I don't condone the language - it was obviously offensive but there may be some (invalid still) reason for the motive behind it.

When I sail my boat I am constantly looking at other boats around me. I can tell what they are going to do by how the boat is sailing and the possible courses they can take. It is what racers learn to do as kids - watch the fleet. You should be able to predict what racers are going to do as they have very basic rules they need to follow.

I do the same whether racing or cruising. If I see racers I can use my boat's body language to let them know I can see them and I know that we are in a potential crossing situation. I can head up or bear away early, so that they can see my course alteration and then they can respond. I rarely force my rights - why bother? It takes almost no effort to alter course slightly early.

I then check their response and can then come back slightly on course letting them know (with no hailing) to cross at a closer but safe distance. Always trying to give way to racing boats.

It does not always work. A couple of years ago I was crossing a beer can race - I was on a starboard on a square with only the genoa out and a boat was on port - we were going to cross closely. I looked for the guy to make a slight move so that I could alter course the alternative way. But they were gabbing on - in the large crew no-one was looking forward. They got closer and closer and still no look - in the end I yelled starboard and they looked up, had to alter course about 45 degrees and I got an earful. They were idiots who were caught out but it still rattled me. I wrote to Afloat mag but not to the club - probably should have written to the club itself.

When racing I always ask cruising boats nicely if they would mind altering course - once I asked someone rescuing a kayaker if they could just wait a bit - he was near the top mark and it was very close - he had a lifejacket on. Best one was when I was a kid - I asked a catamaran ferry to speed up please - we were in its stern wake and surfed all the way down the square run with our sails flapping. I am less competitive now but asking nicely worked when I raced 25 years ago.

Also - the other boats on the course are definitely part of the course. On Sydney Harbour the Manly ferries are a hugely important part of your race plan. Once a fellow competitor managed to make me concentrate on him (I had him in a close cover) by doing false tacks. So I started looking at him closer. Then he went for the tack and I rolled right into it, and almost smashed into a little dinghy he had steered me under. I couldn't tack and he went off fine. Clever trick and it was all my fault.

Yellers on boats are idiots. The only reason to yell is because you are inadequate and have made a fool of yourself and so you take it out on others. Fast racers don't yell - watch the last AC series. The only time someone yelled was when Iain Percy lost the plot when Artemis went stupid one race. All the rest of the time - cool as cucumbers.

I grew up in Port Stephens sailing at the PSYC. The club is extremely friendly and a quick phone call to the club on a Saturday afternoon to pass on your gripe would definitely go along way. Better srill go in for a beer one Saturday after 4 o'clock, tell your story and you might even find a crew for your next breezy sail!

Select to expand quote

Kankama said..

Yellers on boats are idiots. The only reason to yell is because you are inadequate and have made a fool of yourself and so you take it out on others. Fast racers don't yell - watch the last AC series. The only time someone yelled was when Iain Percy lost the plot when Artemis went stupid one race. All the rest of the time - cool as cucumbers.

No truer word was e'er said.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

nswsailor said..
Well on a starboard tack you had right of way as you said. The appropriate response should have been you yelling..

STARBOARD!!!!!!

Mate of mine used to sail a Stella in Sydney Harbour and always had great joy on a starboard tack when meeting a racing group on port tack.
He said they were usually sorely tested when they realised he wasn't going to give way.

I'm not defending what allegedly happened to Browns, but if it wasn't a big hassle for your Stella mate why didn't he bear away or otherwise allow the racers to pass? If he let them through, the cruiser normally loses nothing. If he insists on his "rights", the racer may lose out. Okay, it's no big deal if it's just a weekend race, and I don't yell at starboard tack cruisers, but why not be nice and make sure you don't stuff someone's day up?

Lots of cruisers reckon that the guys on big powerboats should consider the effect of their uncomfortable wakes and keep away from cruising yachts. Lots of cruisers expect other people at anchorages to be quiet at 1 am. If a cruiser expects other people to be considerate, shouldn't the cruiser be considerate too?

By the way, in my last years on Sydney Harbour about 95% of my own sailing was cruising and I can't recall having to call starboard on a racer. I did get lots of friendly waves and thanks when I bore away on starboard and let them pass.

Touchie Chris, I should have said that this did happen in the late 1970s so things may have change and as well I've never sailed in Sydney Harbour during race days.

Select to expand quote

nswsailor said..

Chris 249 said..

nswsailor said..
Well on a starboard tack you had right of way as you said. The appropriate response should have been you yelling..

STARBOARD!!!!!!

Mate of mine used to sail a Stella in Sydney Harbour and always had great joy on a starboard tack when meeting a racing group on port tack.
He said they were usually sorely tested when they realised he wasn't going to give way.

I'm not defending what allegedly happened to Browns, but if it wasn't a big hassle for your Stella mate why didn't he bear away or otherwise allow the racers to pass? If he let them through, the cruiser normally loses nothing. If he insists on his "rights", the racer may lose out. Okay, it's no big deal if it's just a weekend race, and I don't yell at starboard tack cruisers, but why not be nice and make sure you don't stuff someone's day up?

Lots of cruisers reckon that the guys on big powerboats should consider the effect of their uncomfortable wakes and keep away from cruising yachts. Lots of cruisers expect other people at anchorages to be quiet at 1 am. If a cruiser expects other people to be considerate, shouldn't the cruiser be considerate too?

By the way, in my last years on Sydney Harbour about 95% of my own sailing was cruising and I can't recall having to call starboard on a racer. I did get lots of friendly waves and thanks when I bore away on starboard and let them pass.

Touchie Chris, I should have said that this did happen in the late 1970s so things may have change and as well I've never sailed in Sydney Harbour during race days.

I use to try to give way to racers until I had them pushing me onto their competitors. It isn't being considerate giving way to 20 racers crossing your path around Cockatoo Island.

Select to expand quote

Jode5 said..

lydia said..
A few things here.
Firstly, Chris makes the good point that most of us just slow up a bit or tack away from a racing fleet while we are not necessarily obliged to do so.
But at the same time a lot of racers do live in a bubble on the water.

The point of my earlier post is that while a lot of racers live in the bubble and ignore the what is around them we will get more and more regulation as set out above.

I race a lot and if a few heroes had not been such dickheads we would not have the unworkable requirement that boats not sail within 20m of a fixed mark.

Or understand the Local Rule that all vessels over 300 ton are deemed restricted in their ability to manoeuvre any where south of Caloundra which is why we are now excluded from crossing the shipping lanes..

I suspect that in South East Queensland we are heading to a situation where there be no keelboat racing allowed except for a designated area off Sandgate which be quite a shock for a few clubs.

It is a two way street, responsibility people.

Lydia, never heard of not sailing within 20m of a fixed mark. Where is this found. If this is true it will have a big impact on both clubs that sail ot of Redcliffe.

G'day Jode,
Been in for a few weeks now.

The Gov has cracked after some numpty ran over M3?, and the damage bill was pretty expensive, something like $600K. So now we have a 20m wide radius around all nav marks.

I can attest to the difficulty in enforcing it in real life, its been a bit of a shambles at every mark since, some people are going around at 20m, some are going around with 2m, others look more like 50m!

No big deal except it makes a proverbial nightmare for protests about rights/responsibilities at the mark. Its hard enough threading a congested turning point with a dirty great mark in your way without handing out free passes of 20m of water.

The other day we were thrice overlapped within 3 boat lengths of the mark when you took into account this 'turning mark'. All three skippers were looking at each other, none of us really were sure what to do now the "mark"is a theoretical 40m wide. Am I considered overlapped when the boats get within 3 boat lengths of this new 40m wide virtual mark? Most people don't have the best judge of distance on the water, adding three boat lengths to a virtual 40m diameter gets a bit difficult when there's boats converging from all points of the compass.

Borderline unenforceable without a club boat refereeing at every mark. .

good of them to extend the zone by 20 m.

Absolutely, and I'm not usually the inside boat.

is that QLD local law ? or even more local like brisbane waters ?

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

Jode5 said..

lydia said..
A few things here.
Firstly, Chris makes the good point that most of us just slow up a bit or tack away from a racing fleet while we are not necessarily obliged to do so.
But at the same time a lot of racers do live in a bubble on the water.

The point of my earlier post is that while a lot of racers live in the bubble and ignore the what is around them we will get more and more regulation as set out above.

I race a lot and if a few heroes had not been such dickheads we would not have the unworkable requirement that boats not sail within 20m of a fixed mark.

Or understand the Local Rule that all vessels over 300 ton are deemed restricted in their ability to manoeuvre any where south of Caloundra which is why we are now excluded from crossing the shipping lanes..

I suspect that in South East Queensland we are heading to a situation where there be no keelboat racing allowed except for a designated area off Sandgate which be quite a shock for a few clubs.

It is a two way street, responsibility people.

Lydia, never heard of not sailing within 20m of a fixed mark. Where is this found. If this is true it will have a big impact on both clubs that sail ot of Redcliffe.

G'day Jode,
Been in for a few weeks now.

The Gov has cracked after some numpty ran over M3?, and the damage bill was pretty expensive, something like $600K. So now we have a 20m wide radius around all nav marks.

I can attest to the difficulty in enforcing it in real life, its been a bit of a shambles at every mark since, some people are going around at 20m, some are going around with 2m, others look more like 50m!

No big deal except it makes a proverbial nightmare for protests about rights/responsibilities at the mark. Its hard enough threading a congested turning point with a dirty great mark in your way without handing out free passes of 20m of water.

The other day we were thrice overlapped within 3 boat lengths of the mark when you took into account this 'turning mark'. All three skippers were looking at each other, none of us really were sure what to do now the "mark"is a theoretical 40m wide. Am I considered overlapped when the boats get within 3 boat lengths of this new 40m wide virtual mark? Most people don't have the best judge of distance on the water, adding three boat lengths to a virtual 40m diameter gets a bit difficult when there's boats converging from all points of the compass.

Borderline unenforceable without a club boat refereeing at every mark. .

Totally unbelievable, we have been racing round marks since the start of time. There is nothing in the general boating rules to say you cannot pass within 20m. So in protest a all yachts should have a gentleman's agreement and not protest and continue to race as normal. If MSQ's concerns are boats hitting beacons in a race, l am sure most boat carry insurance. It is pretty hard to do a hit and run and not be noticed when in a race. Haven't heard any thing from MSQ about this in the northern end of the bay as yet, so we will just have to wait and see.

Select to expand quote

SandS said..
is that QLD local law ? or even more local like brisbane waters ?

S&S, it is requirement of the Aquatic Permit to run the race.

Select to expand quote

Jode5 said..

shaggybaxter said..

Jode5 said..

Totally unbelievable, we have been racing round marks since the start of time. There is nothing in the general boating rules to say you cannot pass within 20m. So in protest a all yachts should have a gentleman's agreement and not protest and continue to race as normal. If MSQ's concerns are boats hitting beacons in a race, l am sure most boat carry insurance. It is pretty hard to do a hit and run and not be noticed when in a race. Haven't heard any thing from MSQ about this in the northern end of the bay as yet, so we will just have to wait and see.

I doubt there is anywhere you can race now without 3rd party property damage insurance.

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..

Jode5 said..

shaggybaxter said..

Jode5 said..

Totally unbelievable, we have been racing round marks since the start of time. There is nothing in the general boating rules to say you cannot pass within 20m. So in protest a all yachts should have a gentleman's agreement and not protest and continue to race as normal. If MSQ's concerns are boats hitting beacons in a race, l am sure most boat carry insurance. It is pretty hard to do a hit and run and not be noticed when in a race. Haven't heard any thing from MSQ about this in the northern end of the bay as yet, so we will just have to wait and see.

I doubt there is anywhere you can race now without 3rd party property damage insurance.

The requirement has usually been only third party public liability cover not third party property until recently.

Hmmm...made me check my current policy...$10 mil for legal liability, ie: third party property and person.
Even WAGS requires a minimum liability insurance of $10 mil.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

BROWNSMTRACE said..

Chris 249 said..

FreeRadical said..
With all due respect, we only have one side of a story here. Maybe save the lynching until the defence is given the right of reply.

Good point.

Without casting any doubt on Brown's tale, I've recently joined PSYC and they seem to be friendly and responsible. And no, I wasn't down there this weekend so it wasn't me yelling.

My bottom line on this is the racer knows what he did, and more importantly all his crew do as well so unless every single person on that yacht is prepared to lie and even then they all will have to carry the guy's actions
Nobody wants to have to give way in a race but you would have to live in a cocoon thinking you can go in straight lines with no interference .
it's the same on the road a good driver knows it is not going to be 110km for ever and what makes them a good driver is excepting what the road puts up to them and handling it in a respectful way , not jumping out at the lights and smashing a person's windscreen because they where travelling slower.
Thanks for all the comments guys , just another day on this planet...

Sure, as I specifically said, I wasn't doubting you. And yes, racers don't have extra rights. It sounds to me like you did the right thing by trying to keep out of their way. And while most of the PSYC fleet seem good, I can think of one of them who could have been the yeller.

Chris from memory this yacht had some sort of picture with red in it on the hull

I don't care what the rules are. I will give way to these guys.

Select to expand quote

cisco said..
I don't care what the rules are. I will give way to these guys.

Wow
What a video
I find some of the 18 footers on Sydney harbour get a bit close for comfort

Select to expand quote

cisco said..
I don't care what the rules are. I will give way to these guys.

Spent quite a few years sitting in the back of a 470
One of the quickest dinghies you find upwind in over 25 knots. (Other than a Sharpie)
Great example of why getting rid of drag in the rig is more important than sail area.

Select to expand quote

lydia said..

cisco said..
I don't care what the rules are. I will give way to these guys.

Spent quite a few years sitting in the back of a 470
One of the quickest dinghies you find upwind in over 25 knots. (Other than a Sharpie)
Great example of why getting rid of drag in the rig is more important than sail area.

When the 470 was made an Olympic class I had one of the first boats in Queensland and sailed out of RQYS. Binks Yachts and Dennis Yacht were the first Australian builders. George Manders bought in a Vanguard boat from the USA which was beautiful boat with a full Harken fit out. I crewed on that boat in Melbourne for the first Australian titles. My boat was a Dennis boat named 'Supreme' KA32.

Select to expand quote

lydia said..

SandS said..
is that QLD local law ? or even more local like brisbane waters ?

S&S, it is requirement of the Aquatic Permit to run the race.

wow, i didnt know about the aquatic permit , is that even a thing in vic ? i dont know . ........ who gets the fee for the permit the "aquatic" something i suppose ?