Is anyone using freestyle sails for freeride foiling on flat water and open ocean swells? I'm looking at getting something like the Simmer Ace ( www.simmerstyle.com/sails/product.aspx?modelNr=10365 ) for small sail/large foil playing around.

The write ups on freestyle sails looks like something I'd be interested in,
-light weight
-low end grunt
-on/off power

Interested on getting some feedback from anyone riding something similar in the low to sub 5m size range.

Cheers

Yes

I've got a 4.4, 5.6, and 6.3 Freek. Tune them with about 1cm less downhaul than spec with about 1cm over on outhaul. Light, easy to duck, feel good backwinded, pump easily. Way better than freerace sail on slingshot infinity 76. Depower a lot better than a sail with more draft. They don't keep me flying as long as a cammed foil sail does if theres a lull though. They squirm a bit more when overpowered than other sails.

Panno, I have been using the Simmer Ace for over 4 years windfoiling. I rate them as the best option for what I do which is swell riding/freestyle and general fun. In fact pretty much the only sail I use now is the Ace 4.4m. It takes me from 12knts -30knts on. My Severne predator 95l. It's low end grunt gets me going super easy, with great pumpability and I use with slightly less down haul in super light conditions. I rig it with a super light mast and carbon boom, keep everything mega light and it just flies. I sometimes use a Simmer Tricera 3.7m if waveriding in 20-30knts and I'm jumping a lot. I like the instant on/off power of Ace as it really lends itself to foiling and is just super nice to use. I use a Kraken T93899K kit and the 899 wing is amazing, super fast and manoeuvrable. Kit I have now is what I have been waiting for for nearly 7 years of windfoiling. Go for the Ace sails you won't regret it. ????

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aeroegnr said..
Yes

I've got a 4.4, 5.6, and 6.3 Freek. Tune them with about 1cm less downhaul than spec with about 1cm over on outhaul. Light, easy to duck, feel good backwinded, pump easily. Way better than freerace sail on slingshot infinity 76. Depower a lot better than a sail with more draft. They don't keep me flying as long as a cammed foil sail does if theres a lull though. They squirm a bit more when overpowered than other sails.

+1 on the freeks. I've got all from 4.0 to 5.2 and they are exceptional for foiling, a lot of grunt and power, but easy to depower and control. Better than point 7 slash for example. I get going in about the same wind as sailers with +2m sail but indeed, loses its power more quickly than bigger cammed sails. Wish I had the 6.3 too.

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NicoDC said..

aeroegnr said..
Yes

I've got a 4.4, 5.6, and 6.3 Freek. Tune them with about 1cm less downhaul than spec with about 1cm over on outhaul. Light, easy to duck, feel good backwinded, pump easily. Way better than freerace sail on slingshot infinity 76. Depower a lot better than a sail with more draft. They don't keep me flying as long as a cammed foil sail does if theres a lull though. They squirm a bit more when overpowered than other sails.

+1 on the freeks. I've got all from 4.0 to 5.2 and they are exceptional for foiling, a lot of grunt and power, but easy to depower and control. Better than point 7 slash for example. I get going in about the same wind as sailers with +2m sail but indeed, loses its power more quickly than bigger cammed sails. Wish I had the 6.3 too.

The 6.3 is a good size for Florida. I got some helitacks with it, but the 5.6 is closer to ideal size but I need more wind.. And I can get the slingshot foil going in about 10knots, maybe a little less? 7.0 cammed or more if there is less wind. But, entirely different beast.

Ok, I'm in. Been looking at the Freek myself. Current big sail is 6.0 NP Fusion. Not bad but its a bit heavy and ready for update. 12-14 with it is perfect on my Axis 930. On the Freek side should I go 5.9? I'm thinking will be equivalent in power or 6.3 and maybe get going in a knot or 2 less without feeling big and heavy? Also sailing in FL, don't mind a few pumps to get going, just a bit worried going sub 6.0 for biggest sail.

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MilSurf said..
Ok, I'm in. Been looking at the Freek myself. Current big sail is 6.0 NP Fusion. Not bad but its a bit heavy and ready for update. 12-14 with it is perfect on my Axis 930. On the Freek side should I go 5.9? I'm thinking will be equivalent in power or 6.3 and maybe get going in a knot or 2 less without feeling big and heavy? Also sailing in FL, don't mind a few pumps to get going, just a bit worried going sub 6.0 for biggest sail.

Hmm depends on your weight. I'm currently about 195lbs. The spread between 5.6 and 6.3 is good. If you're lighter maybe a 5.9?

195 for me as well. If you could do it again would you go 5.9 or do you like the option of having 6.3 and 5.6?

195 for me as well. If you could do it again would you go 5.9 or do you like the option of having 6.3 and 5.6?

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MilSurf said..
195 for me as well. If you could do it again would you go 5.9 or do you like the option of having 6.3 and 5.6?

Hmm. I've been out when the 5.6 was too little except in gusts and when the 6.3 is good but overpowered in gusts. If I only got one maybe I'd get the 5.9 or 6.3, but I do have a 6.6 freerace (goya mark) that could do if that wasn't enough. You'll lose a touch in light winds. I've definitely had days where I wish I rigged the 6.3 instead of the 5.6.

I can definitely take the 5.6 more comfortably overpowered. I've also run the 6.3 on a fin and felt good.

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jb101 said..
Panno, I have been using the Simmer Ace for over 4 years windfoiling. I rate them as the best option for what I do which is swell riding/freestyle and general fun. In fact pretty much the only sail I use now is the Ace 4.4m. It takes me from 12knts -30knts on. My Severne predator 95l. It's low end grunt gets me going super easy, with great pumpability and I use with slightly less down haul in super light conditions. I rig it with a super light mast and carbon boom, keep everything mega light and it just flies. I sometimes use a Simmer Tricera 3.7m if waveriding in 20-30knts and I'm jumping a lot. I like the instant on/off power of Ace as it really lends itself to foiling and is just super nice to use. I use a Kraken T93899K kit and the 899 wing is amazing, super fast and manoeuvrable. Kit I have now is what I have been waiting for for nearly 7 years of windfoiling. Go for the Ace sails you won't regret it. ????

Great to see a new Seabreeze member. Love the Thumbnail, hopefully we can see some pics or videos (even better) from your local.
Sounds like a sweet setup you currently have. I agree, for freeride foiling the lighter the rig the better.
The Predator and Kracken are relatively new, what were you riding previously?
For someone getting out in 20plus knots, the 899 seems like a large front foil. Did you try the 799? Also the predator is Tuttle so how do you find the balance of the 899, what stabiliser are you using and did you need to shim it?
Cheers Simon

Cheers 2keen. Nice welcome, appreciate it. I do very much like my current setup. I had the 799, but could not get on with it. I found the glide a bit lacking, but I'm sure it was just me as obviously others are loving it. I do have the 720 Balz pro that I prefer. I find the 899 the perfect compromise for early take off/slow stall, and contrary to what you would think a very high top speed. The new Kraken comes with tuttle head specific designed shims to give the mast a 2-5mm backward angle. I have always used a mast shim as I find the angle really helps stabilise the setup for comfortable riding, I'm very much all about comfortably cruising as well as jumping/freestyle. It was a really nice surprise to open the Kraken box to fin sabfoil had Inc them now. Makes a massive difference. I do not shim the rear stab at all, no need, and I think it's the flat shape of the S425 that gives it a nice top speed. The slightly longer mast now makes it nice in the chop of where I sail, and riding swell. I moved to the kraken 1 month ago, still waiting on quick release, from the 85 Moses windfoil setup from about 3 years ago. It performed very well in deed and I liked it very much. Before that, been windfoiling about 7 years, I used Horue. I have to say that the Severne predator is amazing, absolutely love it and definitely the board I've been waiting for for 7 years.
As a new member I can't post pics or vids yet, but will do when I can. Not to show off but hopefully to give a view of my kit and location. Off to Greece for 5 weeks in a while so hope to get out lots.

love reading everyone's reports, cheers.

I have and love all the foilfreeks, the smaller the better. And a 6 foilglide for freeride. The 7 i sold because did not like it when the wind gets stronger. Got a 6.5 gator wich has a huge windrange, its very light and very handy and i can use the gator with fin.
My board is the alien 120 with SAB 999, 950 and 940.
would like to get more infos from people about the predator and sab899

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jb101 said..
Cheers 2keen. Nice welcome, appreciate it. I do very much like my current setup. I had the 799, but could not get on with it. I found the glide a bit lacking, but I'm sure it was just me as obviously others are loving it. I do have the 720 Balz pro that I prefer. I find the 899 the perfect compromise for early take off/slow stall, and contrary to what you would think a very high top speed. The new Kraken comes with tuttle head specific designed shims to give the mast a 2-5mm backward angle. I have always used a mast shim as I find the angle really helps stabilise the setup for comfortable riding, I'm very much all about comfortably cruising as well as jumping/freestyle. It was a really nice surprise to open the Kraken box to fin sabfoil had Inc them now. Makes a massive difference. I do not shim the rear stab at all, no need, and I think it's the flat shape of the S425 that gives it a nice top speed. The slightly longer mast now makes it nice in the chop of where I sail, and riding swell. I moved to the kraken 1 month ago, still waiting on quick release, from the 85 Moses windfoil setup from about 3 years ago. It performed very well in deed and I liked it very much. Before that, been windfoiling about 7 years, I used Horue. I have to say that the Severne predator is amazing, absolutely love it and definitely the board I've been waiting for for 7 years.
As a new member I can't post pics or vids yet, but will do when I can. Not to show off but hopefully to give a view of my kit and location. Off to Greece for 5 weeks in a while so hope to get out lots.

love reading everyone's reports, cheers.

Can you elaborate on the difference of the mast between the 85 Moses and current Kraken mast? Is the flex about the same and I assume the torsion is much better. Please let us know. You can also respond to this / not to hijack this read.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/SAB-Kraken?page=1#22

Trying to get as much feedback for others.

Well I had to try the freestyle sails as I got a deal on some older HOT freestyle Sails and also had a chance to talk to sail designer about their use for windfoiling. He believes the tighter leach, higher aspect and light weight make them an excellent windfoiling sail.

So I have only used the 3.6M for 3 days and the wind range has been about the same all 3 days. With lulls around 15mph and gust up to 35mph. The wind average being about 20 to 25 mph. I am still experimenting with rigging so I think things are only going to get better. So compared to the 4 batten wave sails, which I loved, I would have to say the freestyle sails are better for foiling and even wave foiling. I was on a SAB 945.

The same size freestyle sail has more low end power to get you going and I believe is more efficient so it helps me glide through the lulls. So it allows me to rig smaller with the same power. Although the power feels higher up on the sail so it might not be for everyone, I like it as it seems to give me move to pull on in the carves.
The sails really turn on and off nicely and although the reef swell is not cooperating yet I think there is more power with the freestyle sail when doing a down wind heel side carve than on a wave sail.

Freestyle sails are also built to take a beating and are as light as a 3 batten wave sail.

The sail designer advised me that freestyle sails can't be depowered as easily as a wave sail with down haul because of the tighter leach so I might want to still have a wave sail for my "small" high wind sail. But I will have to see as its early days. I am also interested to see how little wind it will take me to get going on the 4.4M as from what I can tell the freestyle sail is more pumpable than a wave sail.

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Hess said..
Well I had to try the freestyle sails as I got a deal on some older HOT freestyle Sails and also had a chance to talk to sail designer about their use for windfoiling. He believes the tighter leach, higher aspect and light weight make them an excellent windfoiling sail.

So I have only used the 3.6M for 3 days and the wind range has been about the same all 3 days. With lulls around 15mph and gust up to 35mph. The wind average being about 20 to 25 mph. I am still experimenting with rigging so I think things are only going to get better. So compared to the 4 batten wave sails, which I loved, I would have to say the freestyle sails are better for foiling and even wave foiling. I was on a SAB 945.

The same size freestyle sail has more low end power to get you going and I believe is more efficient so it helps me glide through the lulls. So it allows me to rig smaller with the same power. Although the power feels higher up on the sail so it might not be for everyone, I like it as it seems to give me move to pull on in the carves.
The sails really turn on and off nicely and although the reef swell is not cooperating yet I think there is more power with the freestyle sail when doing a down wind heel side carve than on a wave sail.

Freestyle sails are also built to take a beating and are as light as a 3 batten wave sail.

The sail designer advised me that freestyle sails can't be depowered as easily as a wave sail with down haul because of the tighter leach so I might want to still have a wave sail for my "small" high wind sail. But I will have to see as its early days. I am also interested to see how little wind it will take me to get going on the 4.4M as from what I can tell the freestyle sail is more pumpable than a wave sail.

Great real world feedback
Keep us posted as to how the 4.4 performs and what size/ model wave sail you "feel" it is equivalent to in low end power

For foiling, what I expect from my sail is to give very neutral responce to a gust : minimal down force on the mast foot with a sudden power up. I have found that wave sails can handle very differently on that aspect, and so far my favorite is the very low aspect chopper. But I'll soon have to change it as it is wearing out fast. Freestyle sail seems to be an option, as they are describe as having 'low grunt' which is appealing, but I strungle to understand what is described as 'lift' which seems to be good for a freestyle sail. I suppose that freestyle requires some massive top sail effect to induce rotation for airborn tricks, and IMHO that could make foiling very difficult for an average Joe as I am.

Some great conversation on sail design/differences. I've only used a couple brands so far, and only for a year. My .02 on my limited experience.

BTW, I noticed sailworks and duotone are now making foil specific sails <4 meters now. The difference in how my fringe wave sail vs foil specific flyer feel, required different tuning/setup to big degree. The wave sail when powering up tends to want to rotate the top of the sail forward quickly, which shifts my weight to the front foot, driving the nose of the board down under water. I run my UJ 3" farther forward which tilts the rig/sail mast back which counters the rotation. Maybe this is also part on the "on off" nature of wave sails that many refer to. My cambered foil sail has a much more linear power band, and seems to push forward without the head rotation which I like. I've never done any wave sailing (inland lake), so don't appreciate the on-off power some prefer. There's also a dynamic of sail design relative to sail size. For example.. I have two 5ish sails. One foil and one wave. I pretty much abandoned the wave sail in that size. BUT, when the winds are nukin', the 3.7 camless wave sail is a blast with less downhaul and more outhaul. The battens auto rotate and make hard turns/ quick jibes more fun. Speed is nice, but I'm in it more for maneuverability. I'm intrigued by the new smaller foil specific sails. Next years budget though

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WsurfAustin said..
The wave sail when powering up tends to want to rotate the top of the sail forward

Same feeling with RRD vogue sail I used. I switched to old Naish chopper and it doesn't give the same forwrd feeling. At least in smaller size (XS and M wich must be around 3.2 and 4.2). The XL one isn't great for foiling. I did the opposit with the UJ : I set it completly aft (and that is way aft on my custom board) to minimize leverage.
We are still experimenting foil kit tuning...

Adding to 6u1d0's comments above. I also use both Flyer and Fringe. What I find is that if you want a neutral response to gusts, you actually want a sail that pushes DOWN in the gusts. My old slalom sails pushed UP in gusts. This was fine for finning, but now causes breaches with a foil. I learned this the hard way.

Foil-specific (Flyer), or foil-compatible (Fringe) sails are designed with more cloth on top to push forward and down in the gusts. You also rig them with a bit less downhaul to keep the leech tight. Just the opposite of what you want with a fin.

Mast base pressure has always been important for finning. Now, with foiling, it has a HUGE impact because it now adds the third "foot" on a foiling board. You have to balance back foot, front foot, and mast base. Kiters and wingers have only two "feet" to balance. We have three.

More about the DOWN thing. Watch this video carefully. I think he's got it right.

yes this video is well known, but that's race/slalom kit talking. Definitely different from freestyle and wave kit consideration. Not the same goal.

The goal in all windfoiling disciplines--racing, freeride, whatever--is to avoid porpoising and breaching. We all want to have a stable ride, even in varying or gusty wind conditions. People talk about a stable ride all over the place, no less everywhere in these fora.

A sail that pushes down instead of up will contribute to a stable ride.

Tell me how your sail reacted last time you broke a uj ?
All sail push down. No exception. That's basic physic. Some just push less.

Latest up date on comparing smaller 4 batten wave sails to freestyle sails.

We had one light wind day so I got to try the 4.4m freestyle sail in 0-20mph and I think it has the low end power of a 4.7m 4 batten wave sail. But hold its shape better there by creating better apparent wind. Also is lighter with a shorter boom. Again the power is very on off, it does not have the smooth feel of a nice wave sail but may not be for everyone.

Now on the high wind side; depowering the tight leech of the a freestyle sail does not work as well as a wave sail. The freestyle sails are either on or off so its not as nice as a wave sail to dial in. I had a great session on the 3.6m freestyle sail with the wind at 25-30mph and gust up to 35mph. However it started to get less manageable once the gust got over 35mph. I went in and switched to my smallest sail. A 3.4m wave sail with lots of down haul. Wind was around 40mph with gusts over 45mph (highest was 55mph) the wave sail was more comfortable.

So I like the freestyle sails more for foiling but will probably keep a 3.Om to 3.4m wave sail for the high wind stuff. Again the feel of the sails are very different so may not be for every one.

I went out on my 6.3 freek and slingshot 76 today. It started out too light but then got going with gusts on the meter up to 18kts and maybe more, so I suspect the real gusts were probably more like 15 on the water.

Anyway, I went with -2cm downhaul and +2cm outhaul. Just set the boom 2cm over and pulled it tight. It felt much much more solid, especially in the gusts, than -1down and +1 out like I have been using. Pressure point didn't seem to move and no real feedback on foil trim from the very turbulent and gusty wind coming off buildings and trees here in the bay. Ended up sailing 25 miles total and tweaked the harness lines while on foil to get them balanced perfect. By far these are my favorite freeride foil sails. Was very relaxed just cruising and carving around.

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aeroegnr said..I went with -2cm downhaul and +2cm outhaul. Just set the boom 2cm over and pulled it tight. It felt much much more solid, especially in the gusts, than -1down and +1 out like I have been using.

Just to make sure I understand correctly : you released your downhaul by 1cm and tighten the outhaul by 1cm, is that your way of using the +/- convention ?
In my understanding of sail trimming, that should make a baggier sail, and move the deeper spot of the profile forward, am I correct ?

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6u1d0 said..

aeroegnr said..I went with -2cm downhaul and +2cm outhaul. Just set the boom 2cm over and pulled it tight. It felt much much more solid, especially in the gusts, than -1down and +1 out like I have been using.

Just to make sure I understand correctly : you released your downhaul by 1cm and tighten the outhaul by 1cm, is that your way of using the +/- convention ?
In my understanding of sail trimming, that should make a baggier sail, and move the deeper spot of the profile forward, am I correct ?

Aeronegnr's Freek may work differently, but on my Sailworks Revos (wave not freestyle), his adjustments would move the draft up and back, would yield a much tighter leech and the overall depth of the sail at boom height would be similar to when rigged normally but the battens would sit a little further forward on the mast. In term of how the sail would perform, it would be much gruntier when getting going, would pump more positively, but would feel much less slippery at speed. I set my small sails up that way when I'm really underpowered and don't feel like changing to something bigger.

If there's enough wind to get foiling easily on a particular sail then I usually prefer to set it up almost the same as I would for finning with a loose leech/lean entry. Another trick which I bet yields similar results to Aero's rigging adjustments is to use mismatched top and bottom mast sections. If I want that gruntier feel from the the 5.7 Revo (or 7.0 Flyer) I'll use a Nolimitz 430 bottom section and the stouter 460 top.

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6u1d0 said..

aeroegnr said..I went with -2cm downhaul and +2cm outhaul. Just set the boom 2cm over and pulled it tight. It felt much much more solid, especially in the gusts, than -1down and +1 out like I have been using.

Just to make sure I understand correctly : you released your downhaul by 1cm and tighten the outhaul by 1cm, is that your way of using the +/- convention ?
In my understanding of sail trimming, that should make a baggier sail, and move the deeper spot of the profile forward, am I correct ?

Yes

I think spec (without looking) is 32cm extension with 180cm boom.

I was running 31cm (not block to block on downhaul) and ~181cm (eyeball, not touching boom at 182cm setting).

I went down to around 30cm extension (bigger gap between block on extension and sail at 32cm setting, what looked like 2cm loose) and full tight on 182cm boom.

It's worth playing with on non foil-specific sails.

I haven't done this on, for instance, the 7.0 foil glide 2.0 or the HGO 9.0 because the stock spec settings are specifically for foiling, if anything I run more downhaul as recommended on the HGO by racers and others I've talked to, and adjustable outhaul that I move depending on angle/wind.

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Awalkspoiled said..

Aeronegnr's Freek may work differently, but on my Sailworks Revos (wave not freestyle), his adjustments would move the draft up and back, would yield a much tighter leech and the overall depth of the sail at boom height would be similar to when rigged normally but the battens would sit a little further forward on the mast.

Very close. On the freeks at least, the battens come up towards the mast with less downhaul but the extra outhaul pulls them clear and they don't have a problem with rotation. If you do -2down/+1 out it would mess up batten rotation.

If I were to do that on my other freeride sails, the battens would sit beside the mast and be difficult to rotate. The cut of the sail of the freeks is way flatter and they belly out when powered but not just sitting there.

Very big feel difference between -1/+1 and -2/+2 down/out. A little less power to get going but super stable.

At stock settings on the fin (I've done this fully powered up a few times), the freeks feel a lot different.

I'm also still using an ezzy curve mast (GT 60%) instead of a severne blue or red. Same with the FG2.0. Works great.

Tested the low wind range of the 3.6m Hot Freestyle sail yesterday. I was foiling within a 100m of the wind meter on my SAB 945/483 (1300cm2) and 130L board. I am 85kg.

Jeff, the sail designer, rigged my sail in the shop and showed me downhaul was not the way to adjust the freestyle sail. Just use out haul and from low wind to medium wind setting was maybe a cm on the 4.4m.
So I started out with medium setting and the wind average was 13knts with gusts to 18knts. It took a lot of pumping to get going in the gusts so I went to the low wind setting, maybe a cm less out haul. I did it on the water. It took half the pumping and I was able to keep going for 10 - 15 minutes at a time jibing on a swell or in a gust. The low end on freestyle sails is crazy, I would have been on my 4.2 m wave sail otherwise as my 3.7m would not have been enough. And I love my wave sails.

The wind picked up to around 17-19knts with gust as high a 24knts for the 2nd session so I tightened the out haul a couple of cm(even though did not feel over powered) and the sail was very comfortable. I love the weight and the short boom.

I will repeat myself, the feel of a freestyle sail is very different than a wave sail. As Jeff says you can't really "fade" the power on or off like a wave sail. Its either on or off. The tight leach delivers the power higher up the sail. So it may not be for every one. But when I want the power on for that heel side cave its there. And when I want to depower on the toe side or after sheeting in on a jibe, it turns off fast.

As far as getting up and going and efficiently when cruising along I believe the freestyle sail is better than a wave sail for foiling. However I am sure at "some size" (5m plus) a cambered foil sail is going to be better. In Maui there are not too many days where its not gusting to 12knots so I am pretty sure the 4.4m Hot sail freestyle pro is going to be my big sail. Which is crazy. I love this sport.

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Awalkspoiled said..
his adjustments would move the draft up and back

Sorry, here I am way beyond my english language understanding. What do you mean by 'draft', I don.t understand this word in that context.
For the rest I think I get it, and it matches with what I think I understand of how a wave sail works...

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Awalkspoiled said..... to use mismatched top and bottom mast sections. If I want that gruntier feel from the the 5.7 Revo (or 7.0 Flyer) I'll use a Nolimitz 430 bottom section and the stouter 460 top.

I've been using shorter mast than specs with my choppers. My idea is that being very lightweight and foiling, the sail doesn't get the pressure it is designed to get, so a stiff mast doesn't bent enough for the sail the get its 'loaded' profile.
I haven't played with hard top or flex top yet, as I am not sure I am to understand how it tweaks the sail.
So just to make sure I get your point, a stiffer mast doesn't bent as much, so it would get the sail to a similar shape similar to less downhaul despite the tension on the sail, is that correct ?
So, using different stiffness for the top and bottom, you can adjust the part of the sail that pushes hard at low end. So stiff mast section tighter leach section : is that a correct summary ?