Maciek Rutkowski is saying that they are using foils up to 25 knots before they switch to fins for slalom racing on the PWA now.

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Maddlad said..
Maciek Rutkowski is saying that they are using foils up to 25 knots before they switch to fins for slalom racing on the PWA now.

This leaves me conflicted. Do I keep my foil ready 78 cm slalom board intact or redo the rear deck for foiling and actually use it (it's just been sitting in my garage for a year). Decisions, decisions.

As a recreational foiler, 25 knots is the upper steady wind limit I see regularly, and a 4.5 sail with 670 cm2 wing works perfect, so I guess it is time to sell my brand new DT weed and carbon slalom fins!

Personally for my windsurfing. Doubt if foil will ever replace fin in conditions where I can be powered up on the 86L board and 5.2M or smaller. Both for flat water to wave conditions.

Comparing a PWA top 30 rider to me is like comparing Lewis Hamilton to me. We live in different worlds. Have different goals. What's happening at the PWA level doesn't really effect me today. Just the trickle down of tech and technique with the passing of time. I can see that the future of fin for course, slalom racing become more limited to extreme conditions. 25kts gusting to 30+. Fin time is fun time.

Didn't realize the IQ complete kits include a fin. Why? Drop $100 off the msrp and keep the fin.

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OldGuy3 said..

Didn't realize the IQ complete kits include a fin. Why? Drop $100 off the msrp and keep the fin.

They thought that using a 9.0 in heavy conditions 20kts+ would be too much on a foil. Then people just started doing it anyway.

Want to try that 68cm sometime but it hasn't been used.

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Maddlad said..
Maciek Rutkowski is saying that they are using foils up to 25 knots before they switch to fins for slalom racing on the PWA now.

In our local conditions I do not even use my slalom board in 25 knots (I am on B&J). They are on a different planet!

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aeroegnr said..

OldGuy3 said..

Didn't realize the IQ complete kits include a fin. Why? Drop $100 off the msrp and keep the fin.

They thought that using a 9.0 in heavy conditions 20kts+ would be too much on a foil. Then people just started doing it anyway.

Want to try that 68cm sometime but it hasn't been used.

In the end when I did formula foil I found it easier in high winds with the foil than with the fin. Prolly why nobody ever uses it. Especially true if we're doing up/ down racing. The downwinds with fin are very scary in loads of wind with a large sail, on the foil its just effortless.

how things are changing! As Maciek said a lot has to do with the gybes. If you are no planning out the gybe you are done. However there is still potential for top speed on foils .

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WhiteofHeart said..

In the end when I did formula foil I found it easier in high winds with the foil than with the fin. Prolly why nobody ever uses it. Especially true if we're doing up/ down racing. The downwinds with fin are very scary in loads of wind with a large sail, on the foil its just effortless.

Brings back memories (or PTSD) of trying to go way deep overpowered on a formula board waiting to go over the handlebars. There was just so much drag to overcome on a formula board with the consequent sail pressure.

Lots of good footage here, and the debate continues

Go COVID!, perfect after race party to spread at (see end of video).

Don,t think you need to be a brain surgeon to figure out fin is dead for PWA Racing unless they split the disciplines. Once the rest of the pros get to Goyards skill level on a foil none of them will use fins. While it is a mixed comp what discipline are they going to practice?? foil of course unless they want to hand the championship to Nico so the skill level on foil will continue to rise and the foils will get better with R&D.
As for recreational racing...different story.

It will be spot specific. Weed or shallow water ,fins. Chop or swell , Foils.. ... speed in high winds , both. The brave and super skilled v normal people on fins

I am talking specifically PWA slalom which is what the OP was discussing. If they want to keep fin racing in the PWA they will have to split the disciplines or regulate what can be used in specific events as if its left the way it is fin racing is dead in the PWA.
You just need to put yourself in the position of a pro racer. Limited budgets, limited recources and time. You have seen what can be done on foils and how fast the sport is evolving. Where are you going to put your efforts? The smart guys will put their efforts into foiling and those that don,t will need to get used to being beaten by the ones that do.
Then you have the fact that Olympic Windsurfing is now on foils. It will have support and funding from Governments, so the pool of young, talented, aspiring athletes will be feeding into the PWA racing from a foiling background.

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mr love said..
Don,t think you need to be a brain surgeon to figure out fin is dead for PWA Racing unless they split the disciplines. Once the rest of the pros get to Goyards skill level on a foil none of them will use fins. While it is a mixed comp what discipline are they going to practice?? foil of course unless they want to hand the championship to Nico so the skill level on foil will continue to rise and the foils will get better with R&D.
As for recreational racing...different story.

Has the moth concept been tried in windsurfing foils?

That would be interesting....

I'm wondering if a lot of the issues with high wind foiling are also equipment related, which then means lack of training.

A lot of the people running Defi this year didn't even have an appropriate cammed slalom sail for fin, so they ran wave sails. So, there's no way they had an appropriate full cam foil race sail either due to lack of foreseen need or their sponsors not even making a race sail that size.

Goyard was on what looked like the 3.7 3cam Iris R. And I suspect because they are making that sail, he's been testing it for a while. If nobody else even has a cammed sail that size, they just can't practice in those conditions with performance gear. It looked like Albeau was on a slightly larger foil sail when he was foiling. Looks like Neil Pryde makes a 4.4 4cam Flight Evo III. Wonder if that was it? I think he's got some weight on Goyard as well...

I'm not even close, not be a longshot, to the PWA level and there's a world of difference in feel and usability on the foil with cammed sails, at least by my hamfisted perception. The biggest obstacle with speed on the foil and overall skill may just be water conditions, with Defi being offshore and flatter than more open water slalom spots. If you need offshore wind to really send it on small, cammed foil sails, you also will eventually need a rescue team...

Amazing Results at Defi Wind
Against 1300 other sailors
465GOYARD, Nicolas111
Points Total 2,8
Points Run 1 22, (discard)
Points Run 2 0,7 1st
Points Run 3 0,7 1st
Points Run 4 0,7 1st
Points Run 5 0,7 1st

Using Phantom Foil R 350 front wing 175 Rear wing
Sail Run 1 3.7 sq mtrs
Sail Run 2-5 4.5 sq mtrs
Board Phantom 78 Foil Slalom

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chuckmaui said..
Amazing Results at Defi Wind
Against 1300 other sailors
465GOYARD, Nicolas111
Points Total 2,8
Points Run 1 22, (discard)
Points Run 2 0,7 1st
Points Run 3 0,7 1st
Points Run 4 0,7 1st
Points Run 5 0,7 1st

Using Phantom Foil R 350 front wing 175 Rear wing
Sail Run 1 3.7 sq mtrs
Sail Run 2-5 4.5 sq mtrs
Board Phantom 78 Foil Slalom

Legend. Some day, I'll be in a rocking chair on the porch, telling the young lads and lassies about the time that Nico G fella outran every* fin in France.

*I'm not going to be wasting my time on the porch explaining what a "throw out" is to the kids.

Slalom racing in our sport had been dominated by less than a handful of sailors starting with Robbie, then Bjorn and lastly Antoine. Sure there have been others who have won, but these three have dominated the sport. In Goyard, I think we are witnessing the handover to the next champion's era

Anyone else see a rebel fin only slalom tour starting up soon?

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thedoor said..
Anyone else see a rebel fin only slalom tour starting up soon?

I'm waiting for twenty five years from now when Starboard release the iSonic 85LT and mugs on Seabreeze wax nostalgic about how it was when real men raced and there were tactics and all.

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John340 said..
Slalom racing in our sport had been dominated by less than a handful of sailors starting with Robbie, then Bjorn and lastly Antoine. Sure there have been others who have won, but these three have dominated the sport. In Goyard, I think we are witnessing the handover to the next champion's era

Good point. Talent met opportunity. All the time he spent in New Caledonia just going fast and breaking stuff paid off in the end. He had a 10,000 hr (rhetorical estimate) training head start on the competition. Ultimately, his competition may well be someone currently racing IQFoil as a U21.

There's always someone younger with a far less developed sense of self preservation, willing to press the boundaries of the sport that bit further because they haven't been to hospital yet. By the time they realize they could die, someones paying them to live on the edge.

Interesting plead also in this video about weight classes (at 36:15)

Not only that, he and the team at Phantom should get more credit for thinking outside of the box and not being limited with the "foil only works in low wind" mentality. This is IMHO one of the key factors that helped with Goyard's domination, as he had virtually no limits when it came to designing the next-generation foils. Pair this with his and his team's engineering approach, talent, and a lot of dedication and here we are :)

IMHO it would be unwise to split the PWA slalom racing disciplines between fin & foil. If we have formula foil which is clearly faster on a course race, who'd bother watching a regular formula regatta? In swimming, freestyle technique is the fastest, but no one prevents you from swimming a butterfly in an open class :)

I'm not following PWA slalom tour that closely to have an opinion of how often are courses with rough sea state that might give the fin an advantage. Probably something we've yet to see (Sylt, maybe Bol if there's a strong 20+ kt maestral with high chop). But what we have seen is PLENTY of events with "not enough wind".

The DEFI 2022 showed that when it's blasting 30-40 knots, foil can be competitive when piloted by someone who's clearly a generational talent (PWA racing, IQ foil, formula foil). But others will follow, I'm sure.

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FormuIa said..
Not only that, he and the team at Phantom should get more credit for thinking outside of the box and not being limited with the "foil only works in low wind" mentality. This is IMHO one of the key factors that helped with Goyard's domination, as he had virtually no limits when it came to designing the next-generation foils. Pair this with his and his team's engineering approach, talent, and a lot of dedication and here we are :)

Yes - absolutely. Hope my original comment didn't diminish what Alex Udin and his team brought to the table. Phantom was originally focused on foiling cats so they started from outside of the box. Or, perhaps, they were already in the correct box while most have been playing catch up.

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Bellerophon said..
Interesting plead also in this video about weight classes (at 36:15)

Yeah, my 62 kg would be interested in that. Won't really overcome, as Subsonic describes it, "the realization that I could die", though. I've had too many interesting escapades already - nothing too close but enough that you realize a bit here or a bit there and the outcome would have been way different..

In Ben's gear video post above, Patrice Belbeoch mentioned foil is foil, fin is fin, lets bring back wave/slalom for fin and leave the flatter water locations to foils.
If you could guarantee conditions, a good idea, but you cant so I guess it wont happen.

For sponsors, foil events are attractive. No matter (except extreme) foiling races will happen. It is kind of interesting to see guys on foils, vs. traditional sails, wave sails... maybe just me but very entertaining. Maybe beach starts could be introduced again and make it really interesting.

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Here is Nico, interesting stance.

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thedoor said..
Anyone else see a rebel fin only slalom tour starting up soon?

I think numbers and wind conditions are against it. Sailors numbers are just not there to sustain two separate race classes. And even if they were foils can be raced in 10-15 knots, where fins struggle much more, making race organizers and sailors lives much better.

And than there is a whole new generation that is growing up on foil, which will probably make course/slalom/long-distance racing a foil only affair.

From money and sponsors' perspective: foil racing can be done in a variety of conditions, e.g. you don't need a perfect high wind spot to create a PWA slalom course. It can be done in other locations, where the wind is lighter but steadier, and the crowds are closer to the course. Sure, it's less "all gas no brakes" and adrenaline pumping, but OTOH, it's technique, tactics, finesse, and a learning curve for everyone whereas traditional fin slalom seemed to only have incremental improvements. The sport has evolved, though this also means the gear gets much more expensive compared to fins...

It will be interesting to see what the pros can do on foils. For us mere mortals, a fin is still easier or faster to ride in certain conditions, but also this is improving in favor of foil and tech progress. When I started foiling I never imagined I could control a big 9-10 m2 rig in 20+ kt gusts on a race foil, but now it gets enjoyable and not as scary as going downwind with FW and 12 m2 in the same conditions.