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cantSUPenough said..
Great STC - thanks very much for such a detailed reply! It is extremely helpful to see it done correctly and incorrectly. (Did you make that turn in the third shot? Impressive!)

I am going to mount my camera on the nose again so I can see what I am actually doing. I am reasonably happy with the results of my turns on the smaller waves, but I don't really know if I am pivoting on the tail or driving with the rail. On the bigger waves, I am either not committing, or my technique is catching up with me (or the fins are stopping me). The video does not lie!

CSE...
The nose cam is a very useful tool for improving your surfing.

and I missed this question last visit.
"Did you make that turn in the third shot?"

Yes... that pic was a screen grab from a short vid I did on a "roundhouse cutback"
I'll post it because it shows the mechanics of a turn in slo-mo
note the way the legs are coiled at the start of the cutback, then released evenly throughout the turn to maintain edge control.

This has to be one of the best threads in ages...real helpful technical info not just subjective views. thanks guys, its going to help my surfing

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peguin said..
This has to be one of the best threads in ages...real helpful technical info not just subjective views. thanks guys, its going to help my surfing

It sure it helping me!

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supthecreek said..

cantSUPenough said..
Great STC - thanks very much for such a detailed reply! It is extremely helpful to see it done correctly and incorrectly. (Did you make that turn in the third shot? Impressive!)

I am going to mount my camera on the nose again so I can see what I am actually doing. I am reasonably happy with the results of my turns on the smaller waves, but I don't really know if I am pivoting on the tail or driving with the rail. On the bigger waves, I am either not committing, or my technique is catching up with me (or the fins are stopping me). The video does not lie!

CSE...
The nose cam is a very useful tool for improving your surfing.

and I missed this question last visit.
"Did you make that turn in the third shot?"

Yes... that pic was a screen grab from a short vid I did on a "roundhouse cutback"
I'll post it because it shows the mechanics of a turn in slo-mo
note the way the legs are coiled at the start of the cutback, then released evenly throughout the turn to maintain edge control.

Thanks - nice work! Now I just need to get out there and put it into action!

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peguin said..
This has to be one of the best threads in ages...real helpful technical info not just subjective views. thanks guys, its going to help my surfing

AGREE! yes this is what forums are about. great posts by all.
enough of this flatwater and foil nonsense. (preparing for the onslaught)
wish we had a SUP surf section...

Another thing to mention is the stiffness of the fins ..carbon ,fibreglass ,or plastic .
The real stiff glass fins will give more drive ,good for heavy dudes .
I still quite like the original naish fins which are softer ..it doesn't seem to buck you off as much when your flying down a big one and hit some chop ..size does matter so does stiffness ...geez ...FINS ..
i think every board is different and will like a different combo .my x32 Hokua is a live wire with quads and will go anywhere ,put a thruster set up and it very much a straight line approach but is good for down the line surfing .too bigger fin like 8. And 4 rears it leaves the water and almost impossible to turn .unless. Your riding the tail and stall it in the pocket .get some fins and swop about .

This is just some of the collection of back seat spares ..
Nice vid Rick .when I grow up I want to be like you .

i need to get some more fins .
Ive got some full carbon ones coming in a quad set .

fins galore Tardy!
only got one single 9" dolphin fin to play with my wanna try to surf the 14ft board
hanging out for a longboard surf one day and play with the fin setups.

Crazy thing is I have more ...

i love surfing my 14 ' when it's small ,it s a real art ,one lean to one side to much and your off.

getting back to fins I can put bigger fins in my 9.1 and make it feel like a 10'.

Once I've set my boards up with the right fins ,I usually don't change them much .

I just change boards now .Its a pleasure have 3 surf sups ...thing is you usually have to check
conditions before leaving home ,so you don't end up taking the wrong stick

Forehand Bottom Turn



Backhand Bottom Turn



I believe there are two main types of Bottom Turns; Aggressive and Shallow. Obviously the type of wave you are surfing will dictate what type of turn you will require for that particular section etc.

For me the keys are that you have to really commit to the turn, compress and drive the rail. See pic below from my recent trip to Indo.

Note: Bending at the knees and waist (compression), weight on back leg, front foot light and in middle of board, rear foot / toes right on the inside rail, reaching trailing hand out and down towards the wave (touch the wave face), paddle forwards and used as a brace if required and most importantly; head looking at where I am going to next.

Trip report coming soon.

Another couple of photos showing progression of the bottom turn.

Great post Skeeeee

Nice to see you nailing a solid bottom turn on a kickass wave!

Great Skeeee - great example of how to commit on a wave of consequence. I will burn that into my head. Thanks for the video references too.

I just took a look at some of my photos and vid from my Maldives trip - I can see now what I was doing wrong. I might post some bits later to show the contrast in technique.

Not to belabor the point, but I went through some Maldives vid and photos (two vids below). After this discussion I can see so many things I was doing wrong: the majority of my weight on the back foot (and sometimes almost stalling on the tail), not bending my legs so I can spring off the bottom, not committing to the turn, paddle skimming on the water behind me, cutting across the wave instead of dropping and turning in the flat - see any others?


I had more photos, but these tell the story... (The 8th photos is the closest I came to doing it correctly.)

That's enough to start with. Don't over think it just focus on one thing at a time. Speed and flow are key, aim to come out of a turn with more speed than you went in. Engage the whole rail and drive it back up the wave.

oh yes and dont pull a rude head

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hilly said..
oh yes and dont pull a rude head

That's out of my control

A bit like hilly said, it may be easier to focus on the memories of turns where all went well, and try to re-put oneself in the same setup, rather than struggling to think of all the problems to avoid. Identifying what went wrong is important for debriefing, but you need some simple mental guideline(s) to aim for during the action.

For instance, in your first video, the turn at 0:16 seemed to have the good "flow". It would be nice if you could remember what were your feelings during it.

For me, I try to represent me like I was crouching on both legs to lurch myself forward (sideways relative to the board) onto a low bed in front of me. I guess it kinds of automatically make me weight the front foot, crouch, and do the counter-turn.

Hi Jason, mate I agree with Hilly and Colas and don't worry at all you look as if you are surfing well and obviously having a lot of fun enjoying this activity we all love. Hilly has the best point just focus on one thing at a time and then move on to the next etc. I often write in pencil on my board what it is that I want to focus on during a surf, usually with little diagrams etc, it seems to work for me.

I also have the Sunova Acid 8'7" and it has become one of my favourite go-to boards. If you are ever coming over to the West Coast give me a shout and we can hook up for a paddle.

By the way I do the worst 'rude heads' (see below), again out of my control.

Cheers and keep enjoy your surfing journey mate.

Thanks again for all the input to this thread on bottom turns. I have been focusing on this the last few mornings out in 2-4 ft waves on my 8'10" Skate. What has helped the most is Creeks advice to use the end of the run to turn as hard as possible off the bottom and try to launch the board over the back of the wave. To practice this at the start of the wave just seems like a waste.

Bob

Thanks for everyone's comments. For what it is worth, I am not worried about it, I enjoy figuring out ways to learn how to improve, and with all the expertise on this forum it is a great opportunity. Having the GoPro has helped me check whether what I think is happening is actually happening.

CSE.... you are advancing... and asking is a great way to get tips.

Pics and vids really help.... I took your pics showing good turns, and marked them up to give you a goal.

for a solid bottom turn:
Commit out over the rail.

the lines show you're more upright body position compared to Skeee's fully committed rail turn.
Notice how much more "on edge" his board is and how far his head is past the rail.

Your feet must transfer what your head is doing to the board.... just bending at the waist like the 4th image does not transfer the power to the board. You must "project" out, as you uncoil, driving the power to your board. The board will carve a turn and come back under you as you finish the turn.... like a bike leaning though a turn.... you don't fall over if you do it correctly.

Awesome thread! I'll throw another couple of things into the mix, but as others have said, focus on one or two things in the sesh.

First, front foot position. Need to have at least the ball of the front foot on the stringer. Best to have arch of foot over stringer. Having the front foot totally outside of the stringer will compromise the turn as its hard to sink the inside rail when you're simultaneously weighting the outside!

Secondly, and it might seem a tad left field, but maintaining the wide grip on the paddle helps commit your body to the inside of the turn, provided you are trying to "wipe" the wave face (and wiping forward rather than back if you know what i mean) with the blade. Bit like my old pole surfing days where just before the bottom turn you grabbed the boom another foot back from normal position and sheeted in hard with your back hand.

Great callout from Colas on the small but definite quick fade left before launching into the turn. Bit like rally cars doing the Scandanavian flick, it gets mass slightly unsettled and moving in the right direction ultimately. Theres probably that "Ollie" effect coming into play there also where you get energy from the pump returned to help you on your way.

That's all fantastic! Thanks for the suggestions and markup STC, and comments Mr. T. That really helps. And it really does show that my feet are in the wrong spot (especially the front foot on the wrong side of the board) and the lack of commitment... I need to pull my bum in and get over the rail. That really gives me something to work on. There's some swell coming this weekend too!

Interesting thread CSE. Its made me analyse my technique. Its something I usually don't think about. With regards to foot positioning when I forehand bottom turn my toes are dipping in the water and my heel is on backhand turns. This gets the board right on edge and half your fins out of the water. I have noticed my deck grip on my Acid is actually wearing in these areas. The other thing I do (and probably not text book) is hold my paddle in the air as I go down the face then swing it down to the water which pulls your body weight forward as I bottom turn.






The pictures are I reverse order! This is on my old V-box where I really had to move my back foot around with its wide tail.

Ok... this seems like the right time to insert a little Physics into the mx. (thanks beasho on Standupzone for this one!)

It's even fairly understandable to non-physics guys like me.

It's about skateboards, but very similar to our wave environment, where we create the radius with our turns.
It explains why pumping (coiling and uncoiling our body) works, and why it's necessary to extend out over the rail in order for it to work.

Whoa, you guys really over think this stuff.

Just go out and have a bit of fun, relax, cruise, turn, enjoy.

It's only surfing

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supthecreek said..
Ok... this seems like the right time to insert a little Physics into the mx. (thanks beasho on Standupzone for this one!)

It's even fairly understandable to non-physics guys like me.

It's about skateboards, but very similar to our wave environment, where we create the radius with our turns.
It explains why pumping (coiling and uncoiling our body) works, and why it's necessary to extend out over the rail in order for it to work.

Wow - that's cool! In my other life I run a training company in the area of machinery vibration analysis (and other areas) and in the most advanced course I teach stuff like that. Who knew it was related to surfing!

I wonder if the same explanation can be given to the way guys like Filipe Toledo pump their boards - they pump with a movement of knee bends/extensions and arm thrusts - I guess they have a vertical sine wave rather than horizontal. I have tried that - I just look silly

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shoodbegood said..

Whoa, you guys really over think this stuff.

Just go out and have a bit of fun, relax, cruise, turn, enjoy.

It's only surfing

You may be right, but when shoodbegood turns out to be notatallgood, and when I wanttobegood, then these explanations help.

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Traff said..
Interesting thread CSE. Its made me analyse my technique. Its something I usually don't think about. With regards to foot positioning when I forehand bottom turn my toes are dipping in the water and my heel is on backhand turns. This gets the board right on edge and half your fins out of the water. I have noticed my deck grip on my Acid is actually wearing in these areas. The other thing I do (and probably not text book) is hold my paddle in the air as I go down the face then swing it down to the water which pulls your body weight forward as I bottom turn.






The pictures are I reverse order! This is on my old V-box where I really had to move my back foot around with its wide tail.

Nice shots! It is good to have images like this in my mind. Hopefully I will put it into action today!

Great post !! U can't beat learning new stuff and nothing looks better that some one nailing that effortless flow with style .

My faves are Leco salazar & ryan hemp ..

Check out this vid .. The speed they get coming from the bottom turn is crazy ..



Also i think what these top guy like ryan and that have nailed is they hold the spring part just perfect .. I think thats one of the main things, been able too hold cause that creates the explosion out of the bottom turn /??

That's a great vid! Can learn from that for sure.