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AnyBoard said..

Collectively we maybe able to compile a list of those in the top 30 that rode production. It seems the lift guys were on production Florence 110x's which is very impressive. Andrew 3rd and a 16 year old with 1 years foiling in 5th it seems. maybe guido gp760 f4
then James to round out the top 15 on production equipment?

Anyone else have a clue?

Rumor is Gage and Oskar on production Armstrong gear too.EDIT: and Jack Ho's vlog mentions production numbers, but those appear to be just for the video as eye witnesses say Jack was on a larger version of what Edo was riding.

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King Crash said..

churry said..

leepasty said..

AnyBoard said..
I have to agree with jacko in that they should be production foils.

How would some of the other guys in the top 40 or so have performed on an ar 17 foil? For me it sort of takes something away from Edo's performance hearing that. Plenty of super fit and super skilful athletes in the list with the capability to manage that foil also?

I am excited where this information suggests the designs might be going but it should have been in production.

Also I am not suggesting that punters could win on the fone proto but its performance certainly suggests many of the top 20 athletes could have performed much better with access to such equipment and even win.

Umm
I know the Spencers have tried ar17 and even higher foils but they are using ar14 as felt they could push them harder. just like in americas cup or formula 1 the fastest foil /car is not necessarily the fastest on a course if it's too hard to control for the length of the race

Yep, and if we assume jack ho and Simeon were also on this f-one prototype wing...

According to Jack's race recap video he was on a 700x, so not the 600 Momentum.

my info came from Oscar himself fyi.

From the consumer perspective, and meanwhile, foil systems are not interchangeable. In these races brands probe themselves, and demonstrate their investment in RD, and how committed they are to the DW platform.
In my opinion, this must remain because we are forced to commit a lot of money to one brand without warranties of future behavior. We do not need the latest and greatest, but defects (in mounting systems), critical improvements (carbon mast and mast rigidity), better lift in small foils, etc; these are samples where some companies have been lagging. Personally, I want to see the RD budget deployed in these races; that gives me confidence in my future investments.

I think there are two different things getting confused here. People want the protos in the races so they can keep the development going and pushing th boundaries and others wanting as fair racing as possible. Both can be achieved pretty easy and just because the main class would be production definitely would not stop development and maybe push it even hard as brand would want the best foils on the market so their top riders can win races and more of a brands foils in the top ten the better. For me the big winner in the brands on the Hawaii races would be Lift as from the sounds of it their riders were running stock wings which I could go and buy right now if I choose to.
If what I have been hearing then who would know what someone is riding which maybe is the worst part of it all. Riders maybe saying one thing but actually riding something else which if true then will help no one beside the one person riding a wing that no one else may ever see. Still all within the rules so no trying to say anyone is cheating just very not helpful for the general Joe blow or helping develop the sport. Just read the below on the net from someone who was there and should know

"The top twenty were all top level riders. Edo won on a Fone, the Spencer brothers were on Mikes lab, Andrew Gibbons was on Lift as was malae, Kane was on his own prototype, Gage was on Armstrong, Nathan was on his own signature, (possibly the 1st non local rider)Toaura, Perth, Kai Lenny, Tom Constant and Payce were on AXIS, James on Code and Oskar on Armstrong"

Spencers could have been on Duotone but who really knows???? and the confusion really just is another reason for my thoughts on protos.


I would love to see one or 2 standards for mounting systems just so it would be way more affordable for people to buy new wings. Right now I would not buy a system if it did not have some sort of compatibility with other brands. A good start is a mast with the Axis foot then at least you can run the options of Code, lift, Fone, Konrad, ONE, and more.This way at least if one of these brands creates a magic wing you can just buy the wing and not need to buy a new mast which can be a huge expense plus if you have a good mast then you get used to the feel it gives and changing wings will not feel so extreme.

Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Select to expand quote

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

Select to expand quote

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

If you want nothing more than a testimony of physical fortitude and tactics. You'd be pushing for a one design class or box rule. Given this will never happen, and as stated above. Some gear is clearly better than others, plain and simple.

What has been suggested by Paul and others would be great, treat this like yachting handicap, an open unlimited class. Being whatever you want, and race under that division. Then a full production class, would be great to see what people can actually buy and win with.

I'd rather just see some decent footage of the event. still not seen a lot and nothing shows how they were going on the middle of race

Select to expand quote

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

Completely agree with Hank1's comments - pumping up and over requires a massive skill-set and it also happens to require a lot of physical stamina. Go and listen to Edo's 2023 recap from last year - he was by far the fastest in the channel in 2023, having chosen a smaller foil than most, but he made a lot of mistakes and this year he applied everything he'd learned from last year and made very few, if any mistakes, and won. In my view Casey and Oscar didn't learn enough from last years event. If they had listened to Edo's recap they would have understood that if Edo could iron out just a couple of mistakes he would've won last year as well. Edo went out too hard in 2023 and wasted 10-13minutes trying to recover + overdid it again before China Wall and fell a few times and which meant he didn't quite have enough left for the flat spell - and he still ended up only marginally behind Casey and Oscar. Had he managed his race fractionally better in 2023 he would have won by a few minutes.

To try and water down the physical effort of downwind racing is going to be difficult (read impossible) as you will always have the fittest most skilful rider rise to the top no matter what amount of rules you try and introduce. This race proved there is virtually no difference between production and proto's (pre-production) and if you introduce max 6ft boards it will favour the 60kg guys and if you have a min. foil size it will favour the heavier guys. Leave it as it is, if you really want to win a race, buy yourself a compettive foil and do what Edo did.

What I'm getting at is that, yes, the foil matters, but ultimately Edo just prepared better than anyone and knew that if he could build up enough fitness he could win by limiting mistakes and of course being on a fast foil. Edo was best prepared this year, end of story.

I wonder how much more there is to learn about equipment that will filter down ,and be of benefit to the recreational foiler. I'd love to ride a foil that turns and pumps effortlessly and has amazing glide that you can paddle up with ease so I can go back to eating and drinking whatever I like and still be able to DW easy

Select to expand quote

PeterP said..

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

Completely agree with Hank1's comments - pumping up and over requires a massive skill-set and it also happens to require a lot of physical stamina. Go and listen to Edo's 2023 recap from last year - he was by far the fastest in the channel in 2023, having chosen a smaller foil than most, but he made a lot of mistakes and this year he applied everything he'd learned from last year and made very few, if any mistakes, and won. In my view Casey and Oscar didn't learn enough from last years event. If they had listened to Edo's recap they would have understood that if Edo could iron out just a couple of mistakes he would've won last year as well. Edo went out too hard in 2023 and wasted 10-13minutes trying to recover + overdid it again before China Wall and fell a few times and which meant he didn't quite have enough left for the flat spell - and he still ended up only marginally behind Casey and Oscar. Had he managed his race fractionally better in 2023 he would have won by a few minutes.

To try and water down the physical effort of downwind racing is going to be difficult (read impossible) as you will always have the fittest most skilful rider rise to the top no matter what amount of rules you try and introduce. This race proved there is virtually no difference between production and proto's (pre-production) and if you introduce max 6ft boards it will favour the 60kg guys and if you have a min. foil size it will favour the heavier guys. Leave it as it is, if you really want to win a race, buy yourself a compettive foil and do what Edo did.

What I'm getting at is that, yes, the foil matters, but ultimately Edo just prepared better than anyone and knew that if he could build up enough fitness he could win by limiting mistakes and of course being on a fast foil. Edo was best prepared this year, end of story.

I think James admits he didn't train for what Edo and a few others were able to do. The point for me is that axis Armstrong and code foils weren't good enough to allow the riders to imagine that this new style of riding would be possible and most importantly efficient enough to be sustainable over distance.
James says he tried the new style in the m2o and stops short of specifically saying that even over short periods his equipment wasn't supportive but that is how I read between the lines.

It seems only lift were competitive with production foils in this matter.

Now hank1 think about it this way. Last year edo's setup meant he blew out very early with the new style and this year his equipment significantly supported this style of riding with less physicality than would have been required on last years equipment. Also fone has three models of dw foils with a large size range in each and the eagle x has literally just come out and yet Edo rode another proto again that is clearly better at supporting this style of riding and making it sustainable over distance. It still requires great skill no doubt but my argument is that is is no where near as skill focused as going faster on last years foils.

note a 16 year old with one years foiling experiences was able to smoke all bar 4 of the whole field. Obviously very talented but doesn't this alone suggest the skill and experience part is being dumbed down along with the average age of the top results. Could that have been done on last years equipment or even the year before?. I am making plenty of educated assumptions but happy to be corrected if someone knows more.

it not about who wins for me just about where the sport is going.

Select to expand quote

AnyBoard said..

PeterP said..

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

Completely agree with Hank1's comments - pumping up and over requires a massive skill-set and it also happens to require a lot of physical stamina. Go and listen to Edo's 2023 recap from last year - he was by far the fastest in the channel in 2023, having chosen a smaller foil than most, but he made a lot of mistakes and this year he applied everything he'd learned from last year and made very few, if any mistakes, and won. In my view Casey and Oscar didn't learn enough from last years event. If they had listened to Edo's recap they would have understood that if Edo could iron out just a couple of mistakes he would've won last year as well. Edo went out too hard in 2023 and wasted 10-13minutes trying to recover + overdid it again before China Wall and fell a few times and which meant he didn't quite have enough left for the flat spell - and he still ended up only marginally behind Casey and Oscar. Had he managed his race fractionally better in 2023 he would have won by a few minutes.

To try and water down the physical effort of downwind racing is going to be difficult (read impossible) as you will always have the fittest most skilful rider rise to the top no matter what amount of rules you try and introduce. This race proved there is virtually no difference between production and proto's (pre-production) and if you introduce max 6ft boards it will favour the 60kg guys and if you have a min. foil size it will favour the heavier guys. Leave it as it is, if you really want to win a race, buy yourself a compettive foil and do what Edo did.

What I'm getting at is that, yes, the foil matters, but ultimately Edo just prepared better than anyone and knew that if he could build up enough fitness he could win by limiting mistakes and of course being on a fast foil. Edo was best prepared this year, end of story.

I think James admits he didn't train for what Edo and a few others were able to do. The point for me is that axis Armstrong and code foils weren't good enough to allow the riders to imagine that this new style of riding would be possible and most importantly efficient enough to be sustainable over distance.
James says he tried the new style in the m2o and stops short of specifically saying that even over short periods his equipment wasn't supportive but that is how I read between the lines.

It seems only lift were competitive with production foils in this matter.

Now hank1 think about it this way. Last year edo's setup meant he blew out very early with the new style and this year his equipment significantly supported this style of riding with less physicality than would have been required on last years equipment. Also fone has three models of dw foils with a large size range in each and the eagle x has literally just come out and yet Edo rode another proto again that is clearly better at supporting this style of riding and making it sustainable over distance. It still requires great skill no doubt but my argument is that is is no where near as skill focused as going faster on last years foils.

note a 16 year old with one years foiling experiences was able to smoke all bar 4 of the whole field. Obviously very talented but doesn't this alone suggest the skill and experience part is being dumbed down along with the average age of the top results. Could that have been done on last years equipment or even the year before?. I am making plenty of educated assumptions but happy to be corrected if someone knows more.

it not about who wins for me just about where the sport is going.

Anyboard,

I would suggest that are making a lot of assumption's on outcomes without any supporting data and without considering all the factors that contribute to high performance in an endurance event.

Was the actual difference maker Edo's foils this year comparing to last years performance or was it a combination of factors, including being better prepared with his strength and conditioning and nutrition from experience from last years race. Meaning if he prepared the way he did for this years race last year would he have been able to sustain the effort to win the race? Remembering last years course was different. Edo is probably the only one to accurately answer these questions. Data in each of the areas mentioned is a the true indicator.

In regards to the 16 year olds results. I find it somewhat disrespectful to the kids performance to suggest that because he is 16 years old that he doesn't have the same skill as elder more experienced competitors? Do you know this for a fact, have you conducted a comprehensive skills assessment for the field of competitors for this years M2O to support your educated assumptions? DW foiling is in its infancy, what we are now seeing is talent transfer from other sports that allow skills and experience's to be transfered across and applied to a young sport.

You said it, James did not prepare physically for the effort. The Code 680R was good enough to be on the podium Andrew did on a Lift 110.

My take. Last year the participants weren't skilled enough to know what they were doing and they didn't plan or train accordingly. M2o has never been a dead downwind race. But m2o has always been the prestigious race. (Because it's hard!) so the participants who wanted to win m2o because it's the "best", changed the course to do their style of racing. Thereby ruining what was prestigious about m2o.
so they got their way and they got their podiums. Now the course has changed. Whether that's better or worse depends on the person. To me it's much worse. It's a dumbed down drag race with much less strategy. I still had fun watching dots and will continue to watch dots next year. At least I wasn't rooting for boats this year. Well except for edo of course ??

I don't do the sport. Just my opinion.

oh and the tahitian twins have been flat water paddling up dw boards for at least two years.

Nathan van Vuuren used a Signature Glider R110 (710sqcm) which I believe is available to buy, as did a couple of other Signatrure riders and Nate made the top 10 in M2M (6th) and M2O (8th), basically the best non-Hawaiian.

He certainly did not train the way Edo did and hadn't done a downwind in two months prior to the 4 days before the M2M where he arrived in Maui and got a few Maliko runs in. It was his first ever M2M, and on M2O, he'd never seen or done the finish section. He got swiped by boat wakes just before the M2O finish, fell, and lost two places and mis-judged the M2M finish and came off foil and lost two places there as well. The downwind run he does in Cape Town is basically a bay run, so he is always about 5-10km/h/km slower on his training runs, and his longest run is 20km.

Nate did not have ideal preparations, used stock gear and was still in with a shout. After the events he has been testing out all sorts of frontwings and tails and been clocking over 40km/h top-speeds on the Maliko run. To me that is what the racing is about. You do a couple, figure out what is missing and get inspired by the guys who beat you to go and better yourself next time out.

My days of racing competitively are over, and I was never great, but I enjoyed the motiviation it gave me to try harder next time. My hope is that downwind racing will do the same, as that is what keeps people coming back. And if it requires Edo-like stamina, then so be it.

Mountain biking is also fun - until you do a race, then the strongest, best prepared rider wins, and yet, several hundreds rock up every week-end to race.

Select to expand quote

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..

PeterP said..

Hank1 said..

AnyBoard said..
Interesting listening to james's latest Casey's catch up. Lots of diplomacy in his words but the concern for where dw racing is going is obvious. The latest Proto's were not really about being able to keep up with the swell as that was yesterdays requirement, now it seems it's about their ability to pump up and over even the fast swells. It sounds like racing is moving from a skill bias to a fitness and equipment bias. Some seem happy with this direction but I don't like the look of where it is going.

If they had to paddle up without the paddle then that would limit the foil design criteria to something more useful to the mere mortals. Maybe limiting board lengths to 6' could achieve the same thing.

I wonder how some feel about the brand they are committed to using their small R&D budget to build foils for racing with design criteria unlikely to be useful for us punters while we wait for them to release something as good as their competitors dw foils that we can't mount to our brands mast.

Concerned about where DW racing is going???

In sports, racing is a competition of speed, in which competitors try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time.

How is the ability to pump up and over is not a skill? Its an element of racing which involves skill based technique and tactics.

The competitors on the podium, Men and Women have obviously applied themselves to understand all the elements involved to RACE the channels faster than last year. The podium were prepared, technically, tactically, physically, psychologically and equipment.

Andrew was on the podium on a Lift 110. Axis, Armstrong and Code all have production foils that can match that. Andrew obviously prepared himself to push hard for the entire race, others didn't and couldn't.

Completely agree with Hank1's comments - pumping up and over requires a massive skill-set and it also happens to require a lot of physical stamina. Go and listen to Edo's 2023 recap from last year - he was by far the fastest in the channel in 2023, having chosen a smaller foil than most, but he made a lot of mistakes and this year he applied everything he'd learned from last year and made very few, if any mistakes, and won. In my view Casey and Oscar didn't learn enough from last years event. If they had listened to Edo's recap they would have understood that if Edo could iron out just a couple of mistakes he would've won last year as well. Edo went out too hard in 2023 and wasted 10-13minutes trying to recover + overdid it again before China Wall and fell a few times and which meant he didn't quite have enough left for the flat spell - and he still ended up only marginally behind Casey and Oscar. Had he managed his race fractionally better in 2023 he would have won by a few minutes.

To try and water down the physical effort of downwind racing is going to be difficult (read impossible) as you will always have the fittest most skilful rider rise to the top no matter what amount of rules you try and introduce. This race proved there is virtually no difference between production and proto's (pre-production) and if you introduce max 6ft boards it will favour the 60kg guys and if you have a min. foil size it will favour the heavier guys. Leave it as it is, if you really want to win a race, buy yourself a compettive foil and do what Edo did.

What I'm getting at is that, yes, the foil matters, but ultimately Edo just prepared better than anyone and knew that if he could build up enough fitness he could win by limiting mistakes and of course being on a fast foil. Edo was best prepared this year, end of story.

I think James admits he didn't train for what Edo and a few others were able to do. The point for me is that axis Armstrong and code foils weren't good enough to allow the riders to imagine that this new style of riding would be possible and most importantly efficient enough to be sustainable over distance.
James says he tried the new style in the m2o and stops short of specifically saying that even over short periods his equipment wasn't supportive but that is how I read between the lines.

It seems only lift were competitive with production foils in this matter.

Now hank1 think about it this way. Last year edo's setup meant he blew out very early with the new style and this year his equipment significantly supported this style of riding with less physicality than would have been required on last years equipment. Also fone has three models of dw foils with a large size range in each and the eagle x has literally just come out and yet Edo rode another proto again that is clearly better at supporting this style of riding and making it sustainable over distance. It still requires great skill no doubt but my argument is that is is no where near as skill focused as going faster on last years foils.

note a 16 year old with one years foiling experiences was able to smoke all bar 4 of the whole field. Obviously very talented but doesn't this alone suggest the skill and experience part is being dumbed down along with the average age of the top results. Could that have been done on last years equipment or even the year before?. I am making plenty of educated assumptions but happy to be corrected if someone knows more.

it not about who wins for me just about where the sport is going.

Anyboard,

I would suggest that are making a lot of assumption's on outcomes without any supporting data and without considering all the factors that contribute to high performance in an endurance event.

Was the actual difference maker Edo's foils this year comparing to last years performance or was it a combination of factors, including being better prepared with his strength and conditioning and nutrition from experience from last years race. Meaning if he prepared the way he did for this years race last year would he have been able to sustain the effort to win the race? Remembering last years course was different. Edo is probably the only one to accurately answer these questions. Data in each of the areas mentioned is a the true indicator.

In regards to the 16 year olds results. I find it somewhat disrespectful to the kids performance to suggest that because he is 16 years old that he doesn't have the same skill as elder more experienced competitors? Do you know this for a fact, have you conducted a comprehensive skills assessment for the field of competitors for this years M2O to support your educated assumptions? DW foiling is in its infancy, what we are now seeing is talent transfer from other sports that allow skills and experience's to be transfered across and applied to a young sport.

You said it, James did not prepare physically for the effort. The Code 680R was good enough to be on the podium Andrew did on a Lift 110.

Yes the 16 year old has exception skills (and obviously a lot more than a years experience at a very high level so my bad to exaggerate) and will probably be wining the M2O next year but my point was what are the skills we are talking about here? The results speak for themselves so no intended disrespect from me and no need for a skills assessment because the race is the race and the drag race has begun. Equipment and fitness will dominate and are already doing so for all to see. The lift 110 F was just released and obviously the current market leader and props to them again.

My point is quoted below. .
"The point for me is that axis Armstrong and code foils weren't good enough to allow the riders to imagine that this new style of riding would be possible and most importantly efficient enough to be sustainable over distance." If you cant imagine it then you wont be training for it as we agree.
I unusually agree with HDIP on the drag race. Some quotes of 1'50s average per kilometer for EDO which is impressive no matter how you look at it but all evolved sports have rules and DW has yet to evolve theirs which i guess is where this discussion fired up. Some like i see the need while others obviously don't.

Funny how I personally am trying to stop my beginners intuition of just pumping over and instead learn better to join the disappearing and reappearing dots of power and the satisfaction the resulting ride offers. Different sport now i also guess.

Funny I thought the racing aspect of sup dw foil would self-destruct when the foils were good enough for us punters to keep speed with the faster swells of the session as where else can it go. We would all be pretty much just cruising along at the same maximum speed with minimum effort.

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Piros said..

tightlines said.I'm intrigued as to why you think a prone board would be so much faster?

I don't think that the size or weight of the board is the reason Dave Kalama can't match it with the young ones, I put it down to fitness, age and determination etc.

For those out there that dw on prone and SUP and are fairly competent on both are any of you faster on prone?
I know there are a few crew in Perth that do both but I always thought that was more about being able to 'surf' the smaller board rather than going faster?

I could understand a prone could be more fun to throw around and surf but does that translate to faster from A to B?

The argument could be that they are easier to pump, which is true for surfing and linking waves but for DW I'm yet to be convinced that is the case.

Maybe it's because they are more aerodynamic but if you are going with the wind I don't think there would be much difference there either.

Or perhaps its because they are cooler.

It's just a physics thing , less is best . You don't see anyone dock starting or going for pump records on a Sup for that exact reason , swing weight is a killer. It will take awhile to come through and sure the paddle helps mid race as well on flat sections but given the talent and youth in this last race anything is now possible.

Eppo said:- haha just was told edo's proto for the race is called the Momentum and was 600cm2 at 17AR!

Seriously 17 aspect ratio that's mental ........

So following the logic "less is best" if the course is the same as this year all the SUP guys will be hoping back on 6' boards next year instead of 8-9' boards.
I personally doubt it , downwinding on a sup is not like dock starting or flatwater pumping where I am sure less is best.

To prone paddle up on the same small foils as the sup guys they are going to have to be on pretty much the same length boards. It would be different if they were getting flicked in behind a ski.
As others have said the weight and length may actually help keep momentum and smooth out the ride
That is what I choose to believe until I see otherwise anyway

Also IMO, purely as a spectator, I preferred the traditional more tactical/technical course

Hobey Moss on Casey catch up along with other Hawaiian riders have said multiple times the longer boards are faster and pump better.

Channel races in all disciplines have traditionally integrated all aspects of their sport in the extreme; fitness/stamina, technical skill, strategy and ocean knowledge- reading water, adapting to varying conditions. The current iteration is pretty cool- but is not exactly that. With the speed of the foil, I think the OC6 course for the Molokai Hoe may be closer- a better fit to crown a Downwind Foil World Champ by testing all these attributes. That course is 41 miles starting on the south side of Molokai from Hale o Lono harbor- finishing in Waikiki. You go coastal run along Molokai's south shore, to the Kaiwi channel quartered by prevailing trade-winds, to coastal run up Oahu. Every year's race with Kaiwi's fickle moods favor distinct strategies depending on predicted and seen conditions with wind, swell, current and tide. Small things make a huge difference; can completely change a race- pacing, nutrition, equipment choices, going straight rhumb line across the channel north or more southerly routes... being gifted a set wave as you come in.

We're just starting with this sport and this race for foil and ironing out what works in what conditions. As equipment is refined/specialized and that stuff is all sussed out and common knowledge it will become less a factor and more about the individual to get into contention... and then inevitably what the channel decides- gives or takes on that day.

Simeon on the 600 momentum wing Edo used. I think Simeon used the 700.

www.instagram.com/reel/C-vYPkFvHVO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Considering a stock foil anyone can buy took 3rd in M2O and only 1:40 behind a 17AR proto, the proto isn't looking too good. Maybe Edo could have increased that lead on a stock Lift 110