Thedoor and I were talking about this again last night and I can't resurrect this thread:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Best-non-foling-sails-for-freeride-foiling?page=1

So what are people liking now? I'd really prefer a sail that can work with foil or fin.

I like my new Simmer Evoq 4.7
Ideal range for me is about 15-23 knots

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BullroarerTook said..
So what are people liking now? I'd really prefer a sail that can work with foil or fin.

Essentially most power wave sails (Severne Blade etc) as well as straight waves sails (North Wave, Severne S1) will work quite well as long they can get rigged so they are not super flat.

Ben Severne's tip for the Blade was:
- rig sail similar to wave sailing in super low wind
- downhaul +5 to +10 cm to what is printed on the sail to lift center of effort higher.
- leave the leech tight, only downhaul until it's just about to go loose
- outhaul to what's printed on the sail.

I have seen other people do the same to wave sails from different brands. That said some people seem to prefer freestyle sails, especially if they don't do 100% down the line wave sailing.

^^^ points 2 and 3 are at odds with each other?
as a beginner Foiler I hated the tight leech as gusts were too significant. I discovered much of this rigging advice is no good when learning, you need a bit more power to get up on foil than what experts do, and u need predictable control. I rig my blades as intended and it was sooo much easier!

Wrong way round! Wrong way round!
i'm sure he meant the opposite to what he said on the downhaul.

He means lift the center of sail up with a longer extension and rig the sail normally as you would for foil (in his suggestion a tighter leech). Not downhaul block to block. It makes a much better feel on the blades in my experience, but freeks feel better and I s don't lift them this way as their center is already pretty high.

Tighter vs looser leech really depends on wind conditions and setup.

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aeroegnr said..
He means lift the center of sail up with a longer extension and rig the sail normally as you would for foil (in his suggestion a tighter leech). Not downhaul block to block. It makes a much better feel on the blades in my experience, but freeks feel better and I s don't lift them this way as their center is already pretty high.

Tighter vs looser leech really depends on wind conditions and setup.

Makes sense now, thanks for clarifying. But it does comprehend as "add more downhaul" without the context of what's trying to be achieved

Thanks folks!

I very much like my Superhero Dlab sails for this; incredibly light weight and very tunable for power off/on.

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bel29 said..
I very much like my Superhero Dlab sails for this; incredibly light weight and very tunable for power off/on.

Since I have Duotone masts I am very interested in this. Can you give an example of how you rig one for foiling? TIA!

I foil daily using Ezzy waves. Highly recommended.

I'm still very happy with my Ezzy Elite's 4.2, 5 and 5.7 for fin and foil.

for foiling i also reduce loose leach to a minimum.
and outhaul as normal.

When the ezzy's die on me, i'll probably look for ezzy's again.
Dont know what type though.

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BullroarerTook said..

bel29 said..
I very much like my Superhero Dlab sails for this; incredibly light weight and very tunable for power off/on.

Since I have Duotone masts I am very interested in this. Can you give an example of how you rig one for foiling? TIA!

obviously on flat water here (this was a local fun race a few weeks ago...) but you get the point: 5.3 (in this pic), downhauled to the min setting, outhaul so that the sail touches the boom almost all the way to the harness lines when under load => enough power to pump onto foil in barely 12 knots

Thanks. Plenty of people here have those so I should be able to demo.

Personally I like sails with a bit more stability and rig tension. I started using the 4 batten KA Kamikaze wave sails but found the board was quite pitchy when powered up as the sail draft moved alot. The 5 batten Killer was much better, more stable but still light and easy to throw around. The 6.4 I use is the Ka Kross which has 6 battens and a few of them carbon tubes and more luff round so a higher tension sail. Way more stable, still heaps of fun on swell and has a much bigger wind range.
Soft, pure wave sails lack stability for me as I like to blast upwind and then chase swell. They become a handful upwind and as I mentioned the board gets pitchy due to the instability. I like to have enough sail to water start if possible so tend to sail a bit larger sizes.... But maybe thats just me....

Yeah so why still the tight leech thing? Why not bigger sail rigged normal so it works properly?

My quiver... perfect

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Mark _australia said..
Yeah so why still the tight leech thing? Why not bigger sail rigged normal so it works properly?

In light winds, dropping 1-2cm of downhaul can take a sail that feels gutless to one that will get you flying. Anything from my 4.4 freek to the 9.0 HGO it is something to adjust for better performance. The racers here were mostly all on adjustable downhauls and they have a better feel for it, but it still applies for free riding. It can and has saved me from having to re-rig, especially if I have a simple to adjust extension (cyclops or powerxt) on the water without disconnecting the sail from the board.

+1 for Severne Blade 3.7m from me too, esp with the leech set tighter than for fin. I think they do a 3.2m as well which I'll keep an eye out for. (Larger sizes are Foil Freeks, largest 5.2m).From memory the tight leech setting helps with low-end power but also encouraging a "forward-and-down" pressure from a centre of effort that's higherup on the rig when a gust hits encouraging downward pressure on the foil? But, maybe I just made that up

I've never been a fan of the tighter leech thing on anything foil performance oriented -- whether it be course racing or slalom. And with foiling speeds now approximating -- and in some circumstances exceeding -- fin speeds, and sail size differences between foil and fin shrinking evermore, foil racers (perhaps other than those confined to a single sail size...!) are generally rigging their sails with as much loose leech as fin racers. any form of racing is about going faster, hence the need to be (over)powered; getting up on foil isn't the constraining factor (or to put it differently: if you drop off the foil your race is over....).

However, things are different for "swell style" foiling, where the objective is almost the opposite: you need to slow down to ride the swell. otoh, you need to be able to get up on foil quickly, and forget about the sail once up and carving: so smaller, lighter, and more powerful sails (for their size) is the ticket.

I'm in the stiffer sail / loser leech camp. I really really really love the S2 Maui dragons for foiling. I rig them the same as I would for fin. A thighter leech kills the speed and acceleration in my opinion, and makes the sail more of a handful in gusts. Little loser leech and flatter (not flat, simply "neutral" I'd say) outhaul tension will give the sail a lot more stability.

That being said, power to get up is not really what I look for in a foil sail. I know I can get up, what I look for is acceleration once up and a feeling of "endless" top speed potential.

I don't disagree with this, and my approach to rigging for swell style foiling was also informed by the specificities of the Superhero Dlab sails in mind in particular, which actually work surprisingly well with minimal (but not: no) downhaul for both foiling and (float and ride) wave sailing.

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bel29 said..
I don't disagree with this, and my approach to rigging for swell style foiling was also informed by the specificities of the Superhero Dlab sails in mind in particular, which actually work surprisingly well with minimal (but not: no) downhaul for both foiling and (float and ride) wave sailing.

I wish I remembered which duotone sail I used when borrowing Andy Brandt's kit during a lesson. I really liked the feel of those sails. I can't remember if they were super hero, super star, or idol. Felt like way more power in every bit of the sails compared to my ezzy/severne rigs.

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Mark _australia said..
Yeah so why still the tight leech thing? Why not bigger sail rigged normal so it works properly?

Mark, the idea is to use the smallest lightest sail possible. A tight leach provides more power in marginal conditions. You can always crank on the down haul if the wind picks up.

This works a treat with my North Wave sails.

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John340 said..

Mark _australia said..
Yeah so why still the tight leech thing? Why not bigger sail rigged normal so it works properly?

Mark, the idea is to use the smallest lightest sail possible. A tight leach provides more power in marginal conditions. You can always crank on the down haul if the wind picks up.

This works a treat with my North Wave sails.

Is tje reason I use Severne Freeks, rigged to spec they have a tight leech. Over powered there is still room to tune.

Just find what works best for you and your style.
This is mine.....

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Gwarn said..
Just find what works best for you and your style.
This is mine.....

That's fair, but as you know it's hard to demo kit. And I believe you said that while you love those (black) North Wave's you didn't like the white ones because the response was different? That's the kind of thing I'm digging for. I can't sail as well as you, but I'm working on it!

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aeroegnr said..

bel29 said..
I don't disagree with this, and my approach to rigging for swell style foiling was also informed by the specificities of the Superhero Dlab sails in mind in particular, which actually work surprisingly well with minimal (but not: no) downhaul for both foiling and (float and ride) wave sailing.

I wish I remembered which duotone sail I used when borrowing Andy Brandt's kit during a lesson. I really liked the feel of those sails. I can't remember if they were super hero, super star, or idol. Felt like way more power in every bit of the sails compared to my ezzy/severne rigs.

After thedoor took a class from Andy he asked him what kind of sails Andy likes for foiling. As you know Andy uses Duotone sails in his classes and his answer was "Idol, Super-Star and F-pace cam." He hadn't tried the F-pace non-cam yet. That is also one of the drivers of this thread: the Super-Star has been discontinued as has the smaller sizes of the F-pace Style (non-cam). Duotone says that those sails have a forward and higher CoE and hence they are better for foiling. That's generally true of freestyle sails and some wave sails are like that too apparently. Otoh, the Super-Hero has a lower centered CoE yet bel29 likes them. Of course, I have no idea what you used at your class.

I bought a quiver of F-Pace Styles and have been happy with them for the most part. Mine don't seem stable enough to do the one handed riding I see some of you doing AND I'd like sails that I can fin on occasionally. And since the small sizes of the Styles (3.4 & 4.0) have been discontinued I will move on.

As with many of these things the initial conventional wisdom can turn out wrong in the long run. Remember how we were advised we wanted 41" bolt to bolt? Even the PWA guys have brought the sail mast much farther back than they started with.

For foil racing I would typically recommend a foil specific sail (in my case, Warp Foil), but for free/wave style foiling I don't think a foil specific sail is necessary.I also don't do a lot of it (I'm mostly doing fin/foil racing) so I was looking for sails that I could get decent use out of; and while I don't get much time on my (fin) wave board either (but love it when I can!) I went with the SuperHero Dlabs. They're obviously not foil specific (so maybe not "the best"), but I found them very tunable and, crucially for free foiling, super light -- so for me they're perfect!

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bel29 said..
For foil racing I would typically recommend a foil specific sail (in my case, Warp Foil), but for free/wave style foiling I don't think a foil specific sail is necessary.I also don't do a lot of it (I'm mostly doing fin/foil racing) so I was looking for sails that I could get decent use out of; and while I don't get much time on my (fin) wave board either (but love it when I can!) I went with the SuperHero Dlabs. They're obviously not foil specific (so maybe not "the best"), but I found them very tunable and, crucially for free foiling, super light -- so for me they're perfect!

Have you tried the ezzy cross

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aeroegnr said..

bel29 said..
I don't disagree with this, and my approach to rigging for swell style foiling was also informed by the specificities of the Superhero Dlab sails in mind in particular, which actually work surprisingly well with minimal (but not: no) downhaul for both foiling and (float and ride) wave sailing.

I wish I remembered which duotone sail I used when borrowing Andy Brandt's kit during a lesson. I really liked the feel of those sails. I can't remember if they were super hero, super star, or idol. Felt like way more power in every bit of the sails compared to my ezzy/severne rigs.

My guess is it was the Idol LTD. Really a freestyle sail which rigs with hardly any downhaul and a very tight leech. Power is completely OFF/ON. Incredible grunt for getting on plane and then it depowers not by twisting open but by going completely flat when you sheet out. I have the North version in 5.2 if you want to try it sometime.