It will interesting to see if the sup market goes the way of windsurfing, or the traditional surfboard industry.

World wide economic forces and pressures are certainly different, but greed is always a great motivator. When the expensive windsurf derived boards stop selling, prices will come down.

There are a lot of independent manufacturers both in the U S, and Australia who continue to produce very high quality products at far more reasonable prices. However, they aren't as bulletproof as the molded products.

I recently purchased my first manufactured board, and it took a hit in the shore break. Surprise, a ding just like my custom boards.

Here in the US, there is a huge market for cheap boards that are neither surf oriented, nor race oriented. Paddle boards for people who are neither hard core surfers, nor racers. Low budget family fun.

Should be interesting to see how it all plays out!

Select to expand quote

cbigsup said..
There are a lot of independent manufacturers both in the U S, and Australia who continue to produce very high quality products at far more reasonable prices. However, they aren't as bulletproof as the molded products.

Light, cheap, strong - choose two?

Naish, Starboard, Fanatic and JP…All at the forefront of SUP..All have marketing budgets and sponsored riders…To grow the sport requires spending dollars…and Kai needs a new toy so you should all stop moaning or he goes without.

Please not the slate noooo. Just got my first crack too took a big hit was surprised it wasnt a lot worse

Split second later bang. Any one know the grey paint code for jp pro?

Matty, Have asked on the paint codes. If I hear will let you know immediately! If you find out please tell me..
Cheers,
Clevo

Will do clevo I've emailed jp too. Found the code for their windsurfer not sure if its the same though its pantone 877c ill pop in and grab a sample in next few days.

Looking at the current market leaders in Stand up paddle. And the history of their businesses and the sports they have been at the helm of.

Safe to say they don't know how to build a sustainable market/business/sport.



Money Talks louder than forum posts, support your local, get a custom

Can I just pose a couple of questions on this topic?

Do you value....

Demo days and the ability to try boards from different brands side by side?
How about your local club and events? There is one just about every weekend at the moment.
The Merimbula Classic for example - have you ever seen the size of the prize pool?
How about this forum?
Who keeps more Aussies in jobs - retailers and their suppliers or local board builders?

I have absolutely nothing against local board builders, they have been instrumental in the development of the sport (and many are my friends) and they also need supporting to survive, but lets keep a global perspective on this. None of the above is free and from what I see, the support for all the above comes mainly from one corner - your local shop and the brands that support them.

Just like our vote, our buying decisions will ultimately dictate the health and longevity of what we love.

I agree with what you said AA but with out a consumer there would be none of the above you mentioned, No clubs, no local shops and no demo days.
No one is blaming the local shops for the price rise just the People making the boards.
I honestly dont think there will be alot of demo boards around cause i honsetly cant see people buying alot of new production boards this year.
I have always been one to support local shops but lately have leaned towards suporting local board builders, simply due to the price.

Select to expand quote

AA said..
Can I just pose a couple of questions on this topic?

Do you value....

Demo days and the ability to try boards from different brands side by side?
How about your local club and events? There is one just about every weekend at the moment.
The Merimbula Classic for example - have you ever seen the size of the prize pool?
How about this forum?
Who keeps more Aussies in jobs - retailers and their suppliers or local board builders?

I have absolutely nothing against local board builders, they have been instrumental in the development of the sport (and many are my friends) and they also need supporting to survive, but lets keep a global perspective on this. None of the above is free and from what I see, the support for all the above comes mainly from one corner - your local shop and the brands that support them.

Just like our vote, our buying decisions will ultimately dictate the health and longevity of what we love.

I agree Andrew..

There will always be a place for the local shapers and custom boards but there's a hell of a lot more people in the whole sup industry that have their hands tied because of changing dollar and hopefully just as the prices go up they will also come back down.. I onced talked to Robby Naish about sup prices and he seemed genuinely concerned and said the whole second Naish factory in China was an effort to make a more affordable board.

I share everyones concern that SUP in general is becoming very expensive - but I find it quite amusing that people think the main brands are pricing themselves out of the market deliberately. They cost what they do because of the product and service they supply. Yes you can make a cheaper local custom with the current exchange rate, but a custom guy can typically only make one or two boards per week and if he had to build a factory and employ people and maintain his quality, add marketing, R&D team and distribution channels to meet higher demand, he would probably - yes you guessed it, move his operation to China and cost the same as the big brands.......

With possibly over 100 brands in existence I'm pretty comfortable that economic laws of competition are at play and that any one wanting to take the piss on prices will be shot down quickly. It costs what it costs to build a board (materials, labour etc) As I see it the only thing that will make prices come down is to skimp on R&D, quality of materials, quality of build and making distribution channels more direct. Each of these have negative consequences which means many are prepared to pay for them to still exist.

It is creating room for the direct to market custom builder and the cheaply built non-R&D imported brands but for a significant segment of the market these do not suffice. What is concerning is that it is putting great pressure on brands/importers to re-look their distribution model and we may end up with less retailers as the first casualty. This means less local events, demos etc as mentioned above and possibly a declining market - not a happy place.

So while a lot are happy to support their local shaper, spare a thought for your local retailer and ask yourself if he is adding value to the value-chain. If the answer is no he will disappear and there will be less high-end boards to choose from, simple.

Peter P, AA and David John....about time there was some sensible commentary from people who really understand what is going on.

Checkout how much R&D went into this article: www.supracer.com/kai-lenny-molokai-2-oahu/

Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

Select to expand quote

husq2100 said...
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

Lol. I couldn't be bothered. Don't forget the "Demo Days". They also cost money. Which the consumer pays for. Demo boards are different again and cost the consumer far less. And marketing budgets and sponsored riders and...


I am going over old ground. Suffice to say, the argument of a board costs what a board costs to produce is fair enough, but to say cost cutting comes to the detriment of the product is a bit of a fallacy. Lots of fat in many companies I am sure. Even just selling someone else's boards adds cost to the consumer. If designing a good board was so magical it was the province of only a select few, then there would only be a few brands.

Of course retailers charging upwards of $4000 a board will say they are already bones of the bum organisations. They are never going to put their hands up and proudly proclaim price gouging.

Husq, it's all your fault. You were too funny and spot on too ignore.

Asian companies will build whatever standard a company orders, BMW get engines from China, but a SUP better smile at me and cook dinner if it's 5-8 times the price of other SUPs that do identical things.

Select to expand quote

husq2100 said..
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

What you fail to realise is that boards are not "pop ups". Each board actually requires nearly as much manual work as custom ones (except the rotomolded ones, but they are the minority).
And it is easy to get a good shaper, glasser, sander, and produce 10 boards per month. But producing 1000 boards per month is quite a challenge: can you find 100 good shapers+glasser+sanders? Mass producing quality boards is very, very hard.

Note also that the price of boards is also due to financing problems. If you must advance the money to build 1000 boards, you will have a hard time convincing banks to lend you the money, something you do not have to worry about when producing 10 boards/month.

Select to expand quote

thedrip said..

husq2100 said...
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

Lol. I couldn't be bothered. Don't forget the "Demo Days". They also cost money. Which the consumer pays for. Demo boards are different again and cost the consumer far less. And marketing budgets and sponsored riders and...


I am going over old ground. Suffice to say, the argument of a board costs what a board costs to produce is fair enough, but to say cost cutting comes to the detriment of the product is a bit of a fallacy. Lots of fat in many companies I am sure. Even just selling someone else's boards adds cost to the consumer. If designing a good board was so magical it was the province of only a select few, then there would only be a few brands.

Of course retailers charging upwards of $4000 a board will say they are already bones of the bum organisations. They are never going to put their hands up and proudly proclaim price gouging.

Husq, it's all your fault. You were too funny and spot on too ignore.

Asian companies will build whatever standard a company orders, BMW get engines from China, but a SUP better smile at me and cook dinner if it's 5-8 times the price of other SUPs that do identical things.

If you read my post again it might make more sense second time round........and I'd be keen to see an example of a board costing 5-8 times less doing the same things (including knowing that it exists, having someone sell it to me, warranty, proven performance etc).......

The illusion of profiteering is just that, market forces will shut down profiteering in a market with so many players. I wish it wasn't so, then it would be easy. The only real way to shave off cost is, as I said, reduce quality of board/service and cutting out the retailer.

We are in dangerous territory because if the average consumer feels this sport is not worth the price-tag then it will die. It will not survive if it is left to a handful of local shapers to fulfil local demand as awareness of sport dwindles there will be no newcomers and it will be over. So the big challenge facing the industry is to convince the market that the price is fair for what you get - not an easy task.

The cycling industry seem to have managed this so there is hope.

Select to expand quote

PeterP said...

thedrip said..

husq2100 said...
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

Lol. I couldn't be bothered. Don't forget the "Demo Days". They also cost money. Which the consumer pays for. Demo boards are different again and cost the consumer far less. And marketing budgets and sponsored riders and...


I am going over old ground. Suffice to say, the argument of a board costs what a board costs to produce is fair enough, but to say cost cutting comes to the detriment of the product is a bit of a fallacy. Lots of fat in many companies I am sure. Even just selling someone else's boards adds cost to the consumer. If designing a good board was so magical it was the province of only a select few, then there would only be a few brands.

Of course retailers charging upwards of $4000 a board will say they are already bones of the bum organisations. They are never going to put their hands up and proudly proclaim price gouging.

Husq, it's all your fault. You were too funny and spot on too ignore.

Asian companies will build whatever standard a company orders, BMW get engines from China, but a SUP better smile at me and cook dinner if it's 5-8 times the price of other SUPs that do identical things.

If you read my post again it might make more sense second time round........and I'd be keen to see an example of a board costing 5-8 times less doing the same things (including knowing that it exists, having someone sell it to me, warranty, proven performance etc).......

The illusion of profiteering is just that, market forces will shut down profiteering in a market with so many players. I wish it wasn't so, then it would be easy. The only real way to shave off cost is, as I said, reduce quality of board/service and cutting out the retailer.

We are in dangerous territory because if the average consumer feels this sport is not worth the price-tag then it will die. It will not survive if it is left to a handful of local shapers to fulfil local demand as awareness of sport dwindles there will be no newcomers and it will be over. So the big challenge facing the industry is to convince the market that the price is fair for what you get - not an easy task.

The cycling industry seem to have managed this so there is hope.

Naish Hokua online from $2200-$2500 depending on model etc.

Waterborn Evoke $550-$900 depending on model etc.

Both catch waves, both have fans. One is a bit cooler than the other but how much is that premium worth?

My maths is a little out there, but it took me two minutes to look that up. Shall we have a look at race and DW boards? And the Hokua is not the most expensive surf SUP on the market. Starboard go even higher.

My last surfboard was $1400 compared to off the shelf numbers from the same shaper coming in around $800-$900. I have no problem paying a premium for a premium product but seeing what people around do on sub-$1800 boards makes me wonder how things approaching $3000 grand or more can be justified. Except for marketing and promotions budgets. Which don't benefit the consumer, but rather the retailer.

Just found a Starboard Pro for $2900. That's almost 6 times the price of the base model Evoke from my example above. Took me a minute to find that after the last post.

Select to expand quote

thedrip said..

PeterP said...

thedrip said..

husq2100 said...
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

Lol. I couldn't be bothered. Don't forget the "Demo Days". They also cost money. Which the consumer pays for. Demo boards are different again and cost the consumer far less. And marketing budgets and sponsored riders and...


I am going over old ground. Suffice to say, the argument of a board costs what a board costs to produce is fair enough, but to say cost cutting comes to the detriment of the product is a bit of a fallacy. Lots of fat in many companies I am sure. Even just selling someone else's boards adds cost to the consumer. If designing a good board was so magical it was the province of only a select few, then there would only be a few brands.

Of course retailers charging upwards of $4000 a board will say they are already bones of the bum organisations. They are never going to put their hands up and proudly proclaim price gouging.

Husq, it's all your fault. You were too funny and spot on too ignore.

Asian companies will build whatever standard a company orders, BMW get engines from China, but a SUP better smile at me and cook dinner if it's 5-8 times the price of other SUPs that do identical things.

If you read my post again it might make more sense second time round........and I'd be keen to see an example of a board costing 5-8 times less doing the same things (including knowing that it exists, having someone sell it to me, warranty, proven performance etc).......

The illusion of profiteering is just that, market forces will shut down profiteering in a market with so many players. I wish it wasn't so, then it would be easy. The only real way to shave off cost is, as I said, reduce quality of board/service and cutting out the retailer.

We are in dangerous territory because if the average consumer feels this sport is not worth the price-tag then it will die. It will not survive if it is left to a handful of local shapers to fulfil local demand as awareness of sport dwindles there will be no newcomers and it will be over. So the big challenge facing the industry is to convince the market that the price is fair for what you get - not an easy task.

The cycling industry seem to have managed this so there is hope.

Naish Hokua online from $2200-$2500 depending on model etc.

Waterborn Evoke $550-$900 depending on model etc.

Both catch waves, both have fans. One is a bit cooler than the other but how much is that premium worth?

My maths is a little out there, but it took me two minutes to look that up. Shall we have a look at race and DW boards? And the Hokua is not the most expensive surf SUP on the market. Starboard go even higher.

My last surfboard was $1400 compared to off the shelf numbers from the same shaper coming in around $800-$900. I have no problem paying a premium for a premium product but seeing what people around do on sub-$1800 boards makes me wonder how things approaching $3000 grand or more can be justified. Except for marketing and promotions budgets. Which don't benefit the consumer, but rather the retailer.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Evoke is sold direct by the Surfboard Warehouse? If so, it means they produce and sell direct without a wholesale margin, this means I can only buy it from them. And that is the point I was making - it is possible to cut costs by amongst other things cutting the supply chain down (cutting out the retailer). Naish Starboard could also be sold 30-40% cheaper if there was no retailer involved (sold straight from importer).....but then they would have fewer people punting, demoing, servicing warranties etc.

There is definitely room for the direct model but I believe the sport would suffer it it all went that way.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a Starboard or Naish board..

If you find them too expensive you have cheaper options..

It's that easy..

Select to expand quote

DavidJohn said..
No one is forcing anyone to buy a Starboard or Naish board..

If you find them too expensive you have cheaper options..

It's that easy..

If you look far enough, you can buy Naish boards for a reasonable price

As I see it we have to distinguish between waveboards and raceboards.
I hope to see a trend in the future where waveboards construction looks more likae traditional surfboards and not like windsurfboards. The cost of producing high tech double sandwchboards is high and i'm not sure we all need that. I see lots of pros going with a much simpler construction and I hope thats the way sup-surf boards will go and in that way keep the cost down.
A minimum weigth for raceoards ( 9kg ??) could prevent the board going super super expensive..

Select to expand quote

colas said..

husq2100 said..
Sorry, i didn't realize they all had to design and build and staff their own individual board production facilities. ...i was under the impression that most boards were mass produced by 1 or 2 specialist companies to each brands own designs...

And silly me thought that mass production brought individual costs down by giving buying power of materials and economizing energies for board production compared to a single build

What you fail to realise is that boards are not "pop ups". Each board actually requires nearly as much manual work as custom ones (except the rotomolded ones, but they are the minority).
And it is easy to get a good shaper, glasser, sander, and produce 10 boards per month. But producing 1000 boards per month is quite a challenge: can you find 100 good shapers+glasser+sanders? Mass producing quality boards is very, very hard.

Note also that the price of boards is also due to financing problems. If you must advance the money to build 1000 boards, you will have a hard time convincing banks to lend you the money, something you do not have to worry about when producing 10 boards/month.

Sorry mate, I dont agree at all. It only takes one good shaper to design the board with feedback from team riders etc. Then they work with the likes of the Cobra Factory and they dont need 100 good shapers to design a board that has already been designed . All they need is to fine tune the CAD file for the CNC router and have skilled finishers glassers etc, WHICH is EXACTLY what Cobra is all about! Yes there are many composites in the new boards and they are always pushing construction etc, but lets be real, this is not the invention of the wheel. Windsurfer tech has been heavily borrowed on for construction process and some of the brands come from that back ground.

Yes it takes money to have team riders, tons of advertising and a big range, but that is what THEY have decided we NEED! capitalism at its best, bigger and more is better.

Funny how a few affiliated with the industry are for it, and for the cycling reference, I personally dont think thats what we want to emulate as a sport, but retailers would be stoked........ then again, middle age over weight guys riding around on over priced equipment with all the accessories is about spot on....all the gear and no idea.

Id be happy if the sport died. Ill always be able to get a quality board made, and way less monkies in the line up.

Hope you are going to use a home made paddle to go with your custom board! Not a light weight/ strong paddle that some windsurfing company spent $$$ on R and D.

I like the Jimmy Lewis way of working.......he has worked with the same guys in Vietnam for about 30 years ensuring he gets consistency of skilled staff to build his boards. No moving around to find the cheapest manufacturer....

Boards are expensive...too expensive IMHO considering what they are.....but we buy them all the same

Select to expand quote

Surfrod66 said..
Hope you are going to use a home made paddle to go with your custom board! Not a light weight/ strong paddle that some windsurfing company spent $$$ on R and D.

Didn't know that Quickblade was a windurfing company.

Good point not all of our gear has come from a Windsurfing company!! Quickblade was around before SUP and also backs the sport with lots of R and D and also sponsors events etc adding to their costs..

You guys think you have problems?! The Kiwi is sitting at $0.66 US. We're having to look at sustainable local production options

Select to expand quote

Hawaiiheke said...
You guys think you have problems?! The Kiwi is sitting at $0.66 US. We're having to look at sustainable local production options

At least that nose rocker will ensure you can make all the late drops.