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aeroegnr said..
Went out for another session today, found a new launch.

I99 w/ 6.6 freerace a bit baggy.

Figured out how to pump. I didn't realize it was such a small movement, but it started making sense. My movements before were WAY too big. And, if I kept my back foot kind of rigid and just pumped the sail a little, I would get up on plane. Much easier now, but still getting the feel for it.

I think pumping I learned from seeing lots of foiling videos and just trying to tame it down.

I may try the I76 again soon, just to see if I can get it going in similar conditions.

My biggest battle is that my newer launch has no wind shadow, but a lot more chop. The foil or maybe the back end of the board really catches the small waves (sometimes about a foot), and really steer me all over. At least, that's what I think is causing it. It may just be clumsiness.

I was told the big low aspect wings will interact with a swell, assume waves too, sounds like that is what you are experiencing. The higher aspect AFS F800 wing is 1120 cm2 (discontinued, now make a 1080 cm2 wing) and 80 cm wide, it does not interact with swell/waves, great when a boat deliberately ran across my path and made a big swell, I just flew right across it, and boat pilot never tried again!

And minimal downhaul is good, but too little outhaul makes it difficult to pump the sail, I usually rig my sails so the sail does not touch the boom (with no wind), and is either just off the boom, or can just touch the boom, if I allow the wind to hit the sail while I am in the water. When up on the board the wind pressure is greater and more of the sail will touch the boom.

Interesting.
I find myself rigging with more downhaul than windsurfing, and looser outhaul.
Foiling does not load the sail nearly as much as hand pushing to check outhaul or windsirfing.
Now if underpowered, I release down and out.

Hmm, interesting. This explains why last time I was out I coasted down a small wave and was immediately up on the foil with the speed. Just today, the wind and chop was not in favorable directions unless a speedboat came by at the right angle.

I'm not sure where I want to take this, as in get a dedicated lightwind board like a falcon or something and get a high aspect wing for rigging with my 9.5 or if I want to get a wing next. Unsure. I like the idea of getting a wing and getting lots of attention while foiling through the downtown canals here....

Good note on the outhaul. The downhaul was loose but I think I had too little outhaul. The sail was definitely on the boom and flexing more than what you indicate, so I'll give it a little more next time to help the pump. Also wondering if I can pump the 8.0 as well...but the 6.6 can get it done at the moment. May bring the 8.0 and the I76 out next time and see what happens. I think since I know the feeling now I won't have to get my weight as far back with the I76 but we'll see.

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LeeD said..
Interesting.
I find myself rigging with more downhaul than windsurfing, and looser outhaul.
Foiling does not load the sail nearly as much as hand pushing to check outhaul or windsirfing.
Now if underpowered, I release down and out.

I rig sail with downhaul until I just see a crease form in the top 1/3 of sail and then release downhaul so it just goes away and cleat line. Andy at wind-nc.com recommended that to get the most lightwind capability out of a sail, also makes it good for pumping sail. Checkout Maui hot sails, they rig their sails on one mast length up to increase pumping ability.

You are rigging to get going in light wind.
I am rigging not to get overpowered, because it's easy to fly where I foil, but hard to hide from gusts of 20+ when the initial breeze is 4-15.

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aeroegnr said..
Hmm, interesting. This explains why last time I was out I coasted down a small wave and was immediately up on the foil with the speed. Just today, the wind and chop was not in favorable directions unless a speedboat came by at the right angle.

I'm not sure where I want to take this, as in get a dedicated lightwind board like a falcon or something and get a high aspect wing for rigging with my 9.5 or if I want to get a wing next. Unsure. I like the idea of getting a wing and getting lots of attention while foiling through the downtown canals here....

Good note on the outhaul. The downhaul was loose but I think I had too little outhaul. The sail was definitely on the boom and flexing more than what you indicate, so I'll give it a little more next time to help the pump. Also wondering if I can pump the 8.0 as well...but the 6.6 can get it done at the moment. May bring the 8.0 and the I76 out next time and see what happens. I think since I know the feeling now I won't have to get my weight as far back with the I76 but we'll see.

9.5 is a big sail to pump, sometimes I may do 1-2 short quick pumps to break free with my 9.0, but normally I do not pump my 9.0 in lightwinds, just get the Goya Bolt 135 planing and it comes up, or once planing press or pop the tail with my rear foot or sheet in a little to get up. Now I do pump my 8.0 when needed, it feels more effective at that. When I started I would get foiling just on the surface of the water, but not able to break completely free of the water, I learned all I needed to do was sheet in a little with my back hand and then I was flying, and could then relax my back hand.

I was told if you foil those big low aspect wings into a swell they will actually try to come out the backside of the swell, versus staying under water, that is what I meant by them interacting with the swell. The swell energy will make them lift.

Hmmm, well at least it will be easier to play with downhaul because I got one of those fancy duotone extensions with the downhaul ratchet built-in....

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aeroegnr said..
Hmmm, well at least it will be easier to play with downhaul because I got one of those fancy duotone extensions with the downhaul ratchet built-in....

Edited my comment above for swell after you responded.

I do not play around with the downhaul, just minimum downhaul as I described and leave it. Once you are in the air you want the sail to be streamlined so it does not slow you down, too much downhaul will make the top of the sail loose and so not streamlined.

I thought streamlined meant floppy leach, so the head is free to align with path of least resistance.
Tight heads provide more power, so they actively affect feel and control.
For pure low wind, tight leech gives more power, like how good freestylers rig their sails.
Me....looking for range, not just low end power, when foiling.

Since most of my foiling is in gusty condtions, I also need a lot of range in my sails. To that end, I use cambered race sails (or Flyers), downhaul to mfer specs, and always always always use an adjustable outhaul. This works.

Moved the mast back a smidge, wind was somewhere 10-14kts (sometimes dropping 8kts or lower), felt like I could've used the 8.0 in some cases.

The mast further back felt more stable. At least there was very little chop today. I think I could've moved my front hand back a little more here.

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aeroegnr said..
Moved the mast back a smidge, wind was somewhere 10-14kts (sometimes dropping 8kts or lower), felt like I could've used the 8.0 in some cases.

The mast further back felt more stable. At least there was very little chop today. I think I could've moved my front hand back a little more here.

Looking at the video, it seemed you were on a close reach? Or is that just the camera? If you were on a close reach, bear off more and, as you said, move the front hand back a bit and extend it to power up the sail as you come off the water. You can give it a couple of pumps as you start to fly to accelerate.

Could hear the excitement in your voice. Keep it up. It'll seem easy in a few weeks.

Yeah it was a close reach/beach reach, trying not to drift too far downwind.

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aeroegnr said..
Yeah it was a close reach/beach reach, trying not to drift too far downwind.

Use non-planing to go upwind. Wait for a gust. When you spot the gust get ready - but not yet. Wait until you are in the middle of the front part of the gust. If you go too soon, you'll accelerate out of the gust. You don't get extra points for being up 5 seconds sooner and it's really annoying to pump up on a gust just to accelerate out of it. When you are ready, make a 30 degree turn downwind and then accelerate. Get it up and flying, trim in for speed (all that front hand/arm stuff we mentioned) and then you can carve back to a reach/close reach. Use foot pressure to gently carve upwind as moving the sail fore/aft will tend to change to board altitude instead.

At your stage, getting on the wing is so, so much easier going reach or broad. Once you are flying and accelerate, you can then go upwind easily. But, first, you must get the acceleration and unless your technique is honed and you have decent wind, starting by going on a close reach is doing it the really hard way. Use the foil to your advantage - its low drag allows it to accelerate in lower wind than you are used to - but first, you have to fly.

You've got an 80-90 cm big, fat fin under you. Don't worry about getting back upwind.

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Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
Yeah it was a close reach/beach reach, trying not to drift too far downwind.

You've got an 80-90 cm big, fat fin under you. Don't worry about getting back upwind.

Hahaha thank you that made me laugh

Slogging upwind is really easy because, as was said above, you have this monster 90cm fin under you. Also, Paducah's description above makes great use of apparent wind, which really comes into play going upwind on a foil. Sometimes it's easier to pump upwind than abeam to get flying and stay flying.

aeroegnr, nothing like the first real flight times, I remember whooping like that too

Think the biggest adjustment to make is your boom hand placement, move your hands much closer together in light winds, you should feel exactly where the center of draft is because you are not windsurfing the rig and adjusting as you hit chop like you do with a regular fin.

Really no need to change to a 8.0 (it only adds weight and drag) with your 6.6 set the downhaul with just enough tension so battens/cams don't stick. Also work on being rig efficient, a solid pumping technique and pumping the foil with you back leg through the holes.

in the pic was a 5.8 in 10-15 knots

Thanks guys, I think I'm going out again tomorrow as the wind forecast looks pretty good, unless it exceeds that and gets into fin ranges...

Went out yesteday (not foiling) w/ fin and 9.5 and tried pumping that just for fun, as I was just under planing speeds. It seemed a lot more difficult than pumping the foil. But, I was way more relaxed. Seems like I'm expending A LOT more energy trying to foil/balance. Don't know if it's as simple as boom position or what, but 9.5/fin was really relaxing, but I also wasn't planing.

Probably just going to go w/ 6.6 and i99 (may try the i76 again too now that I have some real flight time) and try to focus more on wind direction and hand placement on the boom.

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aeroegnr said..
Seems like I'm expending A LOT more energy trying to foil/balance.

I'm sure that some of it may be position but a lot of that is probably that none of this is muscle memory yet. You are having to concentrate on every little movement and then get in the feedback loop of "I did this and that happened, so if I do that..."

That noise will eventually subside and you'll be up without even giving it a second thought. (We promise. ) I remember for the longest while that my first 5 -10 minutes of a foiling session were just adjusting my mind from "fin mode" to "foil mode" and the requisite stance adjustments.

Let us know how you get along next session.

Well...I had a short i76 flight. But, the conditions were disorganized, awful chop w/ some rogue 2ft waves from every direction that appeared and just dunked me, made it extremely difficult to uphaul and avoid the rocks. Onshore nastiness and it was hard to even get out with the foil.At least in position C where I left it, the 76 lifted off real easy without anywhere near as much back foot pressure as the 99, and felt way more slippery. I'll have to give it another try when it calms down, needed to have brought my wave board.

Welcome to our disease....

Reviewed some different footage and it looks like the takeoff speed is very similar to the i99, not sure if I can tell if it's the 1.5-2mph difference that the math says it should be...

I'll just have to try the 76 again on a flatter day when I'm not getting beat up

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aeroegnr said..
Reviewed some different footage and it looks like the takeoff speed is very similar to the i99, not sure if I can tell if it's the 1.5-2mph difference that the math says it should be...

The difference in takeoff speed between the i99 and the i76 should be larger than 2 mph.

From your description, it sounds like the i76 in C position is trimmed correctly for your board. With the 42 stab, the i99 would need to be at least 3 or 4 cm further forward to get the same trim, which is not possible with your setup. That means it is too far back and unbalanced. An unbalanced setup will always require more wind / speed, and be harder to control, than a balanced setup.

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boardsurfr said..

aeroegnr said..
Reviewed some different footage and it looks like the takeoff speed is very similar to the i99, not sure if I can tell if it's the 1.5-2mph difference that the math says it should be...

The difference in takeoff speed between the i99 and the i76 should be larger than 2 mph.

From your description, it sounds like the i76 in C position is trimmed correctly for your board. With the 42 stab, the i99 would need to be at least 3 or 4 cm further forward to get the same trim, which is not possible with your setup. That means it is too far back and unbalanced. An unbalanced setup will always require more wind / speed, and be harder to control, than a balanced setup.

It's possible that is true.
This board is also quite sensitive to mast position (with a fin as well), and moving the mast about ~2cm back from the track center (marked 130 cm from the rear of the board) really made a huge difference on the I99. Wonder if I would have flied earlier on the I76 if I had moved it that far back.

Here's the math. The 99 takes off around 8mph or so, and lift is linear with area but squared with velocity. So, if 8mph is right, then takeoff speed of the 76 is right around 10mph by the math. It's too close to tell in the footage I have of myself though.

This is assuming that lift coefficient and weight difference is insignificant. Weight probably true, and because they are similar design it seems like the lift curve will also be quite similar.

Seems if you can pump up to 8 mph, you can, with 2-4 more pumps, get up to 12 mph board speed.

Set the mast base fully rear. Consider shimming the stab when using the I99.

Went out today and after 2.5 hours of 8.0ish planing wind it died down a bit so I tried 6.6 and the I76. After pumping like crazy, which I could only do about once, I was able to get the i76 to fly for a very short time. I switched to the I99 and I could pump up on that much better.

I think the I76 needs me to have the wind 15+mph or so for me to fly it without pumping like a madman. I was getting up in 12mph or so with the I99 *I think* because the wind meter for this location isn't so good/close.

I'd suggest foiling more often to get in better shape.
I'm 71, often pump 10 or more to get up on foil, and do that at least 20 times each 1.5 hour session.
This foiling thing is supposed to be at least a little bit of excersize.

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LeeD said..
I'd suggest foiling more often to get in better shape.
I'm 71, often pump 10 or more to get up on foil, and do that at least 20 times each 1.5 hour session.
This foiling thing is supposed to be at least a little bit of excersize.

If anything it's pumping technique and lousy wind, I'm in pretty good shape and am actually down to about 190lbs (i'm 6'1 and am getting pretty lean) since I started this thread. I was going out twice a week on the I76 and getting zero flight time for a while.

The only person today that wasn't on a big wing like an i99 and flying was on an i84, and he looked about 20-30lbs lighter than me and considerably shorter. An older guy about your age was on an i99 and a 10.0 and he was sometimes flying. There were wingers out flying but I was quite a bit taller than them (and probably 20-30lbs heavier than them), and they all had big wings. It makes no sense when I'm taller and 20lbs over most of the other foilers to be on a smaller wing, especially as a beginner foiler.

Depends on windspeed.
Bad 5-13 knot days, at 165 lbs ready to roll, I can use either a 1220 wing or a 600. Only difference is 2-4 more pumps for the 600.
Other guys my weight or 30 lbs lighter are on 1050 sqcm front wings.
Our foiling time is about equal. Foiling 70% once we hit the windline.
One much more experienced age guy on i76, but foiling time about the same.