i know it's the Sup foil forum but where else do I ask this ?
so where are we at with our prone board build ideas?

I am seeing some interesting things in the Sup/ wing board design changes (back to square tails and rails, no bevels etc to match our more advanced Ha foils we are all starting to use) - so just wondering if anyone has looked into / even used some interesting new prone board ideas.
what's working/ what's not etc

I am 80kg and quite middle aged and average condition and wearing a 5mm wetsuit....so the tiny board thing hasn't worked well for me. Flotation is my friend. I have gone from 5' 50L down to 5' 40L and then down to 4.9 30ish L, and the surfing was fun for an hour, then gassed from pushing water while paddling.

I have recently done an experiment, prompted by the wing boards: short and thick. The 4.4 was a challenge, but the 4.6 is now my go-to....both are 4-4.25" thick and 19" wide. I can paddle it no problem, if anything it is more buoyant than my 5'x20.5x2.75.

The 2nd part of the experiment is v in the nose through the center. Inspired by appletree pro foil, but not quite as extreme, adding narrow chines. Idea is to push water and get up quicker. Does it work? Hard to say. I think maybe a slight improvement.

3rd experiment is a scoop tail like Ride Engine Escape Pd. He says the white water breaking against it improves forward momentum. Probably a minimal help, but why not try. I think the mechanics are a little different for getting up on foil with a wing board (parallel to water and up) vs getting up on foil propelled by a wave (forward and then down). As i understand it, on a wing board the straight tail acts like the tip of a lever or a skateboard tail....it is the surface that pushes up the ollie. Surf foiling isn't like that, doesn't seem to need it. Also more dynamic, generally, so a tail cut out more likely to help with clearance to avoid some touchdowns. IMHO!

At 95kg, my 40L prone board is too small. Sure I could catch waves, and yeah it was nice and lightweight in the air. But I'll be honest, I'm having a ton more fun on by new 56L 5'4". Coming from SUP foiling, it feels like a feather in the air and pumps ridiculously well compared to a SUP. But most importantly, I can go out on any day and catch waves. With the 40L board, on the wrong day it is just no fun at all. I've been impressed with the shape - has all the bells and whistles in terms of shape - its a KT drifter F.

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jondrums said..
At 95kg, my 40L prone board is too small. Sure I could catch waves, and yeah it was nice and lightweight in the air. But I'll be honest, I'm having a ton more fun on by new 56L 5'4". Coming from SUP foiling, it feels like a feather in the air and pumps ridiculously well compared to a SUP. But most importantly, I can go out on any day and catch waves. With the 40L board, on the wrong day it is just no fun at all. I've been impressed with the shape - has all the bells and whistles in terms of shape - its a KT drifter F.

Totally agree with what you are saying jondrums volume has always been my best-friend and I'm like you. I'm 60yo Old Man @ 95kg - 90kg if I keep off the beers - 85kg if a do a little training. But it's taken me 3 years and 10 months to find my magic Prone-foilboard.

I started on a 6'3'' x 22'' x 4''1/2 @ 78L but after say 20 goes, I went to a 5'10" then 5'5'' then 5'0''

My 5'0'' x 22" x 4'' @ 60L is such a magic board for my weight and age, she paddles fast you can duck-dive her and she is easy to pump.

This is my new 4'10" x 22'' 4'' @ 58L she like a month old I've Prone-foiled her 6 times already. Bringing me up to "day's 186" Loving the feel of the 4'10'' with the AXIS 101 wing. She paddles fast, Bulk Easy to pump. But I have to put a lot of weight on the nose when I duck-dive her or she'll pop out the back cartwheeling me.

(I'm just counting my Prone-foil days until I reach day 365 so it'll be one year on the foil-board for me - It may take 10 years at the rate I'm foiling) but hay who's counting, only me.

I can't see myself going any smaller than this 4'10'' as I like the feeling of my knees on the board when I'm paddling.
For us Old guys in there 50's and 60's who are Heavyweights I believe 22'' inches is the magic width, by at least 4'' inches thick, with volume in the 50 litre-age, range.

Great info peeps. I will need to sit, read and digest. Cheers hey.
eppo

ps I'm only 75kg but with my crappy AC joint I'm probably in the same boat as you guys paddling wise. But I also like to pump and link so looking for that capabilities as well - hence as short as possible I presume.

To add (and hopefully get som feedback) my concern is not just volume but hull design. You want that balance between maximising paddling ability but also pump ability to link multiple waves
(And I secretly would like develop my sink start wing skills as well).
.
I'm still on an old original Amos design. It's only 5 foot (about 40l) but it's a tad too long and I can feel unnecessary swing weight and volume at the front. It impedes pump ability. Still doable but hard work.

but it paddles and catches waves well. It has a flat bottom no concave through it on the bottom and some really rounded - almost non existent chimes


.
my concern is adding extra volume, shortening it and adding sharper chimes it may feel "boaty" when paddling. Meaning power through the paddle stroke will be lost to boaty "yawing" of the board. Power gets lost in side to side and not transferred efficiently to forward speed.


Can anyone comment on such things who knows what they are talking about (unlike me) ???

Never noticed a difference between chines and flat bottom. Shorter is definitely better for pumping and once up riding but it's a compromise with paddle-ability. I do notice the yawing with my short board when paddling. I'm 75kg and ride a 4'3" x 18.5 @33l and a 4'6" x 17" @ 35l. The narrowness of the 4'6 feels like it cuts through the water and doesn't yaw like the shorter/wider board when paddling.

Dave Kalama proning with weird hand paddles and what looks like a canoe shaped prone board
www.instagram.com/reel/CPtK23xJolb/?utm_medium=copy_link

I would be interested in hearing what the difference in performance is between the double concave and V on the underside of a foilboard.

Anyone tried or have both types ?

Or even the triple like the ...

Armstrong Surf Tow Wake 411(150cm/38L) Foilboard

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shaka808 said..
Never noticed a difference between chines and flat bottom. Shorter is definitely better for pumping and once up riding but it's a compromise with paddle-ability. I do notice the yawing with my short board when paddling. I'm 75kg and ride a 4'3" x 18.5 @33l and a 4'6" x 17" @ 35l. The narrowness of the 4'6 feels like it cuts through the water and doesn't yaw like the shorter/wider board when paddling.

I wonder if yawing is increased with thicker (more volume) boards as well given same length ?

Im 75kg but there's no way I could paddle your short board. My son had a 4'4 about the same volume and that went no where far me. Or more to the point I was forced to catch waves in critical sections.

"I would be interested in hearing what the difference in performance is between the double concave and V on the underside of a foilboard. "

I am experimenting with this, done a prone surf and a wing/sup board with the Appletree style vee bottom, though not quite as extreme


I *think* it may have slightly earlier lift...but honestly, I would say the difference is negligible if any at all. That is more or less what I expected, as I have doubts about bottom shape having much impact in foiling. Call me cynical, but the tricked out concaves and steps and sexy features are likely more about marketing than performance. (the old thing about fishing lures designed to catch fishermen rather than fish)

The new trend for wing boards is dead flat...simple and effective.

Old 4'8" WCFC no concaves, flat bottom, chines on the rails. New 52foilco 4'6" maybe 1 more liter of volume than the WCFC but all the fancy concaves on the bottom.

4'8" catches waves better. I attribute it to the 2 inches in length. It could be the flat bottom.

Seems to me that the deep/sharp double concave with sharp edges (KT and Freedom where the first to do this) at the tail (with straignt kick) helps especially for hitting white wash, it dosen't stick, it is like you rebound super fast.

I'm experimenting the concave on the rail at the back of the back but I still prefer to keep the front half part with ronder rail.

The thing is at the end, all those concave (bottom and rail), you loose a lot of volume.

My next board should be more simple, I will keep a light recess deck for sure and a double concave.

Looks like Adam Bennets JS foil board has nothing too fancy.

Yeh the JS black eagle? Was looking at that today. Apparently they go well. Has a double concave up front but it's subtle. The rest is pretty straight out and simple.

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frenchfoiler said..
Looks like Adam Bennets JS foil board has nothing too fancy.

Quote from JS website
"A scoop deck makes sure your feet are closer to the foil for quicker response, while beveled rails and deep double concave in the nose stops the board sticking to the water whenever it touches back down.Additionally, this early double concave acts as two channels, helping you paddle straight, pop up and get to wave speed quickly."

But just looking at the pics on the JS site provided they look pretty basic.

Imho, these boards look spot on - just a shame you can't order the exact size you need/want.

Yeh the volume of them is for advanced light weights!

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eppo said..
Yeh the volume of them is for advanced light weights!

Or maybe they are on the money regarding volume/thickness/length ?



My current boards are 4'3@28L - 4'4@30.5L, to get a Black Eagle I'd have to go 4'6 minimum.

The extra length should help with getting in earlier but will it feel as good once on foil ?

The top riders are pushing more and more on speed,carves,foam hits and jumps.

My prediction (most probably wrong) is that we will see boards with a pretty straight flat or V center third section all the way to the tail for paddle speed and the outside thirds shaped more like a "normal" surfboard.With softer rails and rocker to the tail.
So when they touch the water while turning or pivoting they will have a familiar reaction.
Just guessing though :)

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mcrt said..
The top riders are pushing more and more on speed,carves,foam hits and jumps.

My prediction (most probably wrong) is that we will see boards with a pretty straight flat or V center third section all the way to the tail for paddle speed and the outside thirds shaped more like a "normal" surfboard.With softer rails and rocker to the tail.
So when they touch the water while turning or pivoting they will have a familiar reaction.
Just guessing though :)

That sounds a bit like my old Amos shape to be honest, And yeh she paddles well. Looks like these boards are quite similar except more sophisticated front third with the double concave and of course much more stiffer. The Amos is as soft as pudding.
I think a local surf shop owner retails these boards might try and see if I can try one.

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frenchfoiler said..
Seems to me that the deep/sharp double concave with sharp edges (KT and Freedom where the first to do this) at the tail (with straignt kick) helps especially for hitting white wash, it dosen't stick, it is like you rebound super fast.

I can't speak to rebounding off white water ... sadly not sure I ever will

The bounce off I have in mind is accidental touch-downs at speed, particularly winging. I feel like my new board pictured above (I'll call it half vee) has more a splash down than my prior flat board. It kind of dives into the water a bit before it rebounds back up. I picture boat hulls smashing through waves, a deep v hull cuts through the waves more, a flat hull bounces/slaps. For a boat, the deep hull rides a lot better ... but for this foiling use, the flat hull slapping may actually be preferable, if it bounces you back up quicker. [though impact on my board is confounded by the new board also being a fair bit smaller]

Something I've wondered about with foilboards, is how the mast area needing to be flat messes up the bottom design for concaves. On surfboards it is channelling the water out optimally, but these design possibilities are limited. As well, if concaves do their thing at planing speed, that also limits their usefulness -- other than high speed touchdowns I guess. Dunno, it's a mystery still. Interesting to see the trend going back to simpler.

My latest prone board 4-2 x 19-3/4 x 32 litres . Carrying a bit of winter fat at 90 kg but still will float me fine . Full carbon 3.1kg with grip.

www.instagram.com/p/CSF0knCBXq9/?utm_medium=copy_link

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eppo said..
Yeh the volume of them is for advanced light weights!

Thats what I ride - its a pretty good board. I have two problems with it though:

Its a hard paddle back on longer point breaks - the 4'8 at 31 litres starts getting a bit tiring.

Another problem is the gloss finish cracks when it bangs around on the back of a jetski sled (held on by occy straps).

I agree on the gloss finish on the JS, that put me off once I saw one at my local.

Also, custom sizes - to me this means you order a custom to the size you would like...not choose between ordering a 4'4 or 4'6.

I most probably would have one by now if I could order the size I want.

Yeah the ski can be brutal on boards , I used to have a JS but wrecked it . I'm pretty tough on my gear that's why I'm custom on everything now but there are plenty of good tough production boards out there.

On the Ski I only use our 4'5 fully molded full PVC full carbon sandwich prone board as this thing is tough as nails, I have run it over so many times and the thing is just bomb proof. I love having a board like this that you just don't have to worry about looking after and knowing you are not going to wreak it when towing or just don't give a ****. www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/foil-prone-boards The light blue board is the 4'5.

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Piros said..
Yeah the ski can be brutal on boards , I used to have a JS but wrecked it . I'm pretty tough on my gear that's why I'm custom on everything now but there are plenty of good tough production boards out there.

You reckon that's from the occy straps on the sled ?

Those are stress cracks but are you a sinker start or wakeboard style start. It's not from the straps. You have a 2.7kg high performance board. Ski bumps and arse dragging starts is not what it's designed for. The cleanest way to start tow foiling is sink the board as the rope comes around and you just pop up with minimal pressure. Starting side on like a wake board loads the board so bad . Learn to sink it , it's way faster , safer & much less pressure on the board.

Sorry to post such a long video but just watch the sinking start in the first 5 secs of the video , he is riding a JS 4-2 and it's still in mint condition. No stress marks at all.

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Piros said..
My latest prone board 4-2 x 19-3/4 x 32 litres . Carrying a bit of winter fat at 90 kg but still will float me fine . Full carbon 3.1kg with grip.

www.instagram.com/p/CSF0knCBXq9/?utm_medium=copy_link

Nice board.

One thing I have noticed is the box positionning is very different from one brand to another and i guess it has a lot to do with the foil you use.
With my Unifoil 170 I need the box more forward even on a 4'3.