic, what surprises me is that it is so hard to find and watch world-level windfoil championships. Broadcasts, and audience, seem almost non existent. Too bad, because the flying thingies are kind of cute!

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

Chris 249 said..
Matteo, who is a good kid, was top 3 in the RSX rankings for about three years before Tokyo, from 1st to 3rd on points all through the Games, and then got an OCS in the last race and dropped out of the medals. It's a pretty damn harsh ending and there seems to be no real evidence that the spectator gain from the competitors' loss.

Seems you're talking about Mattia Camboni, not Matteo Iachino. And the races were held under the "double points" rule for the medal race, not under the current IQ foil rules. That particular example kind of contradicts your last post.

PhilUK said..
And boardsurfr didnt even watch the medal race series and yet is talking down an Olympic silver medallist who makes a valid point.

No need to yell. This is a forum where people express their opinions. Your "Olympic silver medallist" knew the rules before the event, and he could have made his point before the event. Making big statements on social media while being upset after having a bad event is poor sportsmanship. But perhaps he did that to distract from the fact the he did not do so well in the event, and put the blame on "the system". A very popular approach these days.

What I watched from the men's finals seemed very boring. If the winner of the event is determined before the last race, as was the case under the rules in Tokyo, there's really no reason whatsoever to watch such races, or to show them on TV. To get Olympic gold in soccer, a team has to win every single game after the first round. To win the 100 m crown, you have to be fastest in the last race. Everything before just determines who gets into the finals. It makes sense to most people. Calling them "dumbarses" is rather arrogant.

PhilUK said..
Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Sarcasm, what a nice touch! BTW, while I currently do most of my sailing in the US, and therefore understand why the US does not really stand a chance in world events, I happen to have the same citizenship as the Sebastian Koerdel.

Yep, Matteo Camboni, but I couldn't recall his last name at the time. I was a few places behind him at the LT worlds (where he scored a first and two seconds in the three racing events) and he seems to be a nice guy, so I hoped he would get a medal at the Games.

Yes, what happened to him was under the double point medal race system. The point is that I think even THAT is wrong. Under the normal rules, Matteo could probably have dropped the last race and still got a medal, which (given the results through the entire Olympic cycle) was arguably what he deserved.

In the 100m race, each runner has their own lane and has to stay in it. In football, there are only two teams playing in each game. There is no chance in events like that of another competitor messing up a potential medalist, as can happen in sailing.

Sailing is also more subject to the weather than other sports. In football, a sudden shift of wind doesn't move the goalposts to the middle of the field during play, giving one team a huge advantage. In running, the track doesn't develop a bunch of bumps for one runner 25m up the 100m final.

Sailing basically started with single-race winner-take-all events (like the original America's Cup) before realising that the flukes of the weather and the large fields of competitors meant that it was far fairer to have lots of race and a drop or two. World Sailing is taking the sport backwards about 150 years, in terms of fairness and technique, and they have absolutely no evidence that it is providing any benefit for the sport.

The state I live in is arguably a world centre for WS's preferred style of sailing. We have multiple recent gold medallists and medallists in skiffs and foilers; our skippers drive America's Cup foilers and Grand Prix Sailing foilers - and sailing is now, per capita, 25% as big as it used to be. The same sort of thing has happened in NZ, which is arguably the world's other centre of spectacular sailing. Germany, on the other hand, doesn't do much of the "extreme" televised broadcast sailing and the sport is apparently maintaining its popularity better than Australia or NZ.

So there seems to be zero evidence that WS' strategy of making the sport more "broadcast friendly" is working at all, and by doing so they are making the sailing less fair. It's a silly idea that should be scrapped.

The fact that broadcasts, and good ones, are so hard to find just emphasises how silly it is to stuff up the racing in the hope of getting viewers.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

BTW, while I currently do most of my sailing in the US, and therefore understand why the US does not really stand a chance in world events, I happen to have the same citizenship as the Sebastian Koerdel.

What's your angle on the poor state of world class sailing in the USA?

Finals on youtube now for those who dont have Facebook.



QF action starts around 1:24 into the livestream.
Women's final 2:14 into the livestream, Men's 2:47.

I think the drone filming got better as the week went on.

If this had been RSX World Championship I dont think it would have been anywhere near as interesting in the light winds we had some days. 262 competitors actually sailed.

Next World Championships are in Lanzarote. January 26 to 3rd February 2024.
allsportdb.com/Events/2024-iQFOIL-Sailing-World-Championships-13915
According to that site, the previous WC in Foil/RSX have been Spain 2021, Australia 2020, Italy 2019, Japan 2017, Israel 2016, Oman 2015, Brazil 2013. Seems a bit Eurocentric for the last 2 and next one.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
No need to yell. This is a forum where people express their opinions. Your "Olympic silver medallist" knew the rules before the event, and he could have made his point before the event. Making big statements on social media while being upset after having a bad event is poor sportsmanship. But perhaps he did that to distract from the fact the he did not do so well in the event, and put the blame on "the system". A very popular approach these days.

What I watched from the men's finals seemed very boring. If the winner of the event is determined before the last race, as was the case under the rules in Tokyo, there's really no reason whatsoever to watch such races, or to show them on TV. To get Olympic gold in soccer, a team has to win every single game after the first round. To win the 100 m crown, you have to be fastest in the last race. Everything before just determines who gets into the finals. It makes sense to most people. Calling them "dumbarses" is rather arrogant.

Maybe Goyard always had this view and has expressed it before. Maybe he waited until after the event to express it to concentrate on the event itself and not get distracted.

"If the winner of the event is determined before the last race, as was the case under the rules in Tokyo, there's really no reason whatsoever to watch such races, or to show them on TV. "

Is the Olympics about people watching from their sofa, or finding the best athlete in the world?

To get Olympic gold in soccer, a team has to win every single game after the first round.
Football is a game between 2 teams. If it was run as a league, it would need 225 games in the men's last time. There has to be a knockout format. It really is that simple.

To win the 100 m crown, you have to be fastest in the last race.
You cant fit all the competitors in 100m on the track at the same time. There has to be a knockout format. It really is that simple.

Olympic sailing (1 sailor per nation) can have all the competitors on the course at the same time. It really is that simple.

For these championships, they had 4 preliminary races to cut the field down, 262 entered in total.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Oh my ... discussions about race rules ... I actually wonder why the dismal coverage of the whole event. It is at least the second event, with Silt PWA, that has basically zero coverage. Does anybody care besides the racers? It turns out that an Italian won the Women race, and Italian windsurf sites like www.4actionsport.it/ do not even show the news. www.riwmag.com/iqfoil-world-championships-brest-2022-marta/ does in an incomprehensible article reporting about the race format.

Its spelt Sylt.
Live stream coverage is down to money.
Drone coverage at Brest wasnt, great, but I guess you get what you pay for.
Covering a sport where the course position can be changed in 5 minutes can leave the film makers a bit stumped. The start was about 1km from the shore. The finish was close to the land, due to the SE wind direction. SE is rare.

Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Big nuclear naval base in Brest. Lots of restrictions on drone flying.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..

PhilUK said..

Its spelt Sylt.
Live stream coverage is down to money.
Drone coverage at Brest wasnt, great, but I guess you get what you pay for.
Covering a sport where the course position can be changed in 5 minutes can leave the film makers a bit stumped. The start was about 1km from the shore. The finish was close to the land, due to the SE wind direction. SE is rare.

Congratulations on USA's 72nd and 81st positions BTW.

Big nuclear naval base in Brest. Lots of restrictions on drone flying.

Thats miles away. On finals day, they had a drone at the start, but not one over the 2nd mark? An overhead shot there would cover sailors coming into it on starboard and port.

Like watching paint dry.

Foiling has lost its appeal especially for those that use race sails.

Wing dinging has been the big mover. Melville has been taken over by them.

Windsurfing has also lost many to the new in thing.

The higher level windsurfers have either stayed or moved to foiling. Few if any have moved to wing dinging

With the lower and mid level windsurfers a sizeable percentage have moved to wing dinging with a smaller percentage moving to foiling with wave sails.