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thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I do not know if PWA has particular rules, but at the local/national level distance between buoys is at the discretion of the organizers and depends on the local conditions. San Francisco series used to have a long approach to the first buoy, followed by closely spaced buoys in front of the Marina. Cal Cap in Berkeley was much more uniform in the lay out. Also, what helps fin slalom in the jibes is the angle between the buoys, the closer you are to a broad reach the easier it is to complete a fast planing jibe. Figure 8 slalom is an example of very tight course. It is fun, but the foil would have a serious advantage at the buoys.

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thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

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Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

There's also the fact that foiling is still in it's "infancy" whereas the finn is at its culmination of 30 years evolution.
Some riders clearly also need to adapt: you see several of them "overshoot" the bouys as if they tryiing to sail a "finn" trajectory while using a foil.

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Bellerophon said..

Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

There's also the fact that foiling is still in it's "infancy" whereas the finn is at its culmination of 30 years evolution.
Some riders clearly also need to adapt: you see several of them "overshoot" the bouys as if they tryiing to sail a "finn" trajectory while using a foil.

Yep, that too.

I think pwa sailors are currently at a stage where light winds you'd be silly to not go foil. stronger winds it's more a case of riders needing to pick the mode they are most comfortable on. The catch is that someone that has the skill on a foil to pull off a clean foiling gybe every time is still gonna beat you down the course. But not all the riders have that going on yet.


As best i can see from event footage so far, it really is an even match on straight line speed. Its just rider comfort zones and foil gybing skills thats making for mixed results in stronger breezes

More nice images ; now if they could only include some 360 degree helmet cam footing

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Bellerophon said..
More nice images ; now if they could only include some 360 degree helmet cam footing

Hypnotic. It struck me while watching how this thread would read if we'd been foiling for thirty years and then fin came along. Those jibes look so smooth and fast on foil and then seeing a bunch of boards bounce through the turn (and sometimes falling off plane) would be a stark comparison. To what degree are familiarity and nostalgia coloring some of our takes here?

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Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

Just remember that there is a 25 knots difference between top foil and top fin speed. Make the slalom course with wder buoys angles and the foils do not stand a chance (yet).

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duzzi said..

Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

Just remember that there is a 25 knots difference between top foil and top fin speed. Make the slalom course with wder buoys angles and the foils do not stand a chance (yet).

That's like sayiing "there's a 500 mile difference between top speed on land {ThrusstSSC) and and F 1 car. Make an F1 circuit in a straight line on a saltplane and the F1 car does not stand a chance.."
Still, nice try

In the mean time rumour has it the manufacturers, alarmed by crumbling slalom board sales, have voted for a limit in min. wing span on foils, so as to give the fins a chance in stronger conditions.
Let's see how this tuns out.

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Bellerophon said..

duzzi said..

Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

Just remember that there is a 25 knots difference between top foil and top fin speed. Make the slalom course with wder buoys angles and the foils do not stand a chance (yet).

That's like sayiing "there's a 500 mile difference between top speed on land {ThrusstSSC) and and F 1 car. Make an F1 circuit in a straight line on a saltplane and the F1 car does not stand a chance.."
Still, nice try

In the mean time rumour has it the manufacturers, alarmed by crumbling slalom board sales, have voted for a limit in min. wing span on foils, so as to give the fins a chance in stronger conditions.
Let's see how this tuns out.

This exactly.

Yes, there is still plenty of disparity between the two when you create the perfect conditions, but real world conditions, the foils are going just as fast, then beating the fins in the corners. You never see a pwa sailor pull out the speed board on race day, and while they can drive a slalom board to higher speeds on some flat water, slalom is rarely sailed on properly flat water like speed is.

Im still waiting to see the foils line up against the fins in conditions where the chop/swell is taller than a foil mast, because i think that will see a different result. But as it stands, in the majority of conditions i think the foil has the edge.

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Subsonic said..

Bellerophon said..

duzzi said..

Subsonic said..

thedoor said..
Anyone know the distance between the bouys for slalom? Would increasing this distance ie minimize the time spent gybing where foils have a significant advantage even things out fin versus foil in mod to high winds?

I don't think it would. Theyre travelling very close to the same speed down the course. It a very negligible difference in speed. Its a much more even balance when its blowing and theres chop at the gybe marks. Touching down halfway through a gybe or coming through a bit wobbly on the foil is just as costly as coming off the plane on the fin.

Just remember that there is a 25 knots difference between top foil and top fin speed. Make the slalom course with wder buoys angles and the foils do not stand a chance (yet).

That's like sayiing "there's a 500 mile difference between top speed on land {ThrusstSSC) and and F 1 car. Make an F1 circuit in a straight line on a saltplane and the F1 car does not stand a chance.."
Still, nice try

In the mean time rumour has it the manufacturers, alarmed by crumbling slalom board sales, have voted for a limit in min. wing span on foils, so as to give the fins a chance in stronger conditions.
Let's see how this tuns out.

This exactly.

Yes, there is still plenty of disparity between the two when you create the perfect conditions, but real world conditions, the foils are going just as fast, then beating the fins in the corners. You never see a pwa sailor pull out the speed board on race day, and while they can drive a slalom board to higher speeds on some flat water, slalom is rarely sailed on properly flat water like speed is.

Im still waiting to see the foils line up against the fins in conditions where the chop/swell is taller than a foil mast, because i think that will see a different result. But as it stands, in the majority of conditions i think the foil has the edge.

Of course, fin PWA never really crosses 34-38 knots, the "open sea" barrier that is so difficult to pass even for pros. That is faster than what a foil can do and the reason the foils are showing an advantage is simply because (a) they have better light air threshold, and (2) the courses are not designed to favor fins (not that they should). Again: run a figure 8 slalom and jibes are 90% of the game, open up the course to have buoys on a broad reach with long legs between the buoys and the jibes will count for almost nothing and fins will have the upper end.

And that, that how you put down buoys can determine who wins, is one of the many reasons why racing fins and foils together is just plain silly. The only reason PWA still runs these mixed events is marketing, to keep fin and foil buyers on board. Pick one class,foil of course, and move on.

not sure that "this is faster than a foil can do"; Nico's posted top speed is over 37kn (and his 2s max is over 39kn), so the development gap is being closed very quickly...

either way, as far as the PWA is concerned, there appears to have been a vote this week amongst the manufacturers to change the gear limitations (again) for next year, limiting the size/number of front wings. not much detail for the moment, guess we'll know more soon.

I heard just two foils allowed. Urgh.
and for anyone that says foil races are just a procession some of the minor heats especially were very dynamic!

Eg

Yep 2 front wings only with uncertainty remaining around how to define (surface area, span,.?) the minimum dimensions of the "small" wing. Not much time left either before cutoff for 2023 gear registration.

Just a band aid before it all goes south. They have to figure out a away to separate the two yet keep it exciting.

The argument I often hear is there isn't enough money. The trouble is it isn't the same pot of money. The event sponsors with the money, are in light wind locations. The majority of manufacturer aren't making any money out of foiling gear. They make a little out of windsurfing. The tour can't survive without manufacturer support. Sales of foil gear isn't expanding.

And you have winging ready to eat everyone's lunch. Check out the winging world tour

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berowne said..
I heard just two foils allowed. Urgh.
and for anyone that says foil races are just a procession some of the minor heats especially were very dynamic!

I can watch videos like that over, and over, and over...

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Paducah said..

berowne said..
I heard just two foils allowed. Urgh.
and for anyone that says foil races are just a procession some of the minor heats especially were very dynamic!

I can watch videos like that over, and over, and over...

I skipped it until your statement. And it is totally awesome

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choco said..

mr love said..
Don,t think you need to be a brain surgeon to figure out fin is dead for PWA Racing unless they split the disciplines. Once the rest of the pros get to Goyards skill level on a foil none of them will use fins. While it is a mixed comp what discipline are they going to practice?? foil of course unless they want to hand the championship to Nico so the skill level on foil will continue to rise and the foils will get better with R&D.
As for recreational racing...different story.

Has the moth concept been tried in windsurfing foils?

There are technical limitations to that concept; the rod touching the water getting feedback on boat height need to be at a distance from the stabilizer on the back in order to give time to react and adjust eight; the higher the speed, the more this is critical, it is a mechanical device with several limitations. Mooth boats are slower and longer than a windsurf foil board is these days.

Apart from this technical considerations, personally I would love the sport to keep being rider centered, avoiding going in directions where rider ability is going to be neglected as a factor and Engineering takes the lead. This happened in forula 1, in Amerca's cup sailing and moto GP recently where Gigi Dall'Igna who is a great Engineer and Manager made Ducati win the world title but killed the sport. In the past a good rider was making the difference vs the other big time, these days as you see the gap is minimal...they will soon race with the playstation...I still like to go to the see and prove myself better than others by tehcnical ability not by money spent on the gear.

On the foil vs fin, I do see a very steep evolution of the foil, they where pretty unstable and weird just few years ago, looking at the race these days they really seem evolved a lot and the ride is powerfull and brilliant, I do not see any future for fin slalom racing whcih has no or little margin to improve nor from riders technical abilities, nor from equipment point of view. while both have huge margin still on the foil side...impressive

Oh, and afaik no more foil/fin mixing on the course (but a single slalom ranking).

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thedoor said..

Paducah said..

berowne said..
I heard just two foils allowed. Urgh.
and for anyone that says foil races are just a procession some of the minor heats especially were very dynamic!

I can watch videos like that over, and over, and over...

I skipped it until your statement. And it is totally awesome

That was great! I hadn't been able to watch earlier and saw Goyard take a big touch down and keep going. And cool to see Albeau putting on a good race.

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racerX said..
Just a band aid before it all goes south. They have to figure out a away to separate the two yet keep it exciting.

The argument I often hear is there isn't enough money. The trouble is it isn't the same pot of money. The event sponsors with the money, are in light wind locations. The majority of manufacturer aren't making any money out of foiling gear. They make a little out of windsurfing. The tour can't survive without manufacturer support. Sales of foil gear isn't expanding.

And you have winging ready to eat everyone's lunch. Check out the winging world tour

I think they should focus on profiting the content on-line somehow
Put GPS trackers + 360 degree headcams on riders + proper commentary
Have them stitched together for great content.
Make sure there is plenty of time for sponsors ect.
Gives option to have events on locations that have top conditions.
Do a red bull storm chase style setup. Have top 20 riders on standby and when conditions are perfect you race.
Top riders will be selected from last years big events / ranking.
I mean nobody wants to see top wave riders struggling to plane and catch a messy wave. We want them going of in nuking conditions.

Going 30+ knots on a foil or fin on the open ocean looks fast from a drone but is absolutely terrifying from the riders perspective.
Imagine in VR.
Riding big waves and hitting massive doubles in wave must be impressive too.

We had some big crashes in Japan. That is something people will watch.

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bel29 said..
Oh, and afaik no more foil/fin mixing on the course (but a single slalom ranking).

Hang on so what are the changes?

limit on foil size?
fins/foils not competing at the same time?

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thedoor said..

bel29 said..
Oh, and afaik no more foil/fin mixing on the course (but a single slalom ranking).

Hang on so what are the changes?

limit on foil size?
fins/foils not competing at the same time?

From here: surf-forum.com/forum/thread/26741-pwa-2023-und-2024/ the updated rules for 2023. Fin and Foils still compete together.

Equipment Rules 2023 (updated)
6 sails, free choice for sailors
3 boards, out of which 1 has to be a dedicated fin board
1 mast, 2 front wings, 2 fuselages and 2 back wings

After consulting with the riders we strongly believe that reducing the number of front wings is enough to match the criteria of changing from foil to fin in around 17 knots. Japan showed that in winds in the 15-25 knot range even with 3 wings available a lot of sailors were choosing the fin, so we feel that the proposed rules match the format proposed in the poll 100%.

Yeah seems I interpreted that wrongly - so they'd *like* to have separate fleets but don't *want* to impose the choice between fin or foil so instead try to achieve the same result indirectly by further limiting gear. and all this based on the experience of basically 1.5 days of racing in Japan. A bit strange all this.

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duzzi said..

thedoor said..

bel29 said..
Oh, and afaik no more foil/fin mixing on the course (but a single slalom ranking).

Hang on so what are the changes?

limit on foil size?
fins/foils not competing at the same time?

From here: surf-forum.com/forum/thread/26741-pwa-2023-und-2024/ the updated rules for 2023. Fin and Foils still compete together.

Equipment Rules 2023 (updated)
6 sails, free choice for sailors
3 boards, out of which 1 has to be a dedicated fin board
1 mast, 2 front wings, 2 fuselages and 2 back wings

After consulting with the riders we strongly believe that reducing the number of front wings is enough to match the criteria of changing from foil to fin in around 17 knots. Japan showed that in winds in the 15-25 knot range even with 3 wings available a lot of sailors were choosing the fin, so we feel that the proposed rules match the format proposed in the poll 100%.

cheers duzzi

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duzzi said..


From here: surf-forum.com/forum/thread/26741-pwa-2023-und-2024/ the updated rules for 2023. Fin and Foils still compete together.

Equipment Rules 2023 (updated)
6 sails, free choice for sailors
3 boards, out of which 1 has to be a dedicated fin board
1 mast, 2 front wings, 2 fuselages and 2 back wings

After consulting with the riders we strongly believe that reducing the number of front wings is enough to match the criteria of changing from foil to fin in around 17 knots. Japan showed that in winds in the 15-25 knot range even with 3 wings available a lot of sailors were choosing the fin, so we feel that the proposed rules match the format proposed in the poll 100%.

I think that these 2023 gear rules are workable for a top tier entrant that plans to only foil
My guess is some only used 2 wings and 2 stabs in 2022

Was watching the video below and it occurred to me that for both disciplines, but especially for foil, drones simply can't capture the entire drama of the event. What looks like a boring procession from a 100m up looks much more exciting at water level. Clearly, money is an issue and a very finite resource and it's even more difficult that all the action is inconveniently offshore. However, if the sport is ever able to get multiple cameras on the course, it will be a boon for spectating.

Watch the women at 16:20 below and the men's slalom later on. There's a lot of footage at water level and the difference is telling. Equivalent men at 22:40

Given that the sport has made spectator excitement a priority for 40 years, and it's become much smaller in that time with the pro circuit in particular suffering, there may be no real bonus in getting more cameras out there.

a few ideas for coverage Bring back X-Cross races. but with foils!!
360 GoPros for all riders with wifi chase boat
Gps data live from LCD-motion, sailmon etc
more drones flown be racer boys not film crew
foiling chase boat like sailGP


all perfectly cheap and achievable.