Dear wind vane DIYers, professionals, or physics teachers,

I've looked but couldn't find a photograph of a wind vane on a transom / rudder type which is exactly like mine. The Adams 31, as the pictures below show, has a reverse transom and a rudder which is flush with the transom and almost follows the angle of the transom.







In all the installation pictures I can find the unit is installed in a vertical position (when looking from the side). Is this necessary? This would mean a very elongated installation to avoid the servo blade hitting the rudder. I find long support arm installations like those on transom-hung rudders make wind vanes look overly large and ugly.

Or is it possible to follow the line of a reverse transom in order to avoid the need for those long tube arms and so that the servo blade doesn't contact the rudder? (diagram 1)


<div>Or, is it possible to install the main part of the unit normally (vertically) but have the servo blade offset to follow the line of the rudder? (diag. 2)

I would need to modify the actual vane (tilt it aft) so that it maintains it's 'angle of attack' to the wind but I'm not sure if installing it in this way would change the physics of the vane so that it doesn't function as designed. I also don't know what, if anything, tilting the rudder like this would do.


I'm interested in a vane but I'll be thinking twice if a massive sticky-out mounting makes my boat look like it has a sputnik on the back and have to pay more $ for slipping / marina berths.

I sent an email to Fleming but haven't heard back yet.

www.google.com.au/search?q=sailboat+self+steering+wind+vane&client=ubuntu&hs=d5X&channel=fs&biw=2560&bih=969&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5aWfVdCELYTsmAWfyYvAAw&ved=0CCkQsAQ#imgrc=kidwezZ-uiJvAM%3A


www.google.com.au/search?q=reveres+stern+wind+vane+mounting&client=ubuntu&hs=NAY&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=C6efVciQPIXXmAXzr6bAAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=2560&bih=969

try this one Dr

Same transom but there's no rudder to be seen there, HG. The post is dropping straight through where my rudder would be.

Good old moon bow sitting in Donks world






a sort of cocktail Dr Rog is in order

Ramona will be along shortly

A fair bit to read but for anyone considering self steering this a worthwhile download.

www.windpilot.com/n/pdf/bookeng.pdf

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Pekeri said..
A fair bit to read but for anyone considering self steering this a worthwhile download.

www.windpilot.com/n/pdf/bookeng.pdf

Your avatar
this one Id like to buy soon



My kids sole my La povoni

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Pekeri said..
A fair bit to read but for anyone considering self steering this a worthwhile download.

www.windpilot.com/n/pdf/bookeng.pdf

Thanks Pekeri.

States in there on page 71 "It should be borne in mind in respect of boats with a forward-raked transom that most servo-pendulum gears only function properly with the pendulum arm vertical; the system may have to overhang aft by some distance to ensure that the rudder shaft clears the bottom edge of the transom."

Also...
"Almost all servo-pendulum systems have vertical pendulum arms. The only exceptions are Windpilot Pacific and Sailomat, on which the pendulum rudder axis is angled aft by 10° and 25° respectively. The significance of this for forward sloping transoms (by far the most common design) is that even with the system mounted close against the transom, the pendulum rudder shaft will still clear the bottom or aft edge. Mounting the system right up against the transom also means that when the pendulum rudder is pivoted up out of the water it no longer sticks out beyond the aft edge of the transom. This is a considerable advantage for manoeuvring in tight harbours or landing stern first in the Mediterranean, as no part of the gear sticks out beyond the outline of the boat."

Not on topic but love it.

Must share a coffee one day

This would work better.


Pity, because these are made in the US Sweden.

Have a look at Ramonas boat in the thread sailing at Anchor Dr Rog has a photo of his boat stern

The simplest way is to invest in one of the Sailomat 700 series. These use the oar sloping back to help with feedback. They use a modified Z crank design to rotate the oar versus bevel gears in most vanes though I have seen them with bevel gears I think. Bevel gears give automatic feedback. The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade. The angle on the bevel gears would not be ideal but by careful selection they could be made to work. The oar blade may need to be a few inches longer though.

This is a photo of my first vane I built for my last yacht. Its a modified Walt Murray design. I made the oar slope to clear the rudder blade. It's fitted here on Ramona while I built the new one. Note the Z crank sliding through a plastic block. Quick and easy to build, plastic bearings.
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This is the new one with bevel gears. Delrin bearings on the oar and ball bearings on the vane.
[URL=.html] [/URL]
Short video of the new one. The other one is there too. Youtube has heaps of good stuff on windvanes.

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HG02 said..

Pekeri said..
A fair bit to read but for anyone considering self steering this a worthwhile download.

www.windpilot.com/n/pdf/bookeng.pdf

Your avatar
this one Id like to buy soon



My kids sole my La povoni

We had a zassenhaus manual grinder and a manual lever expresso machine on our trip back from USA. Also plenty of varieties of bean from South America.

How do you like my new avatar. Just for you know who.

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Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

Thanks Ramona. Whoever that Seabreezer was I asked him to do a How To video before he left but I suppose he chose living over recording. :)

I think I'll do some reading over winter and decide if I think I can do such a project.

The guy is Phil and you can post to him on the Top Hat site. BTW a solution could be the auxilliary rudder type that is offset on the transom. It will still need to clear the transom itself, but if far enough away from the rudder, could be vertical.

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DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

Thanks Ramona. Whoever that Seabreezer was I asked him to do a How To video before he left but I suppose he chose living over recording. :)

I think I'll do some reading over winter and decide if I think I can do such a project.

DrRog if you decide to go ahead with the fabrication of self steering apparatus I may be able to assist with the rudder component. I have a Scanmar SOS rudder and have replaced the fabricated ss blade with a carbon fibre assembly. The blade is the same as the Scanmar self steering blade. Not cheap but a very high quality product.

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frant said..

DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

Thanks Ramona. Whoever that Seabreezer was I asked him to do a How To video before he left but I suppose he chose living over recording. :)

I think I'll do some reading over winter and decide if I think I can do such a project.

DrRog if you decide to go ahead with the fabrication of self steering apparatus I may be able to assist with the rudder component. I have a Scanmar SOS rudder and have replaced the fabricated ss blade with a carbon fibre assembly. The blade is the same as the Scanmar self steering blade. Not cheap but a very high quality product.

Your very positive tonight Frant

You can see mine in this photo if you strain.

Yes, with a Fleming it needs to be vertical.

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HG02 said..

frant said..

DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

Thanks Ramona. Whoever that Seabreezer was I asked him to do a How To video before he left but I suppose he chose living over recording. :)

I think I'll do some reading over winter and decide if I think I can do such a project.

DrRog if you decide to go ahead with the fabrication of self steering apparatus I may be able to assist with the rudder component. I have a Scanmar SOS rudder and have replaced the fabricated ss blade with a carbon fibre assembly. The blade is the same as the Scanmar self steering blade. Not cheap but a very high quality product.

Your very positive tonight Frant

That's purely psychological on your part Sir. It's the new avatar of mine. I believe that there are some, including yourself , who were unable to relate to a person who might have been sharing a wealth of experience garnered from a lifetime of adventure as depicted in my previous "500 miles East of Eden " avatar. Now that I have changed my avatar to a surly "red thumb" the pessimists can identify with me and are vindicated in their red thumb of my every post.

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DrRog said..

Ramona said..
The other choice is build a Hebridean, one of our fellow listers is off sailing with one now. avoid.rocks/blog/the-hebridean-wind-vane-self-steering-gear/ That not him though.

If it was me I would build a unit similar to mine with the oar sloped back to match your rudder blade.

Thanks Ramona. Whoever that Seabreezer was I asked him to do a How To video before he left but I suppose he chose living over recording. :)

I think I'll do some reading over winter and decide if I think I can do such a project.

Next time you go for a sail take your tenders oar or paddle with you. Once you are doing 2 or 3 knots through the water poke the oar down into the water about half a metre just behind your rudder blade with the blade feathered in the flow. Then rotate the blade a few degrees either way and notice how much power is generated to drive the oar handle sideways. All you have to do is decide what method to use to rotate the oar blade. The easiest is the Z crank [cheapest] or bevel gears. But there are other ways too such as flexible drives. I'm sure the blade angled back that far wont be a problem, it may self centre a bit but the prebalance will counter act that.
I would suggest looking at Walt Murray designs first and experimenting. His early design I think it was called the 20;20 or something was able to be built for $20 using plastic plumbing bits and SS rod, left over dinghy sailing bits. They can be built out of what ever you are comfortable working with. Plastic or copper pipe, wood or stainless steel or aluminium. I have seen them made out of pushbike frames. Now that there are a few aluminium bikes turning up at recycling shops that's a good alternative.
Some info and links on this forum. I'm Fishermantwo there. www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?276337-Wind-Vane-drawings

The photo is of a Windhelm M. Notice how the oar slopes back and would be similar to your rudder blade. It uses bevel gears but the gears are able to cope with not being at 90 degrees.
[URL=.html] [/URL]

Actually looking at other photos of the Windhelm M the bevel gears are at 90 degrees. The shaft the whole unit rotates on slopes up! The push rod has a small plastic block with a pivot to transmit the correct angle to the small bevel gear. Very clever idea I had not noticed till now.

"DrRog if you decide to go ahead with the fabrication of self steering apparatus I may be able to assist with the rudder component." Cheers, f rant.
"Yes, with a Fleming it needs to be vertical." Cheers MB. Yes, all vertical systems are out.

"Some info and links on this forum. I'm Fishermantwo there." - yep, I already spotted that, Ramona.

"I would suggest looking at Walt Murray designs first and experimenting." I think that's what I'll do, Ramona - I think I'll start cheap and work up. I can't afford to buy a new one; it's second hand or self-build. By the way, there's 2 days left on a Fleming on Ebay starting at $1K with a $1.5K buy it now. (which is what started me on this line of thinking). I have to complete the projects I'm working on first (DIY stack pack sewn (just have to install now), build and cover a new dodger / spray hood, then some vinyl flooring).

I have a question for you, Ramona. I got this design idea in my head and I can't get it out. The Cape Horn system can be run through the transom and directly to the steering quadrant which shortens run lengths and potential play and eliminates lines in the cockpit. Do you think it's possible to take the lines from a more conventional servo-pen system and, instead of running them up to the CC wheel which then runs cables back to the quadrant, run them through the upper transom or aft deck directly to the quadrant? I mean, I think this would be possible, I just don't know how you'd stop all water ingress. Not that a bit of water would be a drama since the quadrant is contained within a space, the bottom of which is watertight and would hold many litres and could be run off somewhere else. Surely someone has thought of this before and rejected it. Is it simply the water ingress reason?

DrRog,
Have a look at the Hydrovane. It uses its own independent rudder to steer the boat, It can be mounted off center and It has no lines to the cockpit. Really nice bit of gear.

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Jolene said..
DrRog,
Have a look at the Hydrovane. It uses its own independent rudder to steer the boat, It can be mounted off center and It has no lines to the cockpit. Really nice bit of gear.

that is a great unit !!!!

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DrRog said..

I have a question for you, Ramona. I got this design idea in my head and I can't get it out. The Cape Horn system can be run through the transom and directly to the steering quadrant which shortens run lengths and potential play and eliminates lines in the cockpit. Do you think it's possible to take the lines from a more conventional servo-pen system and, instead of running them up to the CC wheel which then runs cables back to the quadrant, run them through the upper transom or aft deck directly to the quadrant? I mean, I think this would be possible, I just don't know how you'd stop all water ingress. Not that a bit of water would be a drama since the quadrant is contained within a space, the bottom of which is watertight and would hold many litres and could be run off somewhere else. Surely someone has thought of this before and rejected it. Is it simply the water ingress reason?

That Fleming on eBay is actually a good buy. Same as Morningbirds and same as what Jessica Watson used. I have stolen ideas from it and incorporated them in mine!
I have actually looked at a Cape Horn vane system when a cruiser stopped over here. Though looking at photos of it I took at the time it might be his version of the Cape Horn. It was a steel yacht and the tube that the oar pivots on was just a tube welded direct on the stern, The "Tiller" is just inside the boat on the other end of the tube. How he attaches to the quadrant I do not remember. He explained it all to me at the time and he was happy with it.
Mate has an older Fleming he bought off eBay for $500 driving his 39 foot ferro yacht with wheel steering. He raves about it. It lacks the remote adjustment and it has to be set up at the stern. I would always prefer the control lines to a tiller, easier to adjust the weather helm from my seating position.

The Hydrovane is out of reach for most people, prices start at about $7000. It's enormous with a fixed rudder that has to be removed for berthing in marinas. Lacks power in light winds and has to be adjusted at the unit. Plenty of info online though owners are never on windvane forums! I think there is an Australian agent now.

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Ramona said..




The photo is of a Windhelm M. Notice how the oar slopes back and would be similar to your rudder blade. It uses bevel gears but the gears are able to cope with not being at 90 degrees.

That is not really correct with bevel gears. Bevel gear teeth are machined to suit whatever angle between the shaft axis' are required. Normally there is very little tolerance for the shaft axis' to be off the predetermined angle. Trying to make them work off that angle will prematurely wear the teeth out and they will be rumbly in operation.

Yes, I understand they are not in constant operation or continuous rotation but they are in just about the harshest environment possible.

If the angle between the shafts is not too great (say less than 20 degrees off straight), a universal joint should do the job. Getting a universal joint made from stainless would be the hard/expensive part.

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Ramona said..

DrRog said..

I have a question for you, Ramona. I got this design idea in my head and I can't get it out. The Cape Horn system can be run through the transom and directly to the steering quadrant which shortens run lengths and potential play and eliminates lines in the cockpit. Do you think it's possible to take the lines from a more conventional servo-pen system and, instead of running them up to the CC wheel which then runs cables back to the quadrant, run them through the upper transom or aft deck directly to the quadrant? I mean, I think this would be possible, I just don't know how you'd stop all water ingress. Not that a bit of water would be a drama since the quadrant is contained within a space, the bottom of which is watertight and would hold many litres and could be run off somewhere else. Surely someone has thought of this before and rejected it. Is it simply the water ingress reason?

That Fleming on eBay is actually a good buy. Same as Morningbirds and same as what Jessica Watson used. I have stolen ideas from it and incorporated them in mine!
I have actually looked at a Cape Horn vane system when a cruiser stopped over here. Though looking at photos of it I took at the time it might be his version of the Cape Horn. It was a steel yacht and the tube that the oar pivots on was just a tube welded direct on the stern, The "Tiller" is just inside the boat on the other end of the tube. How he attaches to the quadrant I do not remember. He explained it all to me at the time and he was happy with it.
Mate has an older Fleming he bought off eBay for $500 driving his 39 foot ferro yacht with wheel steering. He raves about it. It lacks the remote adjustment and it has to be set up at the stern. I would always prefer the control lines to a tiller, easier to adjust the weather helm from my seating position.

The Hydrovane is out of reach for most people, prices start at about $7000. It's enormous with a fixed rudder that has to be removed for berthing in marinas. Lacks power in light winds and has to be adjusted at the unit. Plenty of info online though owners are never on windvane forums! I think there is an Australian agent now.

The Fleming on eBay is an outstanding buy. I paid $2000 for my 401 series about 7 years ago, although it came off a tiller steered S&S34 so it cost me nothing to fit it.

MB's Fleming has a knob that rotates to adjust the position of the vane. I have a long loop of rope I use to rotate it.

There is a length of chain to join the control lines together at the tiller. A link of the chain is slipped on the tiller attachment and, if I have weather or lee helm, I move the chain a link or three until she is balanced. Easy and intuitive to use.

The most difficult evolution with mine is changing the vane. In big seas and wind hanging over the stern to fit a new vane is decidedly unpleasant.

The 501 is lighter and should be more sensitive in light airs.

YEs,it's great value - that's why I needed to quickly come to terms with whether or not it would suit my boat. Great pieces of kit.

If you go down the path of building one DrRog, be sure to check out the Navik for a few Ideas . The Navik as no gears only linkages that control an aileron on the servo oar. It also has a quadrant that actuates the lines to the tiller so you get proportional movement and velocity from the servo oar to the tiller and a breakout protection that allows the whole servo oar to lift over an obstacle in the water, again another really nice piece of engineering.

I fitted a Navic to my Clansman and tried it out last week. It worked like a treat - I love it!

It cost $700 second hand and doesn't complain, block the toilet, need a nap, or eat all my chocolate biscuits.

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Yara said..
The guy is Phil and you can post to him on the Top Hat site. BTW a solution could be the auxilliary rudder type that is offset on the transom. It will still need to clear the transom itself, but if far enough away from the rudder, could be vertical.

Yep thats me, I actually have the windvane in a locker as I still need to refine it a bit and work out the adjustments.
Was too busy trying to sail up to the Whitsundays etc and I need access to a workshop to do some small modificatons.
I'll be home by November so should have it sorted by Xmas.
Oh, yes, cost to date $300!