AFS redid their main windfoil with 95 cm mast, no more T-bar, mast mounts on 94.5 cm fuselage with 3 screws with a 105 cm fuselage out in April, and new high aspect wings too 900 cm2 and 570 cm2, including a 700 cm2 and 370 cm2 wing in April. The F series foil with 85 cm mast is unchanged from what I can tell, still has T-bar and F1080 and F770 wings.

Nice looking foils.
Would be better if they were consistent with the units
900 cm2 1000 mm ???

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DarrylG said..
Nice looking foils.
Would be better if they were consistent with the units
900 cm2 1000 mm ???

1000 mm wide, or 100 cm wide.

I assume you have the 85cm mast and you obviously think highly of AFS. Do you think the mast length limits upwind ability or stability through chop? I often wish my 80cm Taaroa mast were just a little longer, especially when I hit big boat wakes and such.

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Awalkspoiled said..
I assume you have the 85cm mast and you obviously think highly of AFS. Do you think the mast length limits upwind ability or stability through chop? I often wish my 80cm Taaroa mast were just a little longer, especially when I hit big boat wakes and such.

Didn't realize that mast was only 80cm. You'll have to ride my Starboard sometime. That 15 extra cm gives some more margin for error.

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Awalkspoiled said..
I assume you have the 85cm mast and you obviously think highly of AFS. Do you think the mast length limits upwind ability or stability through chop? I often wish my 80cm Taaroa mast were just a little longer, especially when I hit big boat wakes and such.

Not the guy you were asking but having had the 85 and now the 95 AFS, yes. In wind swell, I found it too easy to foil out mid jibe on the 85 on breezy days. I'd grown acclimated to a 95 mast on my freerace foil which made things worse. It also adds a bit of confidence going upwind in steep chop because you can be a bit higher and not have to choose either slapping the top of the chop or worry about foiling out in the trough.

We, too, have big boat wakes and that certainly can be a factor at certain times of year. Unfortunately, for the next couple of months is "big boat" season here.

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Awalkspoiled said..
I assume you have the 85cm mast and you obviously think highly of AFS. Do you think the mast length limits upwind ability or stability through chop? I often wish my 80cm Taaroa mast were just a little longer, especially when I hit big boat wakes and such.

Actually, I have the old 2019 AFS Wind95 foil (T-bar 95 cm mast and 88 cm fuselage). I have only had a 95 cm mast, but glad I do, helps in waves and Gulf swells that are 3' plus, have them regularly. And going hard upwind it definitely helps too, especially in waves, since then you are cutting into the waves. Can feel when the wing is close to the surface, so just before coming out, that happens regularly on a big wind day with the F1080 wing, not so much with F770, and not at all with S670 so far.

Also looks like they redid the wing/stab. mounts, since the topside of fuselage is covered with carbon twill with no black mastic plugs to access the screw inserts from the topside.

And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

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Sandman1221 said..
And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

I don't think so. Your guess is wrong.

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Sandman1221 said..
And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

It seems carbon fuselage is not an improvement over the aluminum? Or they are not reliable? I wonder why almost no brand makes carbon fuselages. Plus, for course racing and very light wind, the 115 should be better.

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WillyWind said..

Sandman1221 said..
And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

It seems carbon fuselage is not an improvement over the aluminum? Or they are not reliable? I wonder why almost no brand makes carbon fuselages. Plus, for course racing and very light wind, the 115 should be better.

Carbon fuselages are great IMO, not everyone are racers, probably most are not. Why so few brands making carbon fuselage?, because it is difficult and expensive compared to aluminum, but so much stronger IMO when done right and that takes skill and experience, and carbon does not corrode.

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Sandman1221 said..

WillyWind said..

Sandman1221 said..
And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

It seems carbon fuselage is not an improvement over the aluminum? Or they are not reliable? I wonder why almost no brand makes carbon fuselages. Plus, for course racing and very light wind, the 115 should be better.

Carbon fuselages are great IMO, not everyone are racers, probably most are not. Why so few brands making carbon fuselage?, because it is difficult and expensive compared to aluminum, but so much stronger IMO when done right and that takes skill and experience, and carbon does not corrode.

Wrong again. That is not why they don't make them. Long fueslage don't offer the stability. Starboard, F4, Phantom already experimented and concluded that carbon doesn't work well. Lokefoil has now switched to aluminum too. Not because of cost.

To my knowledge of current production, the only carbon fuselage out there is the Axis with a titanium rod inside, and is maxxes out at 80 cm. There are probably some others.

LP made carbon fuselages at windfoil lengths. I seem to recall they are about 90 cm long for windfoil geometry. When I asked Peter L about making longer fuses, he said the carbon would not stand up to the stresses unless he made them a lot thicker and heavier.

My old AFS-2 has a monocoque mast/fuse one-piece, all carbon. The fuselage section is really thick and beefy, about 90 cm long.

So, since Starboard and Moses/SAB and others are offering pretty much only aluminum fuselages, there has to be a reason.

Lots of carbon fuses out there. Just more variables to work out to control the twist. Should theoretically be better than ally. Here is a 115 plus plus fuse:)

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DarrylG said..
Lots of carbon fuses out there. Just more variables to work out to control the twist. Should theoretically be better than ally. Here is a 115 plus plus fuse:)

Did you get it out of the recycling bin?

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snides8 said..

DarrylG said..
Lots of carbon fuses out there. Just more variables to work out to control the twist. Should theoretically be better than ally. Here is a 115 plus plus fuse:)

Did you get it out of the recycling bin?

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segler said..
To my knowledge of current production, the only carbon fuselage out there is the Axis with a titanium rod inside, and is maxxes out at 80 cm. There are probably some others.

LP made carbon fuselages at windfoil lengths. I seem to recall they are about 90 cm long for windfoil geometry. When I asked Peter L about making longer fuses, he said the carbon would not stand up to the stresses unless he made them a lot thicker and heavier.

My old AFS-2 has a monocoque mast/fuse one-piece, all carbon. The fuselage section is really thick and beefy, about 90 cm long.

So, since Starboard and Moses/SAB and others are offering pretty much only aluminum fuselages, there has to be a reason.

So being a retired Boeing engineer, why did Boeing and Airbus go to using carbon instead of aluminum on their planes, is the airplane fuselage subjected to strong forces?

Here are my guesses as to why:
1) aluminum corrodes and fatigues over time
2) carbon fiber is stronger and lighter

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ZeroVix said..

Sandman1221 said..

WillyWind said..

Sandman1221 said..
And while the 95 cm mast separates from the 94.5 cm fuselage, the 100 cm mast with 105 cm fuselage is a one piece T-bar, so fuselage it not removable. Guessing there was too much flex with the longer fuselage when screwed on.

As far as I have seen, AFS has the longest carbon fuselage on the market at 105 cm.

It seems carbon fuselage is not an improvement over the aluminum? Or they are not reliable? I wonder why almost no brand makes carbon fuselages. Plus, for course racing and very light wind, the 115 should be better.

Carbon fuselages are great IMO, not everyone are racers, probably most are not. Why so few brands making carbon fuselage?, because it is difficult and expensive compared to aluminum, but so much stronger IMO when done right and that takes skill and experience, and carbon does not corrode.

Wrong again. That is not why they don't make them. Long fueslage don't offer the stability. Starboard, F4, Phantom already experimented and concluded that carbon doesn't work well. Lokefoil has now switched to aluminum too. Not because of cost.

Lokefoil still uses carbon on the shorter fuselages. DarrylG has a 115 cm carbon Starboard fuselage. Long carbon fuselages are technically more difficult to make and a lot more expensive, versus cheap aluminum. Yeah, they can make airplane wings and fuselages out of carbon, but not foil fuselages, guess which experiences more stress, a foil fuselage going 35-40 knots max in relatively laminar water, or an airplane wing and fuselage going 280-520 knots in air with turbulent up and down drafts?

A few brands have started/restarted to make carbon fuselage...
Select www.select-hydrofoils.com/en/windfoil-technology/
Z-Fins/Z-Foils zfins.eu/windfoil/windfoil-pwa-slalom/

From Select
"For our fuselages, we offer 2 different technologies: full prepreg carbon or Aluminum Aero: alloy specific to aeronautics, this material is solid, lightweight and ultra-rigid.
This technological development allows us to maintain the level of performance of our foils whilst reducing production costs to offer more attractive retail prices."

There may be others too.

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berowne said..
A few brands have started/restarted to make carbon fuselage...
Select www.select-hydrofoils.com/en/windfoil-technology/
Z-Fins/Z-Foils zfins.eu/windfoil/windfoil-pwa-slalom/

From Select
"For our fuselages, we offer 2 different technologies: full prepreg carbon or Aluminum Aero: alloy specific to aeronautics, this material is solid, lightweight and ultra-rigid.
This technological development allows us to maintain the level of performance of our foils whilst reducing production costs to offer more attractive retail prices."

There may be others too.

Yeah, Zfoils has 100 cm slalom and 115 cm race carbon fuselages."The more stiffness the more stability. The more stability the more you are able to push. The biggest step forward is a light, stiff, and corrosion-free CARBON FUSELAGE for all our 2022 windfoils. For you, this means better acceleration, better control at higher speeds, and corrosion-free beach life. Carbon fuselage is about 50% lighter than aluminum"

Nice to see people stepping in with examples of carbon fuses. The benefit of fora like this.

Yes, Sand, those are the reasons Boeing went to carbon for airplanes. The 707, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 are still aluminum airplanes. The 787 is all carbon. 30 years from now nobody will be making aluminum airplanes.

Not a question of making it, rather the results. This might change in the future. Even Loftsails makes a full carbon setup (race & slalom). Let's see the test results for a full carbon long (110 and longer) fuse vs. F4 & Phantom. Remi (Starboard) and Chris (F4) did test making them and couldn't produce the desired results. I would speculate that Phantom did too. I am curious about the upcoming long carbon fuse.

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segler said..
To my knowledge of current production, the only carbon fuselage out there is the Axis with a titanium rod inside, and is maxxes out at 80 cm. There are probably some others.

Do you know what the issue was requiring titanium rods? Is it a shear deflection/stress issue or something else? Bending/torsion is all helped with wall thickness and outer diameter but shear loads on a short fuse made need more area that the carbon doesn't provide?

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ZeroVix said..
Not a question of making it, rather the results. This might change in the future. Even Loftsails makes a full carbon setup (race & slalom). Let's see the test results for a full carbon long (110 and longer) fuse vs. F4 & Phantom. Rimi (Starboard) and Chris (F4) did test making them and couldn't produce the desired results. I would speculate that Phantom did too. I am curious about the upcoming long carbon fuse.

The AFS and Zfoils are advertised for PWA, it is not a question of making it, but making it right, and that takes experience and expensive materials. As for Rimi and Chris, question is what materials did they use to make them?, the higher modulus carbon costs a lot more, and that is what a fuselage probably needs at the right place in the right amount, but I am no expert on that.

You can make a sail mast out of aluminum and a boom too, so why are carbon sail masts and booms so desirable?, because they perform better! 100% carbon sail masts are very expensive compared to low carbon sail masts, or aluminum sail masts. Same goes for aluminum foil masts versus carbon foil masts. Aluminum fuselages are cheap and perform good enough, making a carbon fuselage that performs better probably costs 5X with the knowhow, just guessing though.

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Sandman1221 said..

ZeroVix said..
Not a question of making it, rather the results. This might change in the future. Even Loftsails makes a full carbon setup (race & slalom). Let's see the test results for a full carbon long (110 and longer) fuse vs. F4 & Phantom. Rimi (Starboard) and Chris (F4) did test making them and couldn't produce the desired results. I would speculate that Phantom did too. I am curious about the upcoming long carbon fuse.

The AFS and Zfoils are advertised for PWA, it is not a question of making it, but making it right, and that takes experience and expensive materials. As for Rimi and Chris, question is what materials did they use to make them?, the higher modulus carbon costs a lot more, and that is what a fuselage probably needs at the right place in the right amount, but I am no expert on that.

You do realize that Remi & Chris are one of the most respected designers in making race gear? F4 makes the highest rated HMC mast on the market. I am sure they know about production. F4 has been making carbon race fins for who knows how long (formula windsurfing racing era... guys were paying up to USD 1,000 for some of his fins). The only competitive carbon foil that succeeded in the PWA was Lokefoil. I know that Tatty Frans now uses the ZFoil performance gear. Used to be sponsored by F4. I think you need to focus on who really makes race gear and not who produces a carbon fuse. AFS is a free ride / free race foil - not racing. Different animal. We will see how the PWA certification will hold up in the real world.

The 20th edition of Defiwind is next week (26 to 29 of May). I hope Ben P will do commentary & expo wanders like last year. Given everyone will be there it should give a good reflection on where the gear is at.
Lokefoil in '22 haven't yet introduced a carbon fuse. They've got 316L for speed foiling & aluminium for everything else.

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ZeroVix said..

Sandman1221 said..

ZeroVix said..
Not a question of making it, rather the results. This might change in the future. Even Loftsails makes a full carbon setup (race & slalom). Let's see the test results for a full carbon long (110 and longer) fuse vs. F4 & Phantom. Rimi (Starboard) and Chris (F4) did test making them and couldn't produce the desired results. I would speculate that Phantom did too. I am curious about the upcoming long carbon fuse.

The AFS and Zfoils are advertised for PWA, it is not a question of making it, but making it right, and that takes experience and expensive materials. As for Rimi and Chris, question is what materials did they use to make them?, the higher modulus carbon costs a lot more, and that is what a fuselage probably needs at the right place in the right amount, but I am no expert on that.

You do realize that Remi & Chris are one of the most respected designers in making race gear? F4 makes the highest rated HMC mast on the market. I am sure they know about production. F4 has been making carbon race fins for who knows how long (formula windsurfing racing era... guys were paying up to USD 1,000 for some of his fins). The only competitive carbon foil that succeeded in the PWA was Lokefoil. I know that Tatty Frans now uses the ZFoil performance gear. Used to be sponsored by F4. I think you need to focus on who really makes race gear and not who produces a carbon fuse. AFS is a free ride / free race foil - not racing. Different animal. We will see how the PWA certification will hold up in the real world.

And Remi and Chris have to make cost benefit decisions all the time, personally, I think most companies use an aluminum fuselage because of the cost first and performance second.

We could of had the same discussion but about aluminum masts versus carbon masts 5-7 years ago when all the big brand names had mostly aluminum masts! Didn't SB also have a big blue front wing that was solid aluminum too?

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regal1 said..
The 20th edition of Defiwind is next week (26 to 29 of May). I hope Ben P will do commentary & expo wanders like last year. Given everyone will be there it should give a good reflection on where the gear is at.
Lokefoil in '22 haven't yet introduced a carbon fuse. They've got 316L for speed foiling & aluminium for everything else.

Yeah, I saw that, their old carbon fuselage was actually short, because they had extensions on the wing and stabilizer to increase the overall length, guessing it cost too much and maybe did not perform well with two joints, one between wing and mast, second between stab. and mast, and then a joint between mast and fuselage. I like the fuselage design by AFS and Zfoil.

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Sandman1221 said..

ZeroVix said..

Sandman1221 said..

ZeroVix said..
Not a question of making it, rather the results. This might change in the future. Even Loftsails makes a full carbon setup (race & slalom). Let's see the test results for a full carbon long (110 and longer) fuse vs. F4 & Phantom. Rimi (Starboard) and Chris (F4) did test making them and couldn't produce the desired results. I would speculate that Phantom did too. I am curious about the upcoming long carbon fuse.

The AFS and Zfoils are advertised for PWA, it is not a question of making it, but making it right, and that takes experience and expensive materials. As for Rimi and Chris, question is what materials did they use to make them?, the higher modulus carbon costs a lot more, and that is what a fuselage probably needs at the right place in the right amount, but I am no expert on that.

You do realize that Remi & Chris are one of the most respected designers in making race gear? F4 makes the highest rated HMC mast on the market. I am sure they know about production. F4 has been making carbon race fins for who knows how long (formula windsurfing racing era... guys were paying up to USD 1,000 for some of his fins). The only competitive carbon foil that succeeded in the PWA was Lokefoil. I know that Tatty Frans now uses the ZFoil performance gear. Used to be sponsored by F4. I think you need to focus on who really makes race gear and not who produces a carbon fuse. AFS is a free ride / free race foil - not racing. Different animal. We will see how the PWA certification will hold up in the real world.

And Remi and Chris have to make cost benefit decisions all the time, personally, I think most companies use an aluminum fuselage because of the cost first and performance second.

We could of had the same discussion but about aluminum masts versus carbon masts 5-7 years ago when all the big brand names had mostly aluminum masts! Didn't SB also have a big blue front wing that was solid aluminum too?

That is why Lokefoil sells a USD 1200 stainless steel fuse that is 4.8 kg (10.56 lbs.).

The 100 SPEED fuselage has been optimized for speed.His material (stainless steel) heavier and more rigid makes the fuselage ultra stable at high speed compared to aluminum or carbon. It is equipped with an adjusting system for the front wing incidence and stabilizer wings in order to take full advantage of the potential of your foil.

Lot of cost benefit decisions going on there. Have you even tested a 110 cm or larger fuse in your life?

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Sandman1221 said..
Yeah, Zfoils has 100 cm slalom and 115 cm race carbon fuselages."The more stiffness the more stability. The more stability the more you are able to push. The biggest step forward is a light, stiff, and corrosion-free CARBON FUSELAGE for all our 2022 windfoils. For you, this means better acceleration, better control at higher speeds, and corrosion-free beach life. Carbon fuselage is about 50% lighter than aluminum"

When Tatty smokes Nico in PWA on the Z-foil I might take a bit more notice but right now in the real world as an average joe on an Ali fuse I will just suck it up, from past experience I never believe 100% sales quotes on a website, lets hope a well used Z-Foil lasts a lot longer than a Z fin