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Piros said..

Pacey said..

Piros said..
This thread sort of got side tracked . What we are talking about is the further your feet is away from the the top of the mast and they are off centre the angle of lean is increased . It's like putting 2" blocks on top of a skate board . Minor adjustments become major adjustments. So when we talk about more feel on a thinner board that's exactly what we mean . Mast length has nothing to do with it . I've lost count of how many custom prone boards I've had made but the first priority is to keep it as thin as I can . Once you have ridden a high performance thinner board you will never go back , the feeling , drive and narrower rail profile which makes contact with the wave and releases in the turn giving you more speed is where it's all at . You just can't do that with big fat bog rails. Yes of course you still need enough foam for float and paddle , recessed decks are a great alternative but as you get better , less is best .

I went up to an 85cm mast from a 72cm mast a couple of months ago, by your logic this would make my board way harder to ride. But it doesn't. There isn't a hinge at the top of the mast like on a set of skateboard trucks- the board to mast base connection is rigid.
I can understand that on a prone board in the surf where the rail is contacting the water there will be a difference. But on a board that is clear of the water, I just don't see that there is going to be any effect as you describe

Just try a thinner board you'll know what I mean then.

Actually I've just gone from a thinner board with a concave deck to a thicker board (5 1/4") with a flat deck for winging and I can't feel any difference.

But I appreciate this is not the same as for prone foiling where carving angles may be higher and rail contact occurs more frequently, and in this case I agree that the extra thickness may be a liability

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Downwinder said..
I first tried Booties in Timor 1995 it was like 8-10ft (Timor has as much grunt as Cloudbreak but without the barrel) I was wearing the Rip Curl Reef Booties with the split toe

The important bit is the latex sole. it really gives a barefoot sensation. With the Rip Curl (and others), you feel like wearing shoes, could not stand the feeling.

I was mentioning the split toes, because it is very useful with latex soles. As they are so flexible, you need something to prevent your foot rolling in the boots. Split toe, or maybe strap are thus useful.

Alas, the latex sole get easily punctured by urchins. Atan makes a model with a kevlar layer in the sole to prevent this, but I have not tried them.

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Pacey said..

Piros said..

Pacey said..

Piros said..
This thread sort of got side tracked . What we are talking about is the further your feet is away from the the top of the mast and they are off centre the angle of lean is increased . It's like putting 2" blocks on top of a skate board . Minor adjustments become major adjustments. So when we talk about more feel on a thinner board that's exactly what we mean . Mast length has nothing to do with it . I've lost count of how many custom prone boards I've had made but the first priority is to keep it as thin as I can . Once you have ridden a high performance thinner board you will never go back , the feeling , drive and narrower rail profile which makes contact with the wave and releases in the turn giving you more speed is where it's all at . You just can't do that with big fat bog rails. Yes of course you still need enough foam for float and paddle , recessed decks are a great alternative but as you get better , less is best .

I went up to an 85cm mast from a 72cm mast a couple of months ago, by your logic this would make my board way harder to ride. But it doesn't. There isn't a hinge at the top of the mast like on a set of skateboard trucks- the board to mast base connection is rigid.
I can understand that on a prone board in the surf where the rail is contacting the water there will be a difference. But on a board that is clear of the water, I just don't see that there is going to be any effect as you describe

Just try a thinner board you'll know what I mean then.

Actually I've just gone from a thinner board with a concave deck to a thicker board (5 1/4") with a flat deck for winging and I can't feel any difference.

But I appreciate this is not the same as for prone foiling where carving angles may be higher and rail contact occurs more frequently, and in this case I agree that the extra thickness may be a liability

I guess you feel the difference when you reach a good level, probably not much difference for just cruising.

Once again I don't do much winging so I won't say too much. People use inflatable wing board but I haven't seen any body on a inflatable surf foil or sup dw.

For me the feeling you have under your feet, the connection of the foil with the board, those things are super important, as important as the foil itself.
A good foil with a weak conncection to the board won't give you 100% performance of the foil.
Same thing with your feet to the board, a soft board won't give you as much performance. This is why carbone boards are so popular when it comes to Performance.

Once again for beginning it does not matter as much.

Interesting thread. I am in the midst of experimenting with thicker but shorter surf prone boards. First two are 4x19x4.25 and 4.4x19x4. These replace my trusty 5x20.5x2.75. Goal is to go shorter for less swing weight and better pumping, but still be paddleable by a middle aged mortal. I am 20 years past the "potato chip surfboard" experimentation. Volume is my friend.

The 4' is challenging, but the 4.4 was immediately comfortable, paddles easy, able to catch and foil waves immediately. I estimated i have lost 5-10% catchability in small surf, relative to buddies trying for the same waves. As for pumping, I got my first 3 for 1 in the first session. I am still not quite pump monkeying, but feels like just on the verge.

I have noticed no difference in feel in riding or turning, other than easier pumping. Though I am not really a "ripper", more permanent advanced intermediate. I would like to have a ripper try it side by side with another thinner "high performance" board to get a real comparison ... same foil, same waves, an objective comparison. I'll try to get that going sometime soon.

I feel like every time someone says their thinner board is better than their thicker board, they also say the thinner one has a concave deck, and the thicker one has a flat deck. Anyone with a thick concave deck? Could just be the concave helps with rail to rail movements, and the thickness isn't what you're noticing, but the concave deck.

I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel? For me, weight is pretty important and one of the big 2 or 3 things that make up a good board.

By the way, I ride both flat deck and concave deck boards and they both have pro's and con's so really it always baffles me when people say one way is so much better than the other when they both work fine.

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paul.j said..
I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel? For me, weight is pretty important and one of the big 2 or 3 things that make up a good board.

By the way, I ride both flat deck and concave deck boards and they both have pro's and con's so really it always baffles me when people say one way is so much better than the other when they both work fine.

Paul, appreciate your opinion on this because you have more experience in this area than anyone I can think of. Regardless of the flat versus concave argument, have you built any small, thick boards, say greater than 5" but without a big deck recess, and if so, what did you think of them?

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paul.j said..
I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel?

+1.

Note that Gong stopped making concave decks because they felt the cons outweighed (literally... it trapped water at times) the pros.

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paul.j said..
I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel? For me, weight is pretty important and one of the big 2 or 3 things that make up a good board.

By the way, I ride both flat deck and concave deck boards and they both have pro's and con's so really it always baffles me when people say one way is so much better than the other when they both work fine.

I definitely agree and appreciate the benefits of light boards.
But... I also ride an efoil Flightboard at about 30kg and it is amazingly agile and sensitive to feel, could be just having power on demand.

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Pacey said..

paul.j said..
I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel? For me, weight is pretty important and one of the big 2 or 3 things that make up a good board.

By the way, I ride both flat deck and concave deck boards and they both have pro's and con's so really it always baffles me when people say one way is so much better than the other when they both work fine.

Paul, appreciate your opinion on this because you have more experience in this area than anyone I can think of. Regardless of the flat versus concave argument, have you built any small, thick boards, say greater than 5" but without a big deck recess, and if so, what did you think of them?

The board I ride right now is 5ft x 90L with pretty much a flat deck and it feels unreal, I also just made myself a production one with out strap inserts that weighs 5kg exactly which I get in a few days which I am pretty excited about. Take out the inserts and we save about 600g so the boards are pretty light anyway. I don't jump so I don't want the extra weight. All our ding boards are pretty thick and mostly flat deck and they all feel sweet.

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colas said..

paul.j said..
I'm not going to get too involved in this flat v's concave deck but also maybe the weight of the boards has more to the way the boards feel?

+1.

Note that Gong stopped making concave decks because they felt the cons outweighed (literally... it trapped water at times) the pros.

Yeah only really get the water on the deck if you catch the wave late and one or two pumps it's mostly gone so for me that's really not any main issue.

We are more about volume distribution and the way the boards feel on the foil and getting that side right.

Even a flat deck board will hold water on the deck if you really watch it on a late take off. So many cool things to play with is always exciting.

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paul.j said.
The board I ride right now is 5ft x 90L with pretty much a flat deck and it feels unreal, that weighs 5kg exactly

Interesting; I have a SUP that is 6ft x 129L that weighs 7.7kg - and she's 39L more than yours and only 2.7L extra she goes unreal. I'm now going smaller. But still keeping the volume around the 130L at around 7kg.

I'm a big fan of the Flat Deck - I've had a go on a few guys concave deck prone foilboards and SUP's at Burleigh. Concave Decks feel so uncomfortable to paddle especially on a Prone foilboard. Give me the surfboard flat deck feel any day they feel so comfortable.

I was talking with a mate of yours today actually!!! He told me you are trying to get rid of all your concave deck model in the shop. So even that quote is saying something. Like I don't careless, but I'd never own a concave deck foil.

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Downwinder said..

paul.j said.
The board I ride right now is 5ft x 90L with pretty much a flat deck and it feels unreal, that weighs 5kg exactly

I was talking with a mate of yours today actually!!! He told me you are trying to get rid of all your concave deck model in the shop. So even that quote is saying something. Like I don't careless, but I'd never own a concave deck foil.

Never let a good rumor get in the way of the truth hey!!

Definitely not getting rid of the concave deck boards so maybe before helping spread the rumours just ask the source as I find that usually works best.

Concave deck boards are sick and I love them as they do give a very direct feel but making a 5ft board at 90L means we have to put the volume somewhere so the concave has to go.

You may now continue to spread the next rumour you here on the beach.

By the way if we are trying to get rid of them why would I have a heap of new ones arriving next week?

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Downwinder said..

paul.j said.
The board I ride right now is 5ft x 90L with pretty much a flat deck and it feels unreal, that weighs 5kg exactly

Interesting; I have a SUP that is 6ft x 129L that weighs 7.7kg - and she's 39L more than yours and only 2.7L extra she goes unreal. I'm now going smaller. But still keeping the volume around the 130L at around 7kg.

Hey I am truly happy for you and from a guy who once said SUP foiling sucks and is gay as f**k I am stoked you seen the light!

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paul.j said.
Hey I am truly happy for you and from a guy who once said SUP foiling sucks and is gay as f**k I am stoked you seen the light!

Hahahaha, GOLD. Paul,J. Or shall I say wacko Jacko. Sorry for the late reply mate been busy.

YES, it's TRUE. I did say that to a couple of mate's at Burleigh near on 2 years ago already. SUP foiling in the surf is as G#y as F@#@K it truly is.

SUP-foiling as a DOWNWIND sport is not G@y. It's an ELITE Sprint Sport.

SUP-foiling Downwind in the OCEAN is where it's at, it looks like Bulk Fun. And is something I truly want to conquer before I go back to Maui in 2022.

SUP foiling in the surf is as G#y as f@#@k. I've watched guys at Burleigh/Alley and It's taken them a while like forever e.g. years to work it out
"it was a punish to watch e.g. insulting" Not only that they can be a real Menace. About 2 weeks ago, early morning weekend the Burleigh Rocky was fun BULK SURFERS out on their high performance surfboards. Here are these 3 stooges on their Foil-SUP's foiling amongst the surfers like WFT dangerous s@#t more like Dangerous as f@#@k. I can see why surfers are OFF foilers in Australia.

Also

I was surfing Greenmount say 4 weeks ago on my high performance surfboard at low-tide only small but it was pumping Greenmount. A guy was on a Prone-foilboard in amongst the surfer like WFT. I said mate ( if you foil on the Gold Coast, you'd know whom I'm talking about - I won't name him to protect the stupid dumbA@#s ) he's says G'day Phil, I said mate you need to f@#k off to Kirra., Heaps of surfers told him to f@#@k off.

YES, I have been learning SUP-foiling in the surf so I can work it out. As soon as I can get a SUP Downwind foil in and work it out. You will never see me in the surf on a SUP-foilboard again. Every time the wind looks good to try SUP Downwind foiling the wind is either too South West or the Points have been just firing for a shortboard session, so I've mist out so far on learning how to Downwind Ocean SUP-foiling. Even in the Seaway lately when the wind has been good the tide has been wrong.

I've only had 36 goes on my SUP-foilboard in the surf and it has taken me nearly 2 years already to get up to 36 SUP-foil sessions in the surf. I'm using the 1150 AXIS wing. And loving it, I just stand there and she Glides forever with a little pump here and a little pump there; you can glide everywhere. YES I'm working on the pump back-out, slowly mastering it.

My Ocean equipment in order of Preference.

1. Shortboard = I have like 20+ surfboards, I love surfing at 59yo I've been surfing 50 years already.

2. 9ft High Performance Longboard = I have 4 x Longboards.

3. Unlimited 18ft SUP Downwind

4. 12ft Prone Paddleboard for Downwind

5. Prone foilboard in the surf = 180 days in nearly 4 years already have gone from a 6'3'' to a 5'10'' to a 5'5'' to a 5'0'' to a 4'10'' = what next.

6. SUP-foiling Downwind

7. SUP-foiling in the surf. I've gone down from a 6'2'' down to a 6'0'' now riding a 5'10" = what next.

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Downwinder said..

paul.j said.
Hey I am truly happy for you and from a guy who once said SUP foiling sucks and is gay as f**k I am stoked you seen the light!

Hahahaha, GOLD. Paul,J. Or shall I say wacko Jacko. Sorry for the late reply mate been busy.

YES, it's TRUE. I did say that to a couple of mate's at Burleigh near on 2 years ago already. SUP foiling in the surf is as G#y as F@#@K it truly is.

SUP-foiling as a DOWNWIND sport is not G@y. It's an ELITE Sprint Sport.

SUP-foiling Downwind in the OCEAN is where it's at, it looks like Bulk Fun. And is something I truly want to conquer before I go back to Maui in 2022.

SUP foiling in the surf is as G#y as f@#@k. I've watched guys at Burleigh/Alley and It's taken them a while like forever e.g. years to work it out
"it was a punish to watch e.g. insulting" Not only that they can be a real Menace. About 2 weeks ago, early morning weekend the Burleigh Rocky was fun BULK SURFERS out on their high performance surfboards. Here are these 3 stooges on their Foil-SUP's foiling amongst the surfers like WFT dangerous s@#t more like Dangerous as f@#@k. I can see why surfers are OFF foilers in Australia.

Also

I was surfing Greenmount say 4 weeks ago on my high performance surfboard at low-tide only small but it was pumping Greenmount. A guy was on a Prone-foilboard in amongst the surfer like WFT. I said mate ( if you foil on the Gold Coast, you'd know whom I'm talking about - I won't name him to protect the stupid dumbA@#s ) he's says G'day Phil, I said mate you need to f@#k off to Kirra., Heaps of surfers told him to f@#@k off.

YES, I have been learning SUP-foiling in the surf so I can work it out. As soon as I can get a SUP Downwind foil in and work it out. You will never see me in the surf on a SUP-foilboard again. Every time the wind looks good to try SUP Downwind foiling the wind is either too South West or the Points have been just firing for a shortboard session, so I've mist out so far on learning how to Downwind Ocean SUP-foiling. Even in the Seaway lately when the wind has been good the tide has been wrong.

I've only had 36 goes on my SUP-foilboard in the surf and it has taken me nearly 2 years already to get up to 36 SUP-foil sessions in the surf. I'm using the 1150 AXIS wing. And loving it, I just stand there and she Glides forever with a little pump here and a little pump there; you can glide everywhere. YES I'm working on the pump back-out, slowly mastering it.

My Ocean equipment in order of Preference.

1. Shortboard = I have like 20+ surfboards, I love surfing at 59yo I've been surfing 50 years already.

2. 9ft High Performance Longboard = I have 4 x Longboards.

3. Unlimited 18ft SUP Downwind

4. 12ft Prone Paddleboard for Downwind

5. Prone foilboard in the surf = 180 days in nearly 4 years already have gone from a 6'3'' to a 5'10'' to a 5'5'' to a 5'0'' to a 4'10'' = what next.

6. SUP-foiling Downwind

7. SUP-foiling in the surf. I've gone down from a 6'2'' down to a 6'0'' now riding a 5'10" = what next.

Good luck SUP-foiling downwind if you are not prepared to pay your G#y dues in the surf........

Phil, I don't normally chime in & you're entitled to your opinion however saying an extremely offensive & inflammatory term to make a point is a step too far. Feel free to think what you will of me but I believe in speaking up when someone crosses the line. Stick to all things surf related & leave what you no doubt perceive to be a sarcastic racial slur out of it!

Yeah I'm pretty happy to read anything on the internet and could careless what people say but gezz I wish this fourm and a block button for a certain member so I didn't even have to scroll past his complete dribble. Such closed minds are what ruins the surfing world and this is just such a great example. Ha ha I don't like it so it must be so gay!! I feel so much dumber for reading this crap.

PeterP is a 100% right pay your dues and the reward is worth it for DW'ing, don't pay them before trying and you will pay them 10times harder in the middle of the ocean.

This thread was about thickness...and some point out weight was mentioned. So instead of creating a new thread I'll throw a question in here but it's related to weight. So for sup foiling I read in this thread, that the lightest board is better regardless thickness or construction etc. But in high wind, like in a downwinder or in wing foiling, does more weight could help to stabilise the board and not be affected by every gust? I'm tempted by a board but it is on the heavy side and I'm not convinced. Any thought on that? So not how thick is too thick but rather how heavy is too heavy! ;-)

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NordRoi said..
This thread was about thickness...and some point out weight was mentioned. So instead of creating a new thread I'll throw a question in here but it's related to weight. So for sup foiling I read in this thread, that the lightest board is better regardless thickness or construction etc. But in high wind, like in a downwinder or in wing foiling, does more weight could help to stabilise the board and not be affected by every gust? I'm tempted by a board but it is on the heavy side and I'm not convinced. Any thought on that? So not how thick is too thick but rather how heavy is too heavy! ;-)

In my experience anything North of 7kg is going to play with your mind when you are scratching to get the board back up on foil or trying to maintain flight. Be assured you will want it as light as practically possible.....board is only too light if it breaks.

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juandesooka said..
Interesting thread. I am in the midst of experimenting with thicker but shorter surf prone boards. First two are 4x19x4.25 and 4.4x19x4. These replace my trusty 5x20.5x2.75. Goal is to go shorter for less swing weight and better pumping, but still be paddleable by a middle aged mortal. I am 20 years past the "potato chip surfboard" experimentation. Volume is my friend.

The 4' is challenging, but the 4.4 was immediately comfortable, paddles easy, able to catch and foil waves immediately. I estimated i have lost 5-10% catchability in small surf, relative to buddies trying for the same waves. As for pumping, I got my first 3 for 1 in the first session. I am still not quite pump monkeying, but feels like just on the verge.

I have noticed no difference in feel in riding or turning, other than easier pumping. Though I am not really a "ripper", more permanent advanced intermediate. I would like to have a ripper try it side by side with another thinner "high performance" board to get a real comparison ... same foil, same waves, an objective comparison. I'll try to get that going sometime soon.

What would be the rough volume of your 4.4. I'm also looking for the same thing, because I'm in the same position. Volume is needed at my age and with my shoulder issues. I also don't want excessive volume as I want to sink start for winging. And to satisfy the need for thread verification (it seems this is an issue above) the thickness is the main contributing factor to volume given other variables the same.