After reading the Alu to carbon mast thread, is it worth the cost, I decided to do an unscientific test to demonstrate the differences in carbon masts. I suspect any low end carbon mast would be marginally better than a high end alloy mast but I can't verify that.
I have four 95cm carbon masts and measured the deflection of them using a large concrete block balanced in the middle. Probably 40-50kg.


I am not bagging any brand as I have had many happy hours and done hundreds if not a couple of thousand km on the worst of them in this experiment and until you try a stiffer mast you don't know any different any way. Also being the most used by far, it may have lost a bit of stiffness from new.

Original starboard carbon, 13mm deflection.
NP F4 Evo 9mm
Patrik standard carbon, 7mm
Patrik HM carbon, 3mm
With my 100kg hanging off the side of a 91 board and a 900 race wing this makes a massive difference to the feel of the foil for the better. Freefoiling on a narrower board especially with a lighter rider would be less noticeable.
My advice would be to go for the stiffest mast you can afford or in these covid days, that is available.
If foiling is your thing the cost is worth it, if you are an occasional foiler, probably not.


Wouldn't it be nice for us consumers for there to be a standard for foil mast stiffness. Unless you believe all the brochure speel the only comparison available to most of us is standing on your mates mast with one end on the kerb.
Happy foiling peep's, no matter how stiff your mast is.

Or you can also sign up on this site and get data on the foils they tested (not all).

windfoilfan.glissattitude.com/

I can't seem to register. Looks like the reCAPTCHA is broken.

windfoilfan.glissattitude.com/register

"ERREUR pour le propri?taire du site: Domaine non valide pour la cl? de site"

Thanks for putting some numbers to it! There is a difference.

Swindy, thanks for the testing and information, very interesting.

I presume they would be related but twist is another important aspect of the mast. I use the Starboard 95cm mast (original, not IQ) and if you grab both end of the fuse and twist you get more movement than I was expecting. When I am sailing more broad reach/downwind, I notice that I get some interesting feedback from the foil, particularly going over chop or through obvious currents, which I believe could be partly due to the foil torque-twisting. No proof to back this up though. Would love to try the new IQ for comparison if I had a spare $5k

In regards to the thread title, I'll leave it to others to make the Benny Hill jokes...

From what I know, a 100% carbon fiber foil mast, or a mast, does not flex more with use, it just breaks.

I have the original starboard carbon race mast and that thing flexes like a mutha fker. Its very scary down wind coz it moves around all over the place. Upwind its not so bad as its just like suspension but i wont go past 23 knots downwind coz i feel like im gonna crash. Part of that is my lack of ability, but part of that is also because of the instability of the mast.

Select to expand quote

Jules67 said.. In regards to the thread title, I'll leave it to others to make the Benny Hill jokes...

I was just about to..... OK OK

Select to expand quote

Jules67 said..
Swindy, thanks for the testing and information, very interesting.

I presume they would be related but twist is another important aspect of the mast. I use the Starboard 95cm mast (original, not IQ) and if you grab both end of the fuse and twist you get more movement than I was expecting. When I am sailing more broad reach/downwind, I notice that I get some interesting feedback from the foil, particularly going over chop or through obvious currents, which I believe could be partly due to the foil torque-twisting. No proof to back this up though. Would love to try the new IQ for comparison if I had a spare $5k

In regards to the thread title, I'll leave it to others to make the Benny Hill jokes...

I would assume that twist would also be related to stiffness. Certainly seems that way if I twist my foils manually.
Since using the stiffer masts I am finding the feedback you get through the feet from the foil is far more positive and actions and reactions are far less aggressive. With a bendy mast you are sometimes left wondering "what the f**k happened there".
Even though I'm not that fast it's definitely giving me the confidence to push a bit harder and my top speed of the day not being followed by a big crash.
You guys over east are getting pretty fast. Good to see, keep it up.
No pun intended.

Don't assume that bend is related to twist. In formula days the custom fin makers did a ton of research and testing of fins with various bends and various twists. It mostly depends on the fiber layup. Axial vs X vs chord and everything in between. Thickness also plays a role.

Please Sir,,, I know I live in a small backwards country west of Europe that no else in the world really cares about so I shouldn't be surprised, but how do I get my hands on a Patrik Foil?
Let alone two! The Patrik UK site lists no foils and although I am friendly with the nearest importer he tells me they are not for sale yet.
Will just have to carry on winging the Armstrong's and Windfoiling AFS.
Best not to try a deflection test on an 85cm Armstrong fine for winging.

Select to expand quote

FarNorthSurfer said..
Please Sir,,, I know I live in a small backwards country west of Europe that no else in the world really cares about so I shouldn't be surprised, but how do I get my hands on a Patrik Foil?
Let alone two! The Patrik UK site lists no foils and although I am friendly with the nearest importer he tells me they are not for sale yet.
Will just have to carry on winging the Armstrong's and Windfoiling AFS.
Best not to try a deflection test on an 85cm Armstrong fine for winging.

They're definitely for sale. I guess we're kinda lucky here in WA, having a direct connection, there's been a bit of an influx of Patrick gear as a result. Not too sure why distributor is saying otherwise though?

Great testing Swindy, and very interesting
Is there any chance you can get hold of a locals Starboard Alloy Mast 95 and run the same test
Be interesting to see how it compares in flex to budget Starboard Carbon option
Cheers
Rod

Airsail on this forum did some testing too. FYI.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Phantasm-Kite-Foil?page=5

Select to expand quote

Freeflight said..
Great testing Swindy, and very interesting
Is there any chance you can get hold of a locals Starboard Alloy Mast 95 and run the same test
Be interesting to see how it compares in flex to budget Starboard Carbon option
Cheers
Rod

Sorry Rod, I don't know anyone with the alloy mast. If someone local with one near me reads this and drops me a message would be happy to do so.

Select to expand quote

FarNorthSurfer said..
Please Sir,,, I know I live in a small backwards country west of Europe that no else in the world really cares about so I shouldn't be surprised, but how do I get my hands on a Patrik Foil?
Let alone two! The Patrik UK site lists no foils and although I am friendly with the nearest importer he tells me they are not for sale yet.
Will just have to carry on winging the Armstrong's and Windfoiling AFS.
Best not to try a deflection test on an 85cm Armstrong fine for winging.

They do exist. Patrik had these on display recently at a local event in Perth.
I have no idea how you would get your hands on one in your neck of the woods.

Foil Mast deflectionTorsion deflection v Bend deflection

Foil Type 6.25kg at 35cm lever 10kg at 70cm
at 70cm mast


Fanatic Flow 900 4.5mm 9 mm

Manta Mono V2 2018 4.5mm 10mm

Axis 19mm 2019 5mm 9.5mm

Phantom Foil 800 2019 5.5mm 4mm

Starboard 800 Race 2018 5.5mm 12mm

NP F4 Evo 2017 7mm 10mm

Slingshot Hoverglide 90 2019 7mm 13mm

Some locally available masts which I deflection tested using the same method as the 'Glissattitude' site.
Actual load info here whereas 'Glissattitude' ranked deflection as a percentage of the best mast they had measured.
Presumably so as not to offend manufacturers?
The best they had measured was the F4 2021 Race Foil.

Select to expand quote

Te Hau said..
Some locally available masts which I deflection tested using the same method as the 'Glissattitude' site.
Actual load info here whereas 'Glissattitude' ranked deflection as a percentage of the best mast they had measured.
Presumably so as not to offend manufacturers?
The best they had measured was the F4 2021 Race Foil.

Oops that copy/paste didn't work well
The first figure is torsion deflection.

Select to expand quote

Swindy said..

Freeflight said..
Great testing Swindy, and very interesting
Is there any chance you can get hold of a locals Starboard Alloy Mast 95 and run the same test
Be interesting to see how it compares in flex to budget Starboard Carbon option
Cheers
Rod

Sorry Rod, I don't know anyone with the alloy mast. If someone local with one near me reads this and drops me a message would be happy to do so.

Thanks for that Swindy, no problem
From just comparing the Alloy 95 to first series carbon on beach mounted in the board it seemed the Ali had less flex and twist than the carbon, this may not be case I might be dreaming

Select to expand quote

Te Hau said..
Foil Mast deflectionTorsion deflection v Bend deflection

Foil Type 6.25kg at 35cm lever 10kg at 70cm
at 70cm mast


Fanatic Flow 900 4.5mm 9 mm

Manta Mono V2 2018 4.5mm 10mm

Axis 19mm 2019 5mm 9.5mm

Phantom Foil 800 2019 5.5mm 4mm

Starboard 800 Race 2018 5.5mm 12mm

NP F4 Evo 2017 7mm 10mm

Slingshot Hoverglide 90 2019 7mm 13mm

Thanks for posting.
Some interesting results. Looks like I can't assume a stiffer mast will have less twist.

Select to expand quote

Te Hau said..
Foil Mast deflectionTorsion deflection v Bend deflection

Foil Type 6.25kg at 35cm lever 10kg at 70cm
at 70cm mast


Fanatic Flow 900 4.5mm 9 mm Aluminum

Manta Mono V2 2018 4.5mm 10mm ?

Axis 19mm 2019 5mm 9.5mm Aluminum?

Phantom Foil 800 2019 5.5mm 4mm Carbon?

Starboard 800 Race 2018 5.5mm 12mm Carbon?

NP F4 Evo 2017 7mm 10mm Carbon?

Slingshot Hoverglide 90 2019 7mm 13mm Aluminum

Which foils are aluminum and which ones are carbon? I know the Flow and Hoverglide are aluminum. For the others I'm guessing.

Seems if want a no compromise stiff mast and wings, F4 2021 HM and Phantom R are right up there (Not Phantom X), but if you are happy with jelly (and this works well for many of us) then there are plenty of other options, we can't all be stiff

Select to expand quote

Freeflight said..
Seems if want a no compromise stiff mast and wings, F4 2021 HM and Phantom R are right up there (Not Phantom X), but if you are happy with jelly (and this works well for many of us) then there are plenty of other options, we can't all be stiff

Really depends on your style of riding. Sometimes it is good to have a stiff mast and other times just gets you in trouble.

Select to expand quote

Swindy said..

Jules67 said..
Swindy, thanks for the testing and information, very interesting.

I presume they would be related but twist is another important aspect of the mast. I use the Starboard 95cm mast (original, not IQ) and if you grab both end of the fuse and twist you get more movement than I was expecting. When I am sailing more broad reach/downwind, I notice that I get some interesting feedback from the foil, particularly going over chop or through obvious currents, which I believe could be partly due to the foil torque-twisting. No proof to back this up though. Would love to try the new IQ for comparison if I had a spare $5k

In regards to the thread title, I'll leave it to others to make the Benny Hill jokes...

I would assume that twist would also be related to stiffness. Certainly seems that way if I twist my foils manually.
Since using the stiffer masts I am finding the feedback you get through the feet from the foil is far more positive and actions and reactions are far less aggressive. With a bendy mast you are sometimes left wondering "what the f**k happened there".
Even though I'm not that fast it's definitely giving me the confidence to push a bit harder and my top speed of the day not being followed by a big crash.
You guys over east are getting pretty fast. Good to see, keep it up.
No pun intended.

You looked pretty quick and in control when we saw you at Rock Vegas the other day Rog. :)

Select to expand quote

Freeflight said..

Swindy said..

Freeflight said..
Great testing Swindy, and very interesting
Is there any chance you can get hold of a locals Starboard Alloy Mast 95 and run the same test
Be interesting to see how it compares in flex to budget Starboard Carbon option
Cheers
Rod

Sorry Rod, I don't know anyone with the alloy mast. If someone local with one near me reads this and drops me a message would be happy to do so.

Thanks for that Swindy, no problem
From just comparing the Alloy 95 to first series carbon on beach mounted in the board it seemed the Ali had less flex and twist than the carbon, this may not be case I might be dreaming

My experience with the alloy mast is its stiffer but the profile is a lot slower through the water so once i switched to the carbon, even though its scarier downwind, its lot quicker upwind so i stuck with it. Im trying to get the newer C400 version but its hard to get and very expensive if you can find one so I'm weighing up the pros and cons.

I remember reading a review by Tiesda You mentionning the alloy mast was stiffer (with double reinforcements inside and an angled profile) than the carbon mast, but of course being wider and thicker it was slower.

Select to expand quote

Maddlad said..

Swindy said..

Jules67 said..
Swindy, thanks for the testing and information, very interesting.

I presume they would be related but twist is another important aspect of the mast. I use the Starboard 95cm mast (original, not IQ) and if you grab both end of the fuse and twist you get more movement than I was expecting. When I am sailing more broad reach/downwind, I notice that I get some interesting feedback from the foil, particularly going over chop or through obvious currents, which I believe could be partly due to the foil torque-twisting. No proof to back this up though. Would love to try the new IQ for comparison if I had a spare $5k

In regards to the thread title, I'll leave it to others to make the Benny Hill jokes...

I would assume that twist would also be related to stiffness. Certainly seems that way if I twist my foils manually.
Since using the stiffer masts I am finding the feedback you get through the feet from the foil is far more positive and actions and reactions are far less aggressive. With a bendy mast you are sometimes left wondering "what the f**k happened there".
Even though I'm not that fast it's definitely giving me the confidence to push a bit harder and my top speed of the day not being followed by a big crash.
You guys over east are getting pretty fast. Good to see, keep it up.
No pun intended.

You looked pretty quick and in control when we saw you at Rock Vegas the other day Rog. :)

Thanks for the kind words Matt. It was great to have six of us out there on Saturday enjoying the fantastic conditions. It's usually just me and a few pelicans.
Compared to the 3 local fast guys I don't feel I'm that fast. Getting the stiff mast recently was, I feel, the final part of the jigsaw to maximising my speed. I doubt at my age I will ever match them but I would like to think I can bridge the gap a little.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

Te Hau said..
Foil Mast deflectionTorsion deflection v Bend deflection

Foil Type 6.25kg at 35cm lever 10kg at 70cm
at 70cm mast


Fanatic Flow 900 4.5mm 9 mm Aluminum

Manta Mono V2 2018 4.5mm 10mm ?

Axis 19mm 2019 5mm 9.5mm Aluminum?

Phantom Foil 800 2019 5.5mm 4mm Carbon?

Starboard 800 Race 2018 5.5mm 12mm Carbon?

NP F4 Evo 2017 7mm 10mm Carbon?

Slingshot Hoverglide 90 2019 7mm 13mm Aluminum

Which foils are aluminum and which ones are carbon? I know the Flow and Hoverglide are aluminum. For the others I'm guessing.

Phantom, Starboard and NPF4 are carbon others Alu.

Select to expand quote

Freeflight said..
Seems if want a no compromise stiff mast and wings, F4 2021 HM and Phantom R are right up there (Not Phantom X), but if you are happy with jelly (and this works well for many of us) then there are plenty of other options, we can't all be stiff

Yes and arguably the most popular (ie by sales) of these masts, the Slingshot, is a floppy old piece of work, both in torsion and bend.

Select to expand quote

ZeroVix said..

Freeflight said..
Seems if want a no compromise stiff mast and wings, F4 2021 HM and Phantom R are right up there (Not Phantom X), but if you are happy with jelly (and this works well for many of us) then there are plenty of other options, we can't all be stiff

Really depends on your style of riding. Sometimes it is good to have a stiff mast and other times just gets you in trouble.

Agreed ZeroVix, I too am a happy Jelly Baby