Last night, I was trying to help a friend who's looking to upgrade his foil to something a bit more modern for freeride/freerace . His options available in the US are... limited. Basically current inventory predates all the trade mess and there's very little of it. I know that the focus for a lot of buyers has been on the wingfoil side but there's depressingly not much out there.

With several notable manufacturers (Starboard, Slingshot) that accounted for a lot of the market moving to new standards or withdrawing from the market, this has made things very challenging.

I started to use wing foils on my freeride widfoil board probably 4 -5 years ago, learned almost by accident that 70-80 cm fuselages are just fine for it.
Even better if you tracks on your board

No arguments here. The ability to demo is terrible too. Where is he and what is he looking for? Small chance some locals can help.

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BullroarerTook said..
No arguments here. The ability to demo is terrible too. Where is he and what is he looking for? Small chance some locals can help.

He's local to me. Plenty of foils he can try amongst the local group from full on race to freeride. Yeah, demo is basically "trust me, bro" Fortunately the online shops we frequent are good - I'm not knocking them at all, they are in a very, very tough position. But, it's still hard to describe to someone what they might want to ride especially as his skills progress.

miamiwindsurfe, we're a light wind spot so the longer fuses of windfoil gear help a lot. It's hard to put an 8.0 on a wingfoil fuse. I have one foil set that's pretty short fused and ... well, it's an acquired taste that I haven't fully acquired. Even if we went wingfoil gear, I think this issue would eventually raise its head once pre-April inventory gets cleared out.

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Paducah said..

BullroarerTook said..
No arguments here. The ability to demo is terrible too. Where is he and what is he looking for? Small chance some locals can help.

He's local to me. Plenty of foils he can try amongst the local group from full on race to freeride. Yeah, demo is basically "trust me, bro" Fortunately the online shops we frequent are good - I'm not knocking them at all, they are in a very, very tough position. But, it's still hard to describe to someone what they might want to ride especially as his skills progress.

miamiwindsurfe, we're a light wind spot so the longer fuses of windfoil gear help a lot. It's hard to put an 8.0 on a wingfoil fuse. I have one foil set that's pretty short fused and ... well, it's an acquired taste that I haven't fully acquired. Even if we went wingfoil gear, I think this issue would eventually raise its head once pre-April inventory gets cleared out.

I think it's a misunderstanding, my current set, 710cm2, 910 cm2 front wings, 70-75cm fuselages, 2 sails 3.1 and 4.4 m2 covers 7-30 kn. With long fuselages and 8.0 m2 you might take off in 5.5 kn, and front wing could be smaller. But I decided to not to chase 5-6 kn of wind anymore, on small gear too physical and unstable.

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miamiwindsurfe said..

Paducah said..

BullroarerTook said..
No arguments here. The ability to demo is terrible too. Where is he and what is he looking for? Small chance some locals can help.

He's local to me. Plenty of foils he can try amongst the local group from full on race to freeride. Yeah, demo is basically "trust me, bro" Fortunately the online shops we frequent are good - I'm not knocking them at all, they are in a very, very tough position. But, it's still hard to describe to someone what they might want to ride especially as his skills progress.

miamiwindsurfe, we're a light wind spot so the longer fuses of windfoil gear help a lot. It's hard to put an 8.0 on a wingfoil fuse. I have one foil set that's pretty short fused and ... well, it's an acquired taste that I haven't fully acquired. Even if we went wingfoil gear, I think this issue would eventually raise its head once pre-April inventory gets cleared out.

I think it's a misunderstanding, my current set, 710cm2, 910 cm2 front wings, 70-75cm fuselages, 2 sails 3.1 and 4.4 m2 covers 7-30 kn. With long fuselages and 8.0 m2 you might take off in 5.5 kn, and front wing could be smaller. But I decided to not to chase 5-6 kn of wind anymore, on small gear too physical and unstable.

How heavy are you?
4.4 is tiny for a light wind sail

I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

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azymuth said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

Paducah said..

BullroarerTook said..
No arguments here. The ability to demo is terrible too. Where is he and what is he looking for? Small chance some locals can help.

He's local to me. Plenty of foils he can try amongst the local group from full on race to freeride. Yeah, demo is basically "trust me, bro" Fortunately the online shops we frequent are good - I'm not knocking them at all, they are in a very, very tough position. But, it's still hard to describe to someone what they might want to ride especially as his skills progress.

miamiwindsurfe, we're a light wind spot so the longer fuses of windfoil gear help a lot. It's hard to put an 8.0 on a wingfoil fuse. I have one foil set that's pretty short fused and ... well, it's an acquired taste that I haven't fully acquired. Even if we went wingfoil gear, I think this issue would eventually raise its head once pre-April inventory gets cleared out.

I think it's a misunderstanding, my current set, 710cm2, 910 cm2 front wings, 70-75cm fuselages, 2 sails 3.1 and 4.4 m2 covers 7-30 kn. With long fuselages and 8.0 m2 you might take off in 5.5 kn, and front wing could be smaller. But I decided to not to chase 5-6 kn of wind anymore, on small gear too physical and unstable.

How heavy are you?
4.4 is tiny for a light wind sail

I'm light 135 lb, but friend of mine with less pumping skill at 200 lb ,uses bigger front wing 1200 cm2, max sail size 6.5 m2. But we all use standard fuselages design mainly for wingers.

The tariffs aren't helping of course but imo it's always been bad.

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Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

Funny enough, my first good foil was (hand) built here and F4 were, too, back in the day but that was when foiling was a cottage industry. Much like Patrik said in his interview about his foils: he could build them in Switzerland but you couldn't afford them.

Anything posted from a major source is subject to tariffs, no matter how small the amount. Goods from and/or posted from elsewhere can be valued up to $800 US before being subject. I mistakenly went above that about six months ago by about $40 and ended up paying a 25% tariff on the whole shipment. Ouch. Used goods are subject (afaik) to tariffs just like new.

The problem with Slingshot is with the new system, it's not as easy as just making a windfoil fuse. The fuse length is baked into the wings and tails. But, yes, they did * us over.

I can foil just fine in 7 kts. Short fuses while the work for some, don't have the feel I want. There's a reason almost all performance fuses are 100+. I'm not dragging on anyone who uses short fuses - it's a preference thing. I"ve tried them and it wasn't my cup of tea. Point is: there is gear in the world that aligns with what I'm looking for. However, very little of it is available in the US without having to do absurd things or pay absurd prices.

Just saw proposed 30% tariffs on EU this morning. More yay...

Funny, for me anything >80cm fuselage, feels too directional, resistance to turn. Over the years I took all the aspects of wing foil I liked and incorporated it in my rig, resulting in board dimensions 177*80, no footstraps, no harness, using wing foils and small sails. Ya, tariffs will be tricky going forward...

What's wrong with Moses/SAB?
The slingshot phantasm front wings fit on the Moses fuselage.

So the thread has gone kind of sideways as usual as people want to debate that their discoveries are more valid than the anybody else's.
As you all know my my gear selection and riding style is my own.

I know for a fact there's a lot of inventory in the US regarding Moses.

As I just picked up another kraken fuselage cheap.
Sailworks has some good deals as it appears there getting out of the retail game.

Mac kiteboarding has tons of Moses parts.

And of course the US distributor down in Long Beach. Has inventory also.

alwayskiting.com

I've had nothing but success with Moses and is made in Italy and not Asia.

And this is not a new phenomenon even when I was windsurfing. I always made it a point to have redundancy and whenever I saw any products that I use I would buy them up if they were on sale.

That way I would not miss any days on the water waiting for new parts if I had a breakdown.


the most common question people ask me when we're at the launch is why I don't wing.

If it's not at least 16 knots preferably 18 I'm either riding my bike or surfing.
I'm blessed as I probably live in one of the most windiest spots in the continental US.

Gwarn

?si=KOVU0IZCEQuWBhG9

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Gwarn said..
What's wrong with Moses/SAB?
The slingshot phantasm front wings fit on the Moses fuselage.

So the thread has gone kind of sideways as usual as people want to debate that their discoveries are more valid than the anybody else's.
As you all know my my gear selection and riding style is my own.

I know for a fact there's a lot of inventory in the US regarding Moses.

As I just picked up another kraken fuselage cheap.
Sailworks has some good deals as it appears there getting out of the retail game.

Mac kiteboarding has tons of Moses parts.

And of course the US distributor down in Long Beach. Has inventory also.

alwayskiting.com

I've had nothing but success with Moses and is made in Italy and not Asia.

And this is not a new phenomenon even when I was windsurfing. I always made it a point to have redundancy and whenever I saw any products that I use I would buy them up if they were on sale.

That way I would not miss any days on the water waiting for new parts if I had a breakdown.


the most common question people ask me when we're at the launch is why I don't wing.

If it's not at least 16 knots preferably 18 I'm either riding my bike or surfing.
I'm blessed as I probably live in one of the most windiest spots in the continental US.

Gwarn

My point was, if you expend your horizons, and use wing foils, you have a lot more options

If he's looking for new gear, I really like the Axis BSC and HPS foils. I have the BSC 1120 and 1060, and the HPS 1050 (HPS980 soon). I ride strapless in flat to 4-6' waves in Lake Michigan. I am by no means awesome, but I have a ton of fun. Axis has the windsurf fuses in the Red and Black series. MACkite boardsports carries Axis. That's where I get my stuff from. I'm one of three that windfoil here. One guy is on the old Slingshot Infinity foils and the other is on a newer Simmer Blackbird set up.

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excav8ter said..
One guy is on the old Slingshot Infinity foils and the other is on a newer Simmer Blackbird set up.

That's cool - which Simmer foils does he ride?

I also live in the US and like freerace gear. Short fuses won't cut it for me (I use a 115cm fuse. I have a 105 and 95 collecting dust) Coupled with HA front wings, I need big sails. I have been to Miami area few times and I wish I had their "light wind" in my spot. Where I sail, lake Washington, people are using 8-9m sails in light wind. Wingers are using 8 m wings to get going. Yes, there are a few lighter wingers who can get away with a 6m wings and crazy pumping skills but I'm not one of them.
using an iQfoil and a 1000 front wing (with a 8.5m freerace sail). That is 6-7 years old technology; maybe more. For windfoiling standards, that is pretty old.
if your friend likes free racing, he is pretty much stuck with Patrik or F4. I believe F4 is paying attention more to winging. NBwindsurfing in FL has Patrik in stock and they are not charging tariffs as of two weeks ago (or at least their prices are the same as in the Patrik website). Starboard has new wings and fuselage (they sell a fuse that allows you to use the old mast) but I have yet to find someone who actually bought and used one. your other option is buy directly from Europe. Regardless of the brand, ALL of them are the fastest, lightest, best light wind foils ever. US Shops also sell only very few windfoiling brands so even if truthful, they cannot compare many products. Yes it's super frustrating. But I still enjoy windfoiling way more than winging :)

I think the iQfoil is a good freeride foil these days , especially with both the 800 and 900 front wings

It's worth a look at phantom iris x pro It's top level PWA freerace kit for windfoiling ,made with high quality carbon and available on line in Europe and seen a full quiver for sale on eBay. (Looks similar to Patrick but not identical) I see the advert on sail repair shop website in Scotland

Personally loving the F4 gear and crew. Sponsoring racing on west coast especially for WingFoil. Great gear! Say hi to Memo for me.

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azymuth said..

excav8ter said..
One guy is on the old Slingshot Infinity foils and the other is on a newer Simmer Blackbird set up.

That's cool - which Simmer foils does he ride?

Pretty sure he's on the SL98. He seems to really like it. But all he does is flat water blasting for speed.

Sorry for the delay in replying to all the responses. Out of town for a bit.

I'd recommended the SABfoil originally. I don't think my friend is quite ready for an IQ 900/800 (assuming we could find a used set at a fair price) as his skill level/weight will limit his progress in our often very light winds. If the 1000 wing was readily available, I would be of a different opinion.

Phantom Spark, F4 and Patrik are wonderful, imho, for someone who has both the skills and budget; and require a bit of care ie not the sort of things with their slender wings to plonk down on a rocky beach. The skills aren't there yet in this case.

As far as a repurposed wing foil, at that point, it would just make sense for him to continue working on wingfoiling when what he's more interested in is something more akin to traditional windsurfing. Not throwing shade on those who are making it work for them.

I'll take a look at Axis. Appreciate the heads up on that.

For context, the foils I've spent most time on in the past few years are the IQ compatible series, Phantom Iris X/Spark and NP Glide Wind (HA and Swift). Despite its age, the IQ stuff is still a lot of fun to sail. For someone lighter or already nailing jibes, I'd not hesitate to recommend it. The SABfoil has been popular locally and the 940/50 wings were game changers for a few friends, especially who came from bigger and slower wings. The Phantasm... well, RIP. The PTM926 was life changing for a friend who came from the Infinity series.

Appreciate all the thoughts and input.

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Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

no

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berowne said..
Personally loving the F4 gear and crew. Sponsoring racing on west coast especially for WingFoil. Great gear! Say hi to Memo for me.

but no longer made in US so subject to tariff too

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miamiwindsurfe said..

I think it's a misunderstanding, my current set, 710cm2, 910 cm2 front wings, 70-75cm fuselages, 2 sails 3.1 and 4.4 m2 covers 7-30 kn. With long fuselages and 8.0 m2 you might take off in 5.5 kn, and front wing could be smaller. But I decided to not to chase 5-6 kn of wind anymore, on small gear too physical and unstable.

also keen to see 4.4 in 7kn :)

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bel29 said..

Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

no

This was a bit short but I see that Paducah more comprehensively addressed the fluid situation in the US, but the basic point is that anything being imported whether new or used, and whether imported for subsequent sale or for own use, is in principle subject to tariff, with the tariff rate depending on the country of origin (a 'term of art' which does not necessarily mean the country where the product was imported from but -- in general terms -- the country where the product was made or substantially transformed). within that broad framework there remains a ton of uncertainty, primarily around the actual rate which can range from 10 to over 50pct of the value of the product.

Select to expand quote

bel29 said..

bel29 said..

Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

no

This was a bit short but I see that Paducah more comprehensively addressed the fluid situation in the US, but the basic point is that anything being imported whether new or used, and whether imported for subsequent sale or for own use, is in principle subject to tariff, with the tariff rate depending on the country of origin (a 'term of art' which does not necessarily mean the country where the product was imported from but -- in general terms -- the country where the product was made or substantially transformed). within that broad framework there remains a ton of uncertainty, primarily around the actual rate which can range from 10 to over 50pct of the value of the product.

Taking Mark's point, which foiling equipment companies are domiciled in the USA. Where do these companies design, manufacture and distribute their product from?

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John340 said..

bel29 said..

bel29 said..

Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

no

This was a bit short but I see that Paducah more comprehensively addressed the fluid situation in the US, but the basic point is that anything being imported whether new or used, and whether imported for subsequent sale or for own use, is in principle subject to tariff, with the tariff rate depending on the country of origin (a 'term of art' which does not necessarily mean the country where the product was imported from but -- in general terms -- the country where the product was made or substantially transformed). within that broad framework there remains a ton of uncertainty, primarily around the actual rate which can range from 10 to over 50pct of the value of the product.

Taking Mark's point, which foiling equipment companies are domiciled in the USA. Where do these companies design, manufacture and distribute their product from?

I don't know, but from a tariff point of view only the place of manufacture matters in this list. I'm not aware of any of the high-performance foils (those that interest me) currently being produced in the US. Ditto with most of the rest of the gear for that matter...

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John340 said..

bel29 said..

bel29 said..

Mark _australia said..
I dunno what I am talking about but
Mr T's tariffs are to stop import of new stuff so you build it there right.?
My first thoughts - tell Slingshot they farked over the windsurfers and to get back into windfoil. Grrr.

Then more sensibly though - you can avoid tariff by purchasing overseas and having it posted to you .. Not going through a wholesaler or retailer in USA right? Even more so if it's secondhand.
Now if a foil and mast was assembled and attached to a board in a store like as a demo it's secondhand. it's a sale of secondhand sh1t not brand new so no tariffs ... right.?

no

This was a bit short but I see that Paducah more comprehensively addressed the fluid situation in the US, but the basic point is that anything being imported whether new or used, and whether imported for subsequent sale or for own use, is in principle subject to tariff, with the tariff rate depending on the country of origin (a 'term of art' which does not necessarily mean the country where the product was imported from but -- in general terms -- the country where the product was made or substantially transformed). within that broad framework there remains a ton of uncertainty, primarily around the actual rate which can range from 10 to over 50pct of the value of the product.

Taking Mark's point, which foiling equipment companies are domiciled in the USA. Where do these companies design, manufacture and distribute their product from?

They seem to move around. My SS114 was made in China. My new SS90L was made in Taiwan.

FYI: this winter I upgraded from an old SS Hoverglide to a set of 2nd hand Sabfoil Kaken full carbon. Bought it from a kitefoiler with a 70cm fuse but knowing I wanted more stability I ordered a new 93cm fuse from Sab. it is the original Balz Pro set which has recently been replaced by a new gen of wings, but I had read a lot of good things about the Balz Pro 799, 899 and 999 wings so I got those and they are right on the money for performance freeride IMO. Not too different from the SS HG only stiffer lighter faster. And sabfoil wings fit SS fuse.

I guess. a slingshot rear wing will not fit a moses fuselage ?

That's right. Slingshot rear wings do not quite fit the Moses/Sabfoil fuselages. You can elongate one of the holes to make it fit. The front wings do indeed fit as-is. I have Moses 900mm fuselages with a mix of Moses/Sab and Phantasm front wings, but only Moses/Sab rear wings.