hi.Has anybody been on standupzone and checked out the talk about the original simsup.
the boards look fairly odd but the zoners are raving about them.
the closest board ive rode to these are the psh hull paddlers and hull rippers.
has anybody seen or demo one, ta

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/DIY-Simmons-Style-Sup/

Short and fat, great fun in small surf I would imagine. In decent size surf they would be ordinary, but I could be wrong

I don't think they're marketing them as anything but small wave ( up to 6 foot boards). Anything bigger you probably want a gun anyway. The guy at Simsup said that they can do ship to oz for between 300-400 dollars. They retail a custom eg. 8'8" x 33 for around USD 1250.00. Under $2000.00 all up. Google them and send them an email thy reply pretty promptly. The guys on the zone seem to either love them or love them????

Here is the review I wrote on standupzone on my 8' Simmons: (before being banned and my posts deleted)

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Today I tried my 8' Simmons in perfect mediterranean waves: powerful, overhead, glassy, and ... alone. (I didnt see these outer reef waves as big from the shore, otherwise I would have played it safe and taken a more traditional shape) The natural speed of this thing is mindblasting (you can "pump" a traditional shape to the same speed, the Simmons just glides), but it can carve turns surprisingly well, in part I guess because the fins are so far back, you have the time to let the board sink the rail deep before it engages the turn. And with a wide square tail, the rail can bite deep in the water and place the fin deep where it can have a lot of traction. But the turns happen with some inertia, and you must have the commitment to handle so much speed in turns and prepare them. And forget going straight down on take off or after a roller, nosedive guaranteed. This is why I want to try a shorter one, to be able to "forget" a bit the nose.

Mine has a big concave at the aft, thin rear rails, keel fins on the tail:


(more pics at the end of www.gong-galaxy.com/magazine/pics/1-hour-4-boards/ )

I do not think they are limited to small waves. They work surprizingly well in head-high waves, but differently from a standard board: you have the impression to be on high-velocity plane, and bank into turns to like on a motocycle or a plane. This is not the same impression as for a regular thruster, which you kind of "pump" in turns. If you like speed, you will love them. If you like vertical surfing in the pocket, you will not like them if the waves have some power. I guess they dont like chop too much, this will rule them out of typical big wave conditions.

They are great for crappy waves, because the wide planshape is very stable, and you can push on your rear foot for powerful turns even if the wave flattens, you wont sink. Plus they paddle fast for their size due to the parallel rails and fins.v b

I would advise you to find a local shaper, if possible with some mini-simmons experience, if you want to experiment new feelings. And be sure to at least have boxes for the classic Simmons keel-fins-on-the tail setup, even if you add also more boxes further up for a more contoporary setup.

I will be trying shorter ones ( see www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/DIY-Simmons-Style-Sup/#1248293 ), the concept definitely works, even if I also like to surf other kind of shapes

Hey Colas, nice review. In OZ 6ft is double overhead considered not overly big and is relatively common. So what I guess I'm saying is that they are OK up to around double overhead, depending on the fin setup. It also appears that there are many people copying the design. Is yours an original or a knock off?? Because I'm starting to get confused about what is the original shape and what is a copy!!

With all the comments about miniSims just had to add this photo. (Check the hair & you can probably guess the era). It was a Bennett shaped by an American who later went to WA & was involved in quads (- but I can't remember his name. Maybe someone else can). He wanted to make it smaller but I was "an old guy". How did it perform? It was fast!!

Bugger - can't get the image to upload!! (When my granddaughter returns from school I will call upon her expertise!!)

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Leroy13 said..

Hey Colas, nice review. In OZ 6ft is double overhead considered not overly big and is relatively common. So what I guess I'm saying is that they are OK up to around double overhead, depending on the fin setup. It also appears that there are many people copying the design. Is yours an original or a knock off?? Because I'm starting to get confused about what is the original shape and what is a copy!!

On the wave size, well, that's why I didnt dare give it in feet... Where I live we do not get big waves, and when I go to the ocean (Hossegor) I surf beach breaks (I hate crowds... so I seek fickle, changing sandbars rather than established reefs) that saturate before double overhead... in a nutshell, I do not know what big wares are :-)

My board is a "Gong" one, an original shape, copied of course like all the others on the Simmons design via its revival by Joe Bauguess joebsurfshapes.com/mini-simmons/ but unrelated (I saw the prototypes being designed in September 2011) with the current US Simsups. Note that the Simsup design differs quite a lot from a mini-simmons: no tail concave, fins forward... more like a "Wombat" shape actually. I had a board like this, and it is also extremely fun, with feelings closer to a modern egg, but I had a very hard time on it on head-high waves, unlike the Simmons shape, which buries the fins deep in the waters in turns.

Mini Simmons were very popular over in the UK a few years back - they were the next best thing at the time and had a good following. The guys (and gals) who surfed them tended to have pretty good skills to get the best out of the design.

Have to say I liked the look of the design of them as a surfboard - they looked fast and great fun for small waves. Not sure how they stack up as a SUP - not seen too many vids of them about being surfed by your average SUPer. I've seen Colas's video of Patrice riding his - didn't look to me as the most nimble of SUPs and that's in the hands of a big guy who can outsup (if that's a word) most others. The size of the tail and parallel rails looked more like a hinderance in quick turns - although there's no doubt it picks waves up well and glides which at the end of the day might be what it is about?

Probably some similarities there with your traditional fish shapes - thick. short, little rocker, fast as f*ck, but with a big fish tail you get more swizzle on a wave?

Saying all that......I'd love to try one out as they look ideal for the weak, small beach breaks I surf. I had a look at the Gong performance guides and I was surprised that it was not rated as being a very stable board - I would have thought with that design it would be.

Well, in Patrice defence, I just videotaped him on my Simmons board this summer in Corsica and put all the waves on youtube without editing out anything, to convey the feeling of a "real world" session (and I didn't have the skill to made good edits anyways :-)

But it is true that this board does not obey like a modern shortboard. It is not "nimble" as a traditional performance board where you "dominate" the board and "pump" it into turns. You have to let it kind of "get up to speed" during 1/2 to 1 second, and then pilot it, but the speed maintained during all the ride is exhilarating. This is not the same feeling I get with the other fish shape.With the fish, you are on a skateboard, with a Simmons, you have High-G compressing turns, and you make sections you thought impossible. I must say I didn't get the "ah ah" moment on it till early this year, I guess last year I was trying to ride it like a normal board. To enjoy a Simmons, you have to get into the "flow" of it. I never rode a mini-Simmons sufboard, but people who tried them tell me it is the same kind of feeling.

It is stable... for a 8'0", but its low volume rails and low front rocker does not make it the best beginner-friendly board. It is however stabler than the biggest boards in my quiver, the Gong 8'3" Empire and th Gerry Lopez Little Darling 8'10", So I used it for my teaching SUP to my daughter's boyfriend this summer... but let's face it, he would have been much better off with a 10'...
I would not advise it in rough conditions for a non-surfer, as the low front rocker + the wide tail need some surfing knowledge to not nosedive on suddenly peaking waves, but once you get the hang of it, it is quite fun. And beginners will really have fun with these shapes in mellow soft waves.

PS: On the fizzle of wide fishes, I found out 5 fins makes wonder with those...

Yup - they look a lot of fun but at 8ft with next to no nose rocker and flat elsewhere I think you are right in that pearling the nose will be pretty frequent in some waves unless you know how to avoid that. Suppose that's why the mini simmons surfboards are so short.

They look fun to have in the quiver.

Also reckon Gong have done a good thing to their Asyl - you had a shot on the new one yet? I have a NFA and Fanatic Allwave - both surf great but in different ways.

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Slab said..

Also reckon Gong have done a good thing to their Asyl - you had a shot on the new one yet? I have a NFA and Fanatic Allwave - both surf great but in different ways.

Didn't try the Asyl yet, but I advise a lot of intermediates to buy it, a friend should have his end of June, I am eager to try it. Patrice has the "magic rocker" for the slow waves, especially the familly of shapes comprising the Cloud / Empire / Final, but he is a very good SUPer, with a powerful back leg, and his boards often are designed for his tastes... I think that with the new Asyl he tried to make the boards less demanding wrt back leg power, especially for lightweights.

PS: Yes, that's why I ordered a 6'10" Simmons SUP, I really think the short length will be beneficial. However, less than 7' may be a bit extreme, I guess something in the 7'2" - 7'6" range may be more versatile. The 8' is extra coll in ankle snappers like this morning, however...

Colas - better vid of what the 8ft AS Sim SUP can do (the second board in this sequence). Looks like it turns nice!

www.gong-galaxy.com/magazine/movies/grouink/

Sorry guys but what I see you guys posting here and what's on "The Zone" look to be similar in shape but vastly different in development. I'm probably very wrong but it seems that the gong boards are 10 years behind the original simsup. Having surfed for over 45 years I can guarantee that while nose design is important, rail design is crucial and thats where the difference seems to lie. I started on boards that had very little kick in the nose and have seen them almost look like bananas in the early to mid seventies. Fixed fins went out last century. Everything goes full circle, I reckon George Greenough's spoons aren't too far away. We have a surf demigod in Victoria affectionately known as Yoda. His personal designs are based on his boat building expertise and remind me a little of the simsup. he has been seen paddling up the face of an 8 ft Bells monster, flick it around and start riding when all the short boarders and longboarders are paddling for their lives. The point is the surfer makes the difference. Like Wayne Lynch, Dean Snow could have been anything he wanted to be. Sometimes the need for self justification, omniscient comment and commercial gain overtakes the benefit of the sport. I hope that this thread hasn't taken that direction as from what I've seen and read Original Simsups certainly have a place in the quiver if you're that way inclined

ahem, leroy, and your point is... ?
(and yes, I agree with you, I think you are probably very wrong :-)

Slab, yes, you can see how it turns smoothly, gliding at a steady speed during the turns, and how much the rear foot must be on the tail. At the end of the video, you see the board a bit "tracking" when the foot in not far back enough.

Not really understanding what you are saying too Leroy? If you are saying Gong's Simsup is a bit outdated in design - you may well be right...I'm not expert on them. What I would say is that some of the older designs (fixed fins or not) are still some of the best by miles. Taking my surfboards for example....traditional twin fin fish copied from Steve Lis design is brilliant/timeless and I have a pig shaped longboard...superb. Also have a McCoy Nugget....brilliant.

Anyways....where were we? I'd like to try a SimSup but not sure about that tail......and I'd prefer more nose kick...so probably looking at a diff design

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spencer said...
[br]hi.Has anybody been on standupzone and checked out the talk about the original simsup.
the boards look fairly odd but the zoners are raving about them.
the closest board ive rode to these are the psh hull paddlers and hull rippers.
has anybody seen or demo one, ta

Hi Colas, this was the original question. I was just pointing out that it seems somehow forgotten in the banter about what Gong sup has produced. I think I've been very clear that the question has not been answered. Gong sup make some very innovative boards and are probably leaders in their field in France and Spain. My issue is that the question has not been answered Original Simsup is a company in the states by my understanding. Hey Slab I loved my Strapper keel finned fish from 1974, but we are not talking about a surfing history lesson, nor hopefully are we using Seabreeze as a vehicle to constantly promote Gong sups. Colas it seems you do that almost every time you post. Your knowledge and skill are welcome, but lets try and answer the question not promote our own agendas. Please don't use 'Ahem' to start a post in future, it could be considered very patronising. Hopefully I've clarified myself.

Ahhhh - it's the promotion of Gong Sups you're really on about really...will leave that one to Colas as he's obviously got affiliations.

Leroy - in his defence...I don't know the guy but he's given me a lot of good advice in the past re SUPs...and has never bad mouthed other brands to me...even on private messages...unlike others that I've encountered. Personally, I have no connections with Gong - just surf one of their SUPs and rate it very well. Also surf Fanatic and rate them too...and they are heaps tougher but obviously more expensive...go on the Zone and it seems there's dealers talking about them all the time....just saying.

Maybe Colas you should put a signature on your posts to say you are a Gong ambassador so it is clear in case anyone reckons you are posting for commercial reasons....personally I reckon you have a lot of good advice to give and I doubt many over in Aus are really going to buy Gong anyway.

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Slab said..

Ahhhh - it's the promotion of Gong Sups you're really on about really...will leave that one to Colas as he's obviously got affiliations.

Leroy - in his defence...I don't know the guy but he's given me a lot of good advice in the past re SUPs...and has never bad mouthed other brands to me...even on private messages...unlike others that I've encountered. Personally, I have no connections with Gong - just surf one of their SUPs and rate it very well. Also surf Fanatic and rate them too...and they are heaps tougher but obviously more expensive...go on the Zone and it seems there's dealers talking about them all the time....just saying.

Maybe Colas you should put a signature on your posts to say you are a Gong ambassador so it is clear in case anyone reckons you are posting for commercial reasons....personally I reckon you have a lot of good advice to give and I doubt many over in Aus are really going to buy Gong anyway.

Hi Slab, sorry, my apologies to you, I did have my cranky pants on, and yes Colas certainly has given some great advice. All I was saying is that it wasn't an answer to the question but had again been turned into what "Gong" has done. The 'Zone' certainly appears that it may have its cliques (probably site sponsors) and I think that Colas knows a lot about SUPPING. But Spencer's question is about the company "Original Simmons SUPs. not Gong's version nor the history of the simmons style boards. Good to know Colas is a 'Gong ' ambassador. I must have missed his declaration of that fact, I apologise for that, we do have plenty of readers from Europe however that probably would like to know that, probably doesn't make a jot of difference

Spencer email this guy and ask any questions you want answered- Gary Niblock <gniblock@gmail.com> and here is a copy of what he emailed me within 12 hrs of me sending my email.

Hi Leroy, custom SIMSUPs can be shipped internationally from Cali. The cost is in the neighborhood of 350-500 just to give you a rough figure.
We are currently close to introducing our new production line of Original SIMSUPs, and are very excited to have high quality SIMSUPs available in the near future.
Stay tuned to our website for an announcement in the near future.
Thanks for your interest in our boards. They really are too much fun!
Gary Niblock
Spencer, Google their website if you want more information.

Over and out Leroy.

No worries Leroy - good to get cranky pants on now and again

Yup - site sponsors on the Zone pay and get away with more...probably why Colas was booted off.

Incidentally...was having a good look at this Original Simsup boards - like the look of those big time. Anyways.....surf is up over here so SUP in on the roof rack

Hope you get shacked big time! !! Once again apologies Original Simsups is a good website and super friendly people. It's a good lesson on how to make money They'll probably get my business.

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Leroy13 said..

Hope you get shacked big time! !! Once again apologies Original Simsups is a good website and super friendly people. It's a good lesson on how to make money They'll probably get my business.

Not the biggest of waves today but been a while since I got wet so looking forward to it.....watching the vid on Original Simsup's site - looks a very nimble and fast board.....he's hardly putting much pressure on the back and it is going where he wants it. Nice smooth style too.

Well, leroy some explanations... I try to speak only of what I know, and on the boards I have ridden. The thing is... I have ridden mostly Gong boards, so you will find them mentioned by me a lot, since I do not think I have any credibility to speak of boards I didnt ride.
My opinion is that if I said "Simmons boards work this way", this would be dishonest, as I have not ridden enough various Simmons boards to have a relevant opinion. However, I try to give as much context as possible (as in "The Gong Simmons work this way") so that people reading my post can say: "ah but he is actually describing THIS board", and they can look the dimensions and pics to put my opinions in perpective. Just like I dont pretend to surf big waves. I understand now that mentioning a brand upsets you, what would be your advice? that I would just speak generally without any specific model/brand reference?

But I do not think I ever said on this forum (or the zone for this matter) that you should buy a Gong (that are not sold not shipped out of europe anyways), for instance:

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colas said..
I would advise you to find a local shaper, if possible with some mini-simmons experience, if you want to experiment new feelings. A

And I even advised in another thread to get a Sealion (that I owned), made by people that are in very bad terms with the Gong shaper. I have no incentive to sell brands. My ambassador status mandates me to help people enjoy SUPing (on any brand) by sharing my experience, and let people try my boards.

Anyways, thanks for clarifying things. My "ahem" was trying (I am not a native english speaker - this is why I enjoy reading/posting here to practice my english) to convey my puzzlement on what you were meaning.

PS: On the specifics of a Simmons shape, Patrice Guenol? made an interesting post, but I am afraid now to copy or link to it here. Please PM me if you want the link.

Here you go: The question was asked why did his Gong AS Simmons Sup not carry vee or double concaves come with quad set up...instead of big concave between the twin keel fins?

He said:

Hello, Just because it is a real Simmons, not a regular wide board. The concave on the back third of the bottom portion is shaped to Increase the Ability and turn the speed potential. A wide board without this acts like a regular concave shape, Just have more surface. This is not a Simmons in my opinion. Any kind of board takes the water from the front portion of the bottom. The thing is how many to take, how many to keep, and how and when we Have to evacuate it. was regular board, the relationship with the entry, capture and release of the water is smooth and quite constant. was As GONG Simmons, i do not take a lot of water with the nose thanks to the belly, convex. It pushs the water on EACH side of the nose. A flat bottom on the nose takes all the water, and a concave bottom nose takes more water and concentrate. center On the hand, there is a transition betweens and flat belly. It is made ​​to accelerate the water That comes from the nose and Provide a steady schedule. ppart On the bach of the bottom, i shape a Specific Simmons concave. This concave Have different properties. It ACCELERATES the flow of water. It aussi concentrate the water to the tail. It acts like a turbine. It has regular board the water goes out of the bottom mostly by the rails When you turn. As my goal is the water goes out mostly by the tail. So it Increase the speed and forehead Decrease the side accelerations. You go faster and turns are more clean even if the tail is wide. On the other hand this concave Increase the center rocker. More rocker turn equals more ability. Any question? There is many many more to tell about it. Goal Have you never trust people confused a wide tail was regular shape and a real concept Simmons Adapted to a modern board. This is not the same thing. Of course a wide tail with a double concave works well on small waves. It is just not what we can call a Simmons in my opinion. It is always tricky to argue about an inheritance. Everybody Has His view of it. Goal some point of the Simmons work are very clear. My respects As 99% of 'em. Thanks,


Anways - had a good surf today on my Fanatic...bit choppy though so too much falling in!!!

Slab...very interesting concepts ...but please, no disrespect intended, I am having a difficult time following your description. Can you rephrase what's going on over the bottom with the different bottom shapes (convex/concave/double) concave/V) as you see it? Based on the bits and pieces I can grasp it sounds very interested.

Hi Colas, I thought that might be the case with the "Ahem" which is why I mentioned it as an interpretation of how you used it in a sentence.. I certainly respect your input into the forum, but as I keep on saying it wasn't an answer to the question. It might have been better off posted as a seperate topic about Simmons style Sups As I said I had my 'cranky pants' on, you must forgive an old man his bad days ( I hope!). All good now keep on doing what you want!!! Cheers and Mahalo Leroy

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rghdc said..

Slab...very interesting concepts ...but please, no disrespect intended, I am having a difficult time following your description. Can you rephrase what's going on over the bottom with the different bottom shapes (convex/concave/double) concave/V) as you see it? Based on the bits and pieces I can grasp it sounds very interested.

Not my concept - it was a quote taken from the French shaper - Patrice Guenole - who owns Gong Surfboards.......it will have been translated from French into English via computer. Can be difficult reading at times!

Thanks leroy, in anycase I understand now your irritation at my "highjacking" of the post.

Well, continuing a bit off topic, the main point of Patrice is that water escape a normal board a bit diagonally on the side (water try to escape the hull pressure by the shortest path, for water close to the rail the sides are closer than the tail). On this subject, I found the research done by Witchcraft the most striking, see: http://www.windsurfermag.com/magazine/twisted-windsurfing-fin-witchcraft-flow-optimised-multifin-thruster/?params=Mjd8MzY3fDA= They used colored strings to look at water flow on sailboards for instance, and experimented with tweakable fin boxes.


This is why side fins are toed-in: to be actually parallel to the water flow !

The problem is that this angle of water flow is not a fixed value. it depend of course of the board direction (trimming on the face, the board goes somewhat sideways anyways), speed (faster => less angle), water depth (the effect is more important close to the hull) and rear hull shape: V will broaden the angle, concave will reduce it. So a big aft concave is a way to keep the water flow straight, and not spill energy pushing water to the sides.

This is not to say that a concave is "better" (what is "better" in surfing anyways?). It just explains that it gives a different feeling, the "hovercraft speed" seekd by Simmons.

Thanks Colas for the simplification...I am going to refer to the Gong shape as a means of comparison...I live in the US and never heard of Gong before seeing it on the "Zone" in your posts...hope that doesn't upset anyone....just trying to sort out the differences in concept as it applies to making some real progress in the direction of bringing the Sims Concept into the 21st Century.

So if the concave is containing, and directing the water flow thru the tail area, wouldn't Kirk's S4 be a more advance and/or refined approach over the deep single concave on the Gong board? My point being that any board on a wave spends virtually no time riding flat since it has to fit the concave surface of the wave face. Going way out into the flat after a near 90 degree drop (in reference to the wave face) is the only exception I can think of, and even then you have to put it on the rail to turn.. Something I would think very impractical considering the amount of rocker a Sims inspired boards have. If you were pulling it behind a power boat on flat water it would make more sense, but a wave is an ever changing compound curve.

This being the case isn't a double concave a better way to achieve harnessing the energy? It is giving you the same control over water flow, but breaking it into two concave surfaces on a "V" allowing the board to "fit on to/in to the wave face more effectively and allowing the board to transition rail to rail with greater ease. Are any of the top pro surfers using a deep single concave in the tail of their board designs? Does this move us forward to better all around performance? or just give us one positive in straight line efficiency while taking away maneuverability when scaled up to a volume necessary for SUP?

I can see the point about the deep rear concave of the Gong design effectively adding rocker on the center line, but when you put the board over on its rail that rocker disappears and now you have less rocker not more...just the opposite of what you want to decrease the arc of your turn.

Honest questions... interested in where the short wide board design is going and trying to separate the sound science from the marketing with an open mind. In my experience with Surfboards/Windsurfers/Wave-ski design a wide tail has always been a two edged sword...a lot of speed potential but it comes with the price of control issues. I look forward to this discussion.

HI All,

These Simmons inspired shapes really seem to polarize peoples opinions about board design, discussion on the topic is a great thing in my opinion.

For better or worse here is my 2c....

When it comes to the topic of single concave out the back i can't really get my head around it either. But i suppose we been effectively doing this for decades with tail channels. It should be no huge surprise that a single concave works as we are really only talking within the context of high to low pressure at the moment. The Tommo boards thet stu kennedy is riding also have a fairly radical rear channel/accelerated rocker through the centre rear of the board. On the context of simmons, if you get onto swaylocks there are tons of examples of single concave mini simmons.

I think if you try to achieve the same thing with doubles then I think you will end up with a shape more in the region of the starboard hypersonic which was a windsurf board from the early-mid 2000's. That was a good board that used deep double concaves to handle the water pressure fluctuations, but ultimately was superceeded by refined flatter bottom boards as they had less drag. That board was short for a windsurf board but was quite tracky because of the bottom contours. (Wish i never sold my hyper 105.)

According to the articles Simmons was always looking for smooth flow out the back of the boards. When i was younger i went through a stage where i was into pintails and loved seeing that classic water ski tail type wake they produce, (it was one of my main criteria for rating a board). I moved away from this as board fashion changed. After reading articles on simmons designs it has become obvious that this type of wake is a product of the board creating a large low pressure zone around the tail of the board and the water pressure equalising as the board moves away. This low drag approach seems critical to getting a simmons board to lift much of its displacement out of the water and get planing efficiently.

Not sure if everyone is on the same page as per Simmons designs, Competition boards are cool for competition but not everybody wants to achieve high scoring rides with judges. The type of thinking that there is only one correct approach to designing a board seems to have had a negative impact on board design and it really blows me away that there are so many alternative surfcraft around. I am after a fast flowing down the line, type of experience and find this is where the prone mini simmons work for me so i want to scale up to a sup style.

I think the L41 SimSup is a board that apparently works well, but also looks not too ugly to put off people wanting to own one. When I see that gong board it find it really challenges my ideas of what a board should conform to.

At the end of the day all these boards are operating in very variable conditions with riders looking for different things, if it works for the surfer using it then its good end of story.

Cheers Chris