So my harness lines are 23.5" long, are they too short?

Sorry, no information on foil, board, sail, conditions, or rider, you just have to go with the harness line length!

Yes, too short for Grantmac, Paducah, Segler, and many more very accomplished foilers, including almost every pro racer.

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LeeD said..
Yes, too short for Grantmac, Paducah, Segler, and many more very accomplished foilers, including almost every pro racer.

Thanks LeeD, next time I want to find out something I will be sure to post it as a QUESTION!

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Sandman1221 said..
So my harness lines are 23.5" long, are they too short?

Sorry, no information on foil, board, sail, conditions, or rider, you just have to go with the harness line length!

That's about how Andy Brandt runs his lines (and very far forward too!) He basically rides the same duotone 5.2 in all conditions, with his boom quite high up near eye height. Too scary for me although I do see what it does for him: Very upright, relaxed position with tons of mastfoot pressure. Every time he sees me with my 34" lines he gives me a little nag about them and I shorten up a little until he's gone. I do run my boom very high though, and I mostly ride wider boards and bigger sails than Andy

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Wavesailing but very applicable to freeride foiling and why my gear doesn't change from 85L waveboard to freeride foil. I'd want longer on freerace/race kit.

And Jason Voss also, super short lines and waist harness.
I mostly use high seat harnesses.
Some guys on here would say they lack technique and are not good sailors and foilers.

And Jason Voss also, super short lines and waist harness.
I mostly use high seat harnesses.
Some guys on here would say they lack technique and are not good sailors and foilers.

Sorry, double post...would not enter 1st 3 tries....
And pros from 1988, using 1988 gear, easily can sail rings around ANY of us.

I do appreciate, and THANKS, for the new school vid about leverage and long lines.
Just does not apply directly ver Batum. And sound doesn't work on my cheapo cell phone.

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Awalkspoiled said..

Sandman1221 said..
So my harness lines are 23.5" long, are they too short?

Sorry, no information on foil, board, sail, conditions, or rider, you just have to go with the harness line length!

That's about how Andy Brandt runs his lines (and very far forward too!) He basically rides the same duotone 5.2 in all conditions, with his boom quite high up near eye height. Too scary for me although I do see what it does for him: Very upright, relaxed position with tons of mastfoot pressure. Every time he sees me with my 34" lines he gives me a little nag about them and I shorten up a little until he's gone. I do run my boom very high though, and I mostly ride wider boards and bigger sails than Andy

On my wave board he said I was a bit underpowered and shortened my lines. I think I've been running all of my lines a bit too long, especially on waves. And I mean as far as I could loosen them and still stay on the rubber tubing part.

Not sure the length as I haven't measured but I'm back to experimenting with it more. I'm way more comfortable on race foil gear with longer lines though.

Next time I'm on waves I'll shorten them up a bit and see if it helps me go upwind better.

Maybe....our line lengths are based also on gear we use most often? Besides likes and dislikes, intellectual analysis, physical dimensions, and maybe a dozen other factors.
My gear is based on fsw and freeride gear, up to 100liters.
My wave boards are 53 and 58 cm wide.
My slalom gear range from 55 to 68.5 wide.
I use 24" lines and a loose harness. My lines are about 9" above my hook when not planing.

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LeeD said..
Maybe....our line lengths are based also on gear we use most often? Besides likes and dislikes, intellectual analysis, physical dimensions, and maybe a dozen other factors.
My gear is based on fsw and freeride gear, up to 100liters.
My wave boards are 53 and 58 cm wide.
My slalom gear range from 55 to 68.5 wide.
I use 24" lines and a loose harness. My lines are about 9" above my hook when not planing.

In my case I'm not that experienced but now I know what a figure 7 stance feels like. And, regardless of gear, I can tweak the lines to that position.

For the race foil gear, it's pretty important because the mast base and boom height need adjustment as well, so harness lines likely shouldn't stay constant either. Freeride foiling I don't do enough to say.

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Awalkspoiled said..

Sandman1221 said..
So my harness lines are 23.5" long, are they too short?

Sorry, no information on foil, board, sail, conditions, or rider, you just have to go with the harness line length!

That's about how Andy Brandt runs his lines (and very far forward too!) He basically rides the same duotone 5.2 in all conditions, with his boom quite high up near eye height. Too scary for me although I do see what it does for him: Very upright, relaxed position with tons of mastfoot pressure. Every time he sees me with my 34" lines he gives me a little nag about them and I shorten up a little until he's gone. I do run my boom very high though, and I mostly ride wider boards and bigger sails than Andy

Thanks Awalkspoiled, the top of my boom clamp is 59" from the bottom of the extension, add on the mast base + shim of 4", and that makes 63" from board deck so fairly high, and I would describe my stance like you described Andy's "for steady wind" but when a gust hits I lean outward while pushing my front heel/rear arch onto the rail, to offset the increased pressure on the sail. Now the ends of my lines are touching on the boom, so that makes my lines as long as they can be for 23.5".

Based purely on having tried 24" lines before, unless you are 5yrs old, yes they are indeed too short.
no matter what discipline of windsurfing you are doing.

Was curious and here is what the last settings were on my lines, after I shortened them and measuring the 3 sets on the 3 main booms I use:

5.0/windsup: 26" (wasn't sailing long like this but felt fine)
9.5/windsup: 30" (almost powered but it was a lightwind day)
IQFoil/9.0: 30" (And this is very short for these lines. Just checked and they go out to about 46" before running out of tubing, looks like I have sailed them up to around 42" or so)

Most of the time I keep the boom pretty close to the top of the possible setting unless I'm getting overpowered.

Judging by my posture here going up wind this is probably around 42" and a little too long.

Apples and oranges.
Past 2 years, 6.0 was biggest windsurf sail.
4.2 most used foil sail.
3.7 was used 20 days.
Now you use 26" with 5.0. What length for 4.0, 4.2, 4.5x3?

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LeeD said..
Apples and oranges.
Past 2 years, 6.0 was biggest windsurf sail.
4.2 most used foil sail.
3.7 was used 20 days.
Now you use 26" with 5.0. What length for 4.0, 4.2, 4.5x3?

The smallest sail I've ever used is my 5.0 except when Andy Brandt handed me his 4.8 and the <100L skate, but I was mostly focused on not trashing his kit in bump and jump conditions.

You see the need of my using shorter lines?
If I owned a 3.3, I would use it for windsurfing, at least 7 days a year.
That's with 78 liter single fin wave boards.
Andy and Jason are long ago windsurfing buds of mine...from the '80's.

6.3-3.7 32" lines, just like other decent wave sailors.

How high are your booms?
Sunset Sailboards uses about that length of lines.
He's 2" taller than me, his arms double that longer than mine. He's the long armed and torso build.
I'm short armed and short torso build.
But when Andy Brandt and Jason Voss, both taller than me, also use 24" lines...I think your argument holds no water, nor is it valid for consideration.
Copying a pro setup does not mean it's right for you or me.
Sorry, Grantmac.

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Subsonic said..
Based purely on having tried 24" lines before, unless you are 5yrs old, yes they are indeed too short.
no matter what discipline of windsurfing you are doing.

Subsonic, here is the thing, with 23.5" lines I am balanced with the sail pressure, if I went shorter would be too close to sail and it could pull me leeward/forward and over into the water, longer lines and I would have to lean out more and that would increase my effective weight resulting in me pulling sail windward and over into the water. Now that is all with an upright 7ish posture.

That is just physics, and you cannot change that for me and my posture along with my kit and a given condition on the water.

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aeroegnr said..
Was curious and here is what the last settings were on my lines, after I shortened them and measuring the 3 sets on the 3 main booms I use:

5.0/windsup: 26" (wasn't sailing long like this but felt fine)
9.5/windsup: 30" (almost powered but it was a lightwind day)
IQFoil/9.0: 30" (And this is very short for these lines. Just checked and they go out to about 46" before running out of tubing, looks like I have sailed them up to around 42" or so)

Most of the time I keep the boom pretty close to the top of the possible setting unless I'm getting overpowered.

Judging by my posture here going up wind this is probably around 42" and a little too long.

If that works for you and you are comfortable, then keep it, now I am assuming all the sail pressure is in the hook, with none on your arms.

We often learn by imitating those with better skills than us - even if they are not built like us. There is still allot of variety in among the Gurus such as Andy Brandt vs. Guy Crib, Jem Hall, the Guys in the TWS & OTC videos & pro sailors & local Hotshots. However, if you have an open mind, you can look at different sailors styles & equipment choices & emulate those you relate best to. For me this means longer lines. Where I sail we have a Slingshot crew who are sailing small sails & short boards riding longer lines & sailors like Rob Warwick, Wyatt Miller the other Ex Berkeley Boys as well as many local Hotshots like Phil Soltysiak(Ex PWA) both Windsurfing & foiling riding longer lines. There other other like Sailwork's Bruce Peterson & a few other that run shorter lines. I personally relate to the stance of guys riding longer lines & I think most of the equipment is actually being designed around this type of stance so it makes more sense to me. I personally prefer 30" single point(Mono) harness lines for most sailing & foiling & I am fairly average 5'10" w/ about the same arm span. One area where I have found a definite advantage is if you run a very compact stance with front foot close to your mast(whether foiling or fining) then longer lines allow a bit more forgiveness when fighting gusts. With a more stretched out stance, once you rake the sail back into sailing position your boom comes down & your lines are effectively longer. When you are out of the straps in upright stance you will be on your tiptoes if you don't quickly unhook. this may account for some of the differences in preference.

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Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..
Was curious and here is what the last settings were on my lines, after I shortened them and measuring the 3 sets on the 3 main booms I use:

5.0/windsup: 26" (wasn't sailing long like this but felt fine)
9.5/windsup: 30" (almost powered but it was a lightwind day)
IQFoil/9.0: 30" (And this is very short for these lines. Just checked and they go out to about 46" before running out of tubing, looks like I have sailed them up to around 42" or so)

Most of the time I keep the boom pretty close to the top of the possible setting unless I'm getting overpowered.

Judging by my posture here going up wind this is probably around 42" and a little too long.

If that works for you and you are comfortable, then keep it, now I am assuming all the sail pressure is in the hook, with none on your arms.

Recently, yes, but I think a lot of my arm cramping months ago was due to not effectively using the harness for posture reasons as well as frequently pumping in very light wind with the 9.0.

My arms haven't been cramping as much lately as my stance has improved. I think 30" vs 34 or whatever I had before is also helping.

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gorgesailor said..
We often learn by imitating those with better skills than us - even if they are not built like us. There is still allot of variety in among the Gurus such as Andy Brandt vs. Guy Crib, Jem Hall, the Guys in the TWS & OTC videos & pro sailors & local Hotshots. However, if you have an open mind, you can look at different sailors styles & equipment choices & emulate those you relate best to. For me this means longer lines. Where I sail we have a Slingshot crew who are sailing small sails & short boards riding longer lines & sailors like Rob Warwick, Wyatt Miller the other Ex Berkeley Boys as well as many local Hotshots like Phil Soltysiak(Ex PWA) both Windsurfing & foiling riding longer lines. There other other like Sailwork's Bruce Peterson & a few other that run shorter lines. I personally relate to the stance of guys riding longer lines & I think most of the equipment is actually being designed around this type of stance so it makes more sense to me. I personally prefer 30" single point(Mono) harness lines for most sailing & foiling & I am fairly average 5'10" w/ about the same arm span. One area where I have found a definite advantage is if you run a very compact stance with front foot close to your mast(whether foiling or fining) then longer lines allow a bit more forgiveness when fighting gusts. With a more stretched out stance, once you rake the sail back into sailing position your boom comes down & your lines are effectively longer. When you are out of the straps in upright stance you will be on your tiptoes if you don't quickly unhook. this may account for some of the differences in preference.

gorgesailor, nice summary thanks, yes with short lines you have to be careful especially when out of the straps and on the water, if wind minimum is too low I unhook as I come down. If the gust are spread out will lengthen lines so I can stay hooked in on the water, but then when up on the foil will not have all the sail pressure in the hook, but with spread out gusts foiling using my arms to support sail pressure is not a problem since I have a long break between runs. But now that I have the Quicktune lines working better for me with flipped cleats, will try adjusting lines in flight.

I see little advantage in raising my booms 5" and using 8" longer lines.
The reason my booms are low....50" from mast base to center of boom,.... is to allow both easier waterstarting in light winds and increased pumping
Raising to boom only requires a bigger sail..

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Sandman1221 said..

Subsonic said..
Based purely on having tried 24" lines before, unless you are 5yrs old, yes they are indeed too short.
no matter what discipline of windsurfing you are doing.

Subsonic, here is the thing, with 23.5" lines I am balanced with the sail pressure, if I went shorter would be too close to sail and it could pull me leeward/forward and over into the water, longer lines and I would have to lean out more and that would increase my effective weight resulting in me pulling sail windward and over into the water. Now that is all with an upright 7ish posture.

That is just physics, and you cannot change that for me and my posture along with my kit and a given condition on the water.

Rethink the physics.

Even if you sail somewhere where planing/getting up on the foil is an anomaly and you just use harness lines to rest while floating along, you're still better off having that distance between you and the sail, if not more so. Having super short harness lines almost completely removes your ability to react to gusts when they happen.

im not saying you should have 32" lines, but 24" lines will have you waaay to close to the sail. Try running your adjustables at 28 for a while (give it longer than 5min) Believe it or not you will be able to balance everything up with longer lines.

If YOU cannot do it, then it's a clear fact....it cannot be done!

Experimented more today, 8.0 and underpowered on a fin, almost pumping to plane but not quite. Felt comfortable on 26", as short as those lines will go, with the boom as high as I could get it. Definitely felt more mast base pressure and easier on the arms but I wonder how it would be powered up.

The 9.0 on the race foil feels overwhelming in a similar setup in my experience except for maybe the lightest wind flying.

Should've checked the setup of the guy on 5.7/wizard 114/big HA phantasm today

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Subsonic said..

Sandman1221 said..

Subsonic said..
Based purely on having tried 24" lines before, unless you are 5yrs old, yes they are indeed too short.
no matter what discipline of windsurfing you are doing.

Subsonic, here is the thing, with 23.5" lines I am balanced with the sail pressure, if I went shorter would be too close to sail and it could pull me leeward/forward and over into the water, longer lines and I would have to lean out more and that would increase my effective weight resulting in me pulling sail windward and over into the water. Now that is all with an upright 7ish posture.

That is just physics, and you cannot change that for me and my posture along with my kit and a given condition on the water.

Rethink the physics.

Even if you sail somewhere where planing/getting up on the foil is an anomaly and you just use harness lines to rest while floating along, you're still better off having that distance between you and the sail, if not more so. Having super short harness lines almost completely removes your ability to react to gusts when they happen.

im not saying you should have 32" lines, but 24" lines will have you waaay to close to the sail. Try running your adjustables at 28 for a while (give it longer than 5min) Believe it or not you will be able to balance everything up with longer lines.

Sorry, you can not change the physics!

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aeroegnr said..
Experimented more today, 8.0 and underpowered on a fin, almost pumping to plane but not quite. Felt comfortable on 26", as short as those lines will go, with the boom as high as I could get it. Definitely felt more mast base pressure and easier on the arms but I wonder how it would be powered up.

The 9.0 on the race foil feels overwhelming in a similar setup in my experience except for maybe the lightest wind flying.

Should've checked the setup of the guy on 5.7/wizard 114/big HA phantasm today

Was out today too, 8.0 with AFS F1080, flying 90% of the time, smoked a remarkably athletic winger who was trying to race me for two laps, sorry no chance! But a few times the 24" lines were too short because the gust would blow by and then have like a back draft and had to use my arms for short times, but overall getting used to short lines in gusty conditions, never got blown over even when wind started to pick up and was barely in the sail range. Actually adjusted my seat harness bar to be lower down because I had the lines as short as I could but was still using arms too much. When hooked in, Could still stand with flat feet on the deck when on the water, but had to be very careful, otherwise sail can, and has in the past, pulled me over into the water.