Hey guys!

After seeing some graphs recently on volume ratios, I'm intrigued to know how many others prefer stay at the upper end of the ratio?Based on my weight of 72kg, and relatively advanced skill level it suggested I should be on about 100l.
My current boards are 118 and 122l (8'1 and 9'0) in length.

I've gone down to around 95l and a 107l version of my 8'1 but they just seem slower, more unstable, don't catch the smaller stuff as easily and also then don't catch the bigger stuff as easily due to slower paddle speed.
On the 95l board I found myself hanging out in the same break zone as the long boarders and thought what's the point if they could pick them up in the same place?

I just don't see the appeal of low volume boards. The trade-offs from my experience don't seem to be worth it.

Wondering if anyone else finds the same and prefers to be on the upper end of the scale?

Cheers

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benjl said..

I just don't see the appeal of low volume boards. The trade-offs from my experience don't seem to be worth it.

Cheers

If you don't understand it then don't bother. To have a board surf more like a surfboard is worth it for me. 105kg on 125l ish boards is best for me. When the board has more volume it is harder to balance on as it feels corky, harder to dig the rails in when turning and they bounce about at speed. 125l is still big so it picks up waves easily.

apx your weight + 25% eg:- kg 90kg = 112.5 litre board . Once you get used to low volume boards and then you jump back on a high volume board they are actually more corky and as Hilly said and can be harder to stand on and the rails feel like a side of a boat and surf like one.

I don't think benjl is referring to the surfing part.....it's the actual standing out the back and getting on the wave in the first place.
It depends a lot on your skill level , break , and what you want to do.
For weekend hacks like me ....who try to avoid packed line ups....you need some glide to catch the fatter stuff. That usually comes from a longer and most likely more voluminous board.
A wise old SUPer (you all know him) once said to me that most SUPers rarely change how they surf even as they reduce board size .
l

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benjl said..
my weight of 72kg, and relatively advanced skill level it suggested I should be on about 100l.
My current boards are 118 and 122l (8'1 and 9'0) in length.
I've gone down to around 95l and a 107l version of my 8'1 but they just seem slower, more unstable, don't catch the smaller stuff as easily and also then don't catch the bigger stuff as easily due to slower paddle speed.

It depends on the wave power, actually. And we have quivers for a reason :-)

For very slow and weak waves I had in the Mediterannean sea (1', 4s period) wide boards of 110 to 135 liters for my 100kg were nice, the rail floatation meant that I was able to lean hard on them in turns and get a lot "squirt" out of them, a smaller board would have bogged down in slow waves.

In powerful Hossegor waves (8s period at least), it is a different picture. The lower the volume, the smaller and lighter the board, the safest you will feel in the wave, especially in heavy drops, and flirting with the high line for max speed. The optimal is when you can leave your feet in place while going rail to rail, with the perfect combo of volume, width and rocker, especially in the rear sections, for the conditions.

It also depends on your technical level. A smaller board has less latency, but you must then be quick enough to anticipate your moves. I tried once a 84 liters board in good powerful waves, it was incredibly nimble, but it was a kind of a waste: I didn't know what to do with this added nimbleness. But, I could not stay upright for more than 10-15 seconds before falling :-)
Trying a smaller board is not sufficient: you need some time on it to get used to it enjoy it.

Also, At some point you begin to take off with SUP like with a shortboard: more using the timing and placement than just motoring your way until you catch the wave. If you are still used to motor your way into the wave with parallel feet, low volume SUP will seem very hard for you on take off. Once you look more at the wave and play with your placement, timing, and body weight transfers (which is not possible with parallel feet), you will discover that small boards can take off quite easily. Just look at good shortboarders.

So, for me now, a 105 liters board for my 100kg seems a nice ratio for waves of more than 7 seconds period. I am toying with the idea of getting a 95 liters board (but not too narrow) to test my limits, I am not sure it will be worth the trouble in the long run for my technical level and age (57), but we will see. Anyways, 0.95 to 1.05 seems kind of the ratio people settle on for good waves for shortboard-like SUPing. But bigger boards can also be quite fun for some conditions (paddling to outer reefs), and have a place in the quiver.

Also, when you get close to an 1.0 ratio, everything counts: widths, shape details, ... you can then add back some volume to get back some paddling speed without much drawbacks, using the shape rather than only the "brute force" of volume reduction. See for instance the video below on how Erik Antonson could add more volume to his designs after going low enough in volume to experience what feeling he was after. Personally, I think a narrow rear section and good tail rocker is paramount for powerful waves, but I need to keep the volume low because too much volume becomes then hard to balance on with the cork effect. But narrow + low volume can be too tiring too fast. So I must change boards in smaller and smaller increments to find the good compromise.

Im your weight and my main surf short SUP is a 76 x 26 @ 85 litres....Took me a while to get used to it (maybe a dozen sessions) and my longer sup is 10.1 111 litres....i have a 92 litre 710 with feels huge after the 76 but i can surf it a little bit more comfortable in messy conditions. Youll be surprised how small you can go and how much the performance goes off the scale once you do so. Just be prepped for some hard session getting your balance and working out stance and dont give up!!

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colas said..

benjl said..
my weight of 72kg, and relatively advanced skill level it suggested I should be on about 100l.
My current boards are 118 and 122l (8'1 and 9'0) in length.
I've gone down to around 95l and a 107l version of my 8'1 but they just seem slower, more unstable, don't catch the smaller stuff as easily and also then don't catch the bigger stuff as easily due to slower paddle speed.

So, for me now, a 105 liters board for my 100kg seems a nice ratio for waves of more than 7 seconds period. I am toying with the idea of getting a 95 liters board (but not too narrow) to test my limits, I am not sure it will be worth the trouble in the long run for my technical level and age (57), but we will see. Anyways, 0.95 to 1.05 seems kind of the ratio people settle on for good waves for shortboard-like SUPing. But bigger boards can also be quite fun for some conditions (paddling to outer reefs), and have a place in the quiver.

I'm now at a happy place at 99 liters with quite parallel rails (I'm 74Kg). I'd like to test smaller boards but the conditions on the Med do not allow for it because of the short periods and often choppy waters.

Colas, next time I drive to Hendaye/Hossegor I give you my 99 liters board to test.

At 96 kgs .
i'm happy with 120 litres and 125 litre boards ...tried smaller ,but I'm too over the hill.

but yes at 72 kgs you definailty could go smaller ,you might surprise yourself .

nice conditions of course .

In term of glide and volume ratio, how does a lower volume longer thinner board perform ?
For example the Sunova Style and Fanatic Stylemaster. Both are narrow boards with refined rails and lower volumes .
Would these be a good compromise if you want to retain the glide which is a key advantage for SUPs ?
That is their volumes are still higher due to the length , but as they are refined on the rail and tail they will surf well ?

Regardless of litres the more the board looks like a shortboard it will be harder to stand on .The more it looks a cigar or a door it will be easier. So you have to get a happy medium Vs shape and volume. You wanna surf traditional short board shape you will need a longer thinner board. Want to go ultra short and you have some junk in your trunk , you need straight rails and square nose and tail. That might get you feeling like you are surfing like Kelly but not look like it dish-panning. If you are riding wide flat rollers doesn't matter what you are on but as soon as you and try pull into the pocket the board shape is what it's all about and higher volume fat rails will just get you sucked over the lip and recycled IMHO..

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Gboots said..
In term of glide and volume ratio, how does a lower volume longer thinner board perform ?

It is super fun, but still better for good waves (hip high+).
My longSUP is now a 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters for my 100kg. And I had a blast with a friend 10' x 26" x 100 liters single fin.
You get the glide from the length, but you can get aggressive near the pocket because of the low volume and width.
However, it is not really fun in weak, slow knee-high waves, it will sink too much when you walk on it.

As Piros said, length bring a lot of stability. My 7'4" x 28" x 115 liters is much harder to balance on than my 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters. I would add that you can have very efficient rails at speed on boards with some volume, with various shaping tricks like domed decks (Gong) or Stepped rails (see the new Portal video), but low volume feels definitely safer when things get hollow, especially on takeoff.

at 110kg, I've been riding 126L, 129L and 140L boards.

the 140L is a longboard shape - easily the easiest to catch waves on,
the 129L board is a shortboard shape, easy to catch waves on, needs more push in the water to get going because of the rocker.
the 126L board is a super short fish shape - reasonably easy to catch waves providing they had some push. In mush, no glide for me.

It's funny though,
- my 129L board is 9'0 x 30.75 and whilst side to side it is easy, front to back there isn't much margin for error...
- my 140L longboard is 10'4 x 28 and side to side it takes some work, obviously front to rear it's easy...

If I had only one SUP, for me at my current weight - about 135-140L would be about the sweet spot for most everyday waves, which is right on for Piros' calculation. Longboard shape, but a little wider than the current one I ride.

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colas said..

Gboots said..
In term of glide and volume ratio, how does a lower volume longer thinner board perform ?

It is super fun, but still better for good waves (hip high+).
My longSUP is now a 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters for my 100kg. And I had a blast with a friend 10' x 26" x 100 liters single fin.
You get the glide from the length, but you can get aggressive near the pocket because of the low volume and width.
However, it is not really fun in weak, slow knee-high waves, it will sink too much when you walk on it.

As Piros said, length bring a lot of stability. My 7'4" x 28" x 115 liters is much harder to balance on than my 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters. I would add that you can have very efficient rails at speed on boards with some volume, with various shaping tricks like domed decks (Gong) or Stepped rails (see the new Portal video), but low volume feels definitely safer when things get hollow, especially on takeoff.

"but low volume feels definitely safer when things get hollow, especially on take off"

Colas do you mean safer in terms of not "sliding" on top of water and losing control or because of the rail being caught ?

im around 65kg and ride a 120ish Speeed (square nose , thin rails, 8'8).
At that litre Age is probably too big for me and I note that when it gets hollow or if just get in wave I can sometimes lose control of the board in faster more hollow conditions (even at 2 to 3 ft size). But the board has good glide for me and the refined rails mean it's hard going when conditions not clean

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Gboots said..

colas said..

Gboots said..
In term of glide and volume ratio, how does a lower volume longer thinner board perform ?

It is super fun, but still better for good waves (hip high+).
My longSUP is now a 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters for my 100kg. And I had a blast with a friend 10' x 26" x 100 liters single fin.
You get the glide from the length, but you can get aggressive near the pocket because of the low volume and width.
However, it is not really fun in weak, slow knee-high waves, it will sink too much when you walk on it.

As Piros said, length bring a lot of stability. My 7'4" x 28" x 115 liters is much harder to balance on than my 9'4" x 27" x 118 liters. I would add that you can have very efficient rails at speed on boards with some volume, with various shaping tricks like domed decks (Gong) or Stepped rails (see the new Portal video), but low volume feels definitely safer when things get hollow, especially on takeoff.

"but low volume feels definitely safer when things get hollow, especially on take off"

Colas do you mean safer in terms of not "sliding" on top of water and losing control or because of the rail being caught ?

im around 65kg and ride a 120ish Speeed (square nose , thin rails, 8'8).
At that litre Age is probably too big for me and I note that when it gets hollow or if just get in wave I can sometimes lose control of the board in faster more hollow conditions (even at 2 to 3 ft size). But the board has good glide for me and the refined rails mean it's hard going when conditions not clean

Way too big! I can easily paddle that board at 105kg.

Problem is that if I go any shorter or narrower (eg a Speed 8'5 or 8'2) .....well I may as well just go swimming.
I guess the only option if I wanted to keep same length and width is to reduce thickness which means going custom

7.11 speed 4 sale ! Perfect 4 u

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Gboots said..
Colas do you mean safer in terms of not "sliding" on top of water and losing control or because of the rail being caught ?

Not really. In my experience a properly shaped rail can hold surprisingly well in the water despite its volume, so there is not a lot of holding difference between two close sizes of boards.

What I mean is with a high volume board you get more catapulted by the wave jacking up, brutally launched, and it is hard to keep control because the wave toys with you, tossing you around at high accelerations. With a slightly lower volume board, I have the feeling that the force of the wave is somewhat dampened, the slightly lower rail volume allows it to penetrate deeper in the water to absorb somewhat the push of the wave. You also feel less "locked" on an aircraft carrier catapult rail, and are able to actually pilot the board.

Of course, more volume will make you slide easier in turns, but I think you need more volume difference to experience it. Whereas just a small difference in volume can be felt a lot while trying to maintain control in a heavy drop or section, even if you do not actually slide.

Gboots 120 liters is huge for 65kg. "it's hard going when conditions not clean" may very well be because you have too much volume and the chop is tossing you around like a cork. It would mean a 185 liters board for my 100kg... even as a beginner in small waves, 155 liters were too big for me... I cannot begin to imagine riding a 185 liters board.

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Gboots said..
Problem is that if I go any shorter or narrower (eg a Speed 8'5 or 8'2) .....well I may as well just go swimming.
I guess the only option if I wanted to keep same length and width is to reduce thickness which means going custom

In fact I think going custom with a good shaper is the best you can do

I always liked STC's view on Rider weight vs Volume.. He just seemed to have got the SUP Surfing side sorted.. I've looked quickly for one of his explanations but can't put my finger on one of the threads on here.. worth a look though.

I'm 80kgs wet, 82kgs in winter wettie. My smallest board at the mo' is a Flow 8'7 at 120ltrs.. my breaks are soft loamy and a bit of a rip current, so I like a bit of float.. then when I go to some more punchy waves it still performs very well.
I'd love to go lower in volume, I reckon I could easily get down to 95-100ltrs and in the summer (UK) I will try out something smaller.. I've surfed around on a Shroom 7'9 at 104ltrs in some small punchy stuff and it was quite tippy but I didn't spend a lot of time on it.. I reckon with a whole day surfing it I think I'd be fine on it..

I think you have to consider more than just volume though.. Plan Shape, Breaks, Current, Wind and Your Mood at the time.. One day isn't like any other and whilst you maybe ripping teeny boards one day the next you might trip over your leash a million times.. Life's like that.

But I would always advocate trying smaller boards out if you can.. You never know just how low you can go..

I've just moved down to 104 litres at 85kg and finally found out for myself the truth in the added stability of being lower in the water. At 8'4 and 28.5" wide I thought I'd be in a lot but even with full winter gear found it pretty straight forward. Slightly more width in the nose and wide point a little forward definitely felt key. Picking up waves is business as usual but the surfability is worth every little wobble!

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SunnyBouy said..
I always liked STC's view on Rider weight vs Volume.. He just seemed to have got the SUP Surfing side sorted.. I've looked quickly for one of his explanations but can't put my finger on one of the threads on here.. worth a look though.

I'm 80kgs wet, 82kgs in winter wettie. My smallest board at the mo' is a Flow 8'7 at 120ltrs.. my breaks are soft loamy and a bit of a rip current, so I like a bit of float.. then when I go to some more punchy waves it still performs very well.
I'd love to go lower in volume, I reckon I could easily get down to 95-100ltrs and in the summer (UK) I will try out something smaller.. I've surfed around on a Shroom 7'9 at 104ltrs in some small punchy stuff and it was quite tippy but I didn't spend a lot of time on it.. I reckon with a whole day surfing it I think I'd be fine on it..

I think you have to consider more than just volume though.. Plan Shape, Breaks, Current, Wind and Your Mood at the time.. One day isn't like any other and whilst you maybe ripping teeny boards one day the next you might trip over your leash a million times.. Life's like that.

But I would always advocate trying smaller boards out if you can.. You never know just how low you can go..

Sunnybuoy I previously cut and pasted and saved the post you are talking about :
"The Creek has good stability by volume.
If you have a volume where you are comfortable, look at the Creek that is close to that volume.
If you are not sure what volume to consider, it is fairly reliable to use standard weight to volume ratios.
Your weight in kg times "factor"
(See example at the end)
Pro factor is 1 to 1.1
Advanced is 1.2 to 1.4
Intermediate 1.5 to 1.6
Beginner = 1.7 and up

i am "advance" and weigh 107 kg
107 x 1.2 = 128 liters
To
107 x 1.4 = 149.8 liters

My winter Creek is the 148 liter 9'4to
My summer Creek is trickier
At 107 I fall right between the 8'10 & 9'1
8'10 = 125 liters
9'1 = 136 liters
I just went south to warmer water, so I need a smaller board. .

I just ordered the 9'1 because the 8'10 would be too much work for me and the 9'1 should be a a good move down from my 9'4

I hope this long answer give people a good way to choose a Creek.
Volume is the more important yardstick than length. "

Credits to Sir Creek

Hi there I just want to add my 2 cents, I have tried and owned many many boards in the last 3 years and have an all round favourite an old starboard carbon Airborn 7'4" x 28.5" x 3.4" = 85L=5.9kg and it appears to suit my 63 - 65kg (with wetsuit etc.) body perfectly, I find it the most stable, surfable, and fun sup in all conditions and sizes etc. (I mainly surf fast, hollow reef, point waves with a lot of movement, chop and wind) and I have tried more volume, more length, more width etc. etc. but the Airborn / the 85L mark appears perfect for me (as the board is thin, wide and has great tail and nose rocker & great rails) so I think the board itself - its outline rocker construction etc. play an important part of the volume equation and there needs to be a great deal of experimentation to find what is best for you:-)

This is a bit of a how longs a piece of string topic, but basically it goes like this;

Every time you gain something on a board you have to give something up, fore instance - More radical = Less stable.

I am 95-96kg. My favourite boards to ride when the surf is pumping are 95ltrs. And yes it's a mission, but the performance is off the planet. I even ride 95ltrs on my foilboard when the it's good. Yes I sink,and yes it's a slog to paddle out (yes I always paddle out standing).

Now, for the other 90% percent of the time when the waves are between the good to average, I ride around the 108 - 120ltrs.

I have been riding standup for a very long time and have reasonably good balance. But I totally understand the weigh offs with boards, it's the same with windsurfing. So what I suggest is find your "WALL" - where you physically just can not comfortably ride at all without falling in every 10 seconds, and go up from there until you can manage to paddle out and generally stay up right majority of the time to find your "ON" board. There is no equations to tell you this (despite what some will tell you) and all boards feel different (a 95ltr board in one style/make may be more stable then a 105ltr in another). Try to suit the style of board to the waves you like to ride. Then you need to find your "REALITY" board, this is the one that will be somewhat larger than your "ON" board, but you are happy with the way t performs, it's radical enough to get you good turns, stably enough to handle 10-15kn of wind, and has a good enough paddle speed for exploring distant breaks and long paddle outs.

This IMHO is the perfect basic quiver. You'll ride your "REALITY" board likely 90% of the time, and justify your "ON" when the surf is on. You'll get good at picking "ON" days, because if you take your "ON" board out on a "REALITY" day, you'l come in frustrated. When when you pick right, you'll be all smiles likely 99% of the time (sometimes the surf just sux that day).

Good luck with it, and base your sizes and decisions on real life experience and educated expectations not forum equations (for sure use them to help guide you though).

Enjoy the ride,

JB

Yes I totally agree with JB, (and JB do you ride mainly Naish boards? I have a 1916/17 7.8 x 27 3/4 = 96L Naish Hokua Le = 6kg ex team rider board that is fantastic but it just feels a bit too long compared to the 7.4 Airborn so then I always go back to the 7.4), the 7.4 fits inside the pocket of the waves a bit better, and also some fins really work well and others are a bit ordinary with all boards:-)

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JB said..
This is a bit of a how longs a piece of string topic, but basically it goes like this;

Thanks for taking the time to write this post, it exposes things clearly. Especially on the importance of finding your wall, and then moving back to something a bit bigger.
I guess the problem of a lot of people face is having the opportunity to try boards in various sizes and volumes, with enough time on them to get past the initial impression. My first minutes on a board may be hell, and look like I hit my WALL, but I can be comfy after 2-3 hours on it. And at the opposite, I had boards that I was confortable with nearly immediately, only to realise it was too hard for me after one session with water movements.

A good solution could be to rent boards to try, but there are no SUP rentals everywhere, especially with low volume boards... I must say I have been lucky to have boards that do not lose a lot on resale, so I could try a lot of boards by just buying and reselling them.

I ran away from home this winter.... good call.... they are looking at their 4th Blizzard in the last 4 weeks!

Walk-about has been good for me.... down from 111 kg departure weight, to 99 kg and dropping.

My boards, and W to V factor at 99 kg:

9'4 Creek 148 liters = 1.5 ...........too big for me now

9'1 Creek 136 liters = 1.37 .... feels great, even in chop, 8'10 Creek at 125 L would be ok on clean days ( 1.26 )

9'4 Acid 136 liters = 1.37 .... comfortable, thought the 9'1 Creek is noticably easier

9'1 Acid 125 liters = 1.23 ...... testy but ok

8'10 Flow 130 liters = 1.31 ...... super easy, more stable than 9'1 Creek

So, at 70 years old (in 3 weeks) my comfort zone, on performance shapes is 1.3 to 1.4

My goto now, is the 9'1 Creek at 1.37

In clean waves, I can do 1.23, but my hips and knees take too much abuse.

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colas said..

JB said..
This is a bit of a how longs a piece of string topic, but basically it goes like this;

Thanks for taking the time to write this post, it exposes things clearly. Especially on the importance of finding your wall, and then moving back to something a bit bigger.
I guess the problem of a lot of people face is having the opportunity to try boards in various sizes and volumes, with enough time on them to get past the initial impression. My first minutes on a board may be hell, and look like I hit my WALL, but I can be comfy after 2-3 hours on it. And at the opposite, I had boards that I was confortable with nearly immediately, only to realise it was too hard for me after one session with water movements.

A good solution could be to rent boards to try, but there are no SUP rentals everywhere, especially with low volume boards... I must say I have been lucky to have boards that do not lose a lot on resale, so I could try a lot of boards by just buying and reselling them.

This is why it is so important to support your local shop. Make friends, and bring them business and they will look after you. Sometimes being looked after may not just be about getting the best price, but having selection, advice and the ability to demo.

And Johndsu, yes I ride and work for Naish in AUS.

Ride safe,

JB

I'd agree with JB. I think the ratios are a good guide but then a bunch of other factors come into it. I'm at the intermediate level, have average natural balance, weigh 90 kg and only get in the water a couple of times a week for an hour each session. I've got two 145 L boards (1.6) and even though they are very different shapes, they are both REALITY boards and I have a blast on them.

I'd only get an ON board if I had the time to put into it, which I don't right now. I also think it depends on the individual. Some guys are always looking to push themselves on performance boards in pumping surf, good luck to them as the challenge is what they are looking for. I prefer to find an uncrowded break (even if lower quality) and ride a board that's fun and allows high wave count. Horses for courses.

well said Mark .
..I have had plenty boards and done some dough too. ouch ...went right down 110 litres ,but just back up again ,two factors
i can last longer in the surf due to not getting as tired ,2, I surf with prone Surfers and can snake better with a 120-125 litre boards and have the extra paddle speed ,130 ,they don't get any waves ...nah not that much of a greedy dude .they are all mates who i grew up with ,they call me old now i sup.i guess i am .
I don't feel having just one board is possible ...as you will miss out on too many fun days ,nothing like getting to the beach and it is
perfect off shore about 4 foot and easy to get out ,you defiantly want to take your smallest board out ,those are the days i remember through the year ,thats why we push ourselves to go smaller ...as you surely can rip on smaller boards .
not so good a days, a challenge to get out ,you will need a bigger board .
But great subject ,i think the answer is found in yourself .
creeks got a good scale ..if your a young fit bloke you surely can push the numbers down ..
I say go as small as you can if you can do it ...i wish SUPing was around and as big as it is now ,with the top quality
boards you can buy now 30 years ago when i was in my 20 's .pain was irrelevant.

I am probably of the same mindset as you Mark particularly with preference for lower crowds at the expense of quality waves. The stress of a line up defeats the whole purpose of why I go out . Is about escaping from other crap. Salt water and waves are good for that .

Another query re volume weight ratios. Does this apply equally to long boarding SUPs ?
Eg a Style, Nalu , Stylemaster ?
i would assume it's a totally different equation as the lower width and longer length reduce any corky effect particularly if rails are refined