Well sea breezes I have one last question to annoy you's all with. What mark of top hat should I buy for my trip? Here's my pros and cons for all marks ( I have been doing reasearch for years about this but it may be incorrect)

Mark 1: Pros: Solid reputation, hand laid fibreglass (apparently vinelester but have only heard of one person saying this) , Two circumnavigated the world CONS: 15-16 years older then the last top hats about 45-50 years old, less common, usually poorer condition

Mark 2s: pros: Newer than mark ones, Supposed to be still made tougher than mark 3s
Cons: Chopper gunned ( although unless done incorrectly than it doesn't make much difference in strength). Older than mark 3s, not that common

MARK 3s Pros; Common, have a large following, got told they had the most ballast not sure if that's true though, videos online use them so I can see their set up, newest top hat and last.
Cons: have been told they are not as strongly built as the Mark 1,2s

I think i may have confused myself I bit but I will see.

While i still can, what reefing system and storm tactics. Do you Top Hatters use? I would love to know what sails are in your sail wardrobe? Thank you all with your patience with me.
Kind regards,
Mick

Shaun and Phil should pipe in soon but they have just done overnighter to Gold coast arriving today. Phil in his mark 1 and Shaun in his Mark 3

Interior layouts are different. Mark 2 has a quarter berth aft. I like the interior layout. The cabin is also sunk lower, as in the floor is lower and I think the decks are slightly wider but this makes the interior slightly narrower. The V berth is smaller than mine.
Most the TH's have a factory fit out but mine doesnt. I like mine. Seems ot have more rooms. Has loads of storage space but not all the cupboards etc. Just has shelves . Gives me more room.
Storm tactics ive used is heaving to, for sail changes(you can drop either sail and she'll heave to just fine with only one)
I have no furler but i hank 2 sails on the forestay. A#1/2 (reefable) and a #3. I have two halyards back to cockpit.
Now i know how well she goes with just the main, i tend to douse the jib and carry on with the main only. Means i dont have to go forward at all. Of course with a furler you dont have to carry all these sails or go forward
I carry a storm jib a number 3 and a reefable 1/2. i have tonnes of storage and 2 of the sails live on deck, on the forestay.
I Also have the downhaul which works a treat and the main with one reef and curling the boom using topping lift worked a treat in 40 knots. still had too much sail up but it works fine.
My reefing system isnt the best. I have a horn up forward and no reefing lines. I have a fear of too many sheets :) too messy.
So i head to wind, release main halyard, hook the horn at mast, come back aft and secure the clew.
It works fine and is quick. I try to be organised with reefing, doing early, or often the night before i set off if coastal cruising.

i prefer the mark 1's because i think they look better, and we know of a few that have been around the globe. One" Caprice " right near my mooring.
To be honest when i bought mine she was to be just a bigger boat than my last one to gain more experience.
Then i realised what shes capable of and stopped looking for anything else.

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Sectorsteve said..
Shaun and Phil should pipe in soon but they have just done overnighter to Gold coast arriving today. Phil in his mark 1 and Shaun in his Mark 3

Interior layouts are different. Mark 2 has a quarter berth aft. I like the interior layout. The cabin is also sunk lower, as in the floor is lower and I think the decks are slightly wider but this makes the interior slightly narrower. The V berth is smaller than mine.
Most the TH's have a factory fit out but mine doesnt. I like mine. Seems ot have more rooms. Has loads of storage space but not all the cupboards etc. Just has shelves . Gives me more room.
Storm tactics ive used is heaving to, for sail changes(you can drop either sail and she'll heave to just fine with only one)
I have no furler but i hank 2 sails on the forestay. A#1/2 (reefable) and a #3. I have two halyards back to cockpit.
Now i know how well she goes with just the main, i tend to douse the jib and carry on with the main only. Means i dont have to go forward at all. Of course with a furler you dont have to carry all these sails or go forward
I carry a storm jib a number 3 and a reefable 1/2. i have tonnes of storage and 2 of the sails live on deck, on the forestay.
I Also have the downhaul which works a treat and the main with one reef and curling the boom using topping lift worked a treat in 40 knots. still had too much sail up but it works fine.
My reefing system isnt the best. I have a horn up forward and no reefing lines. I have a fear of too many sheets :) too messy.
So i head to wind, release main halyard, hook the horn at mast, come back aft and secure the clew.
It works fine and is quick. I try to be organised with reefing, doing early, or often the night before i set off if coastal cruising.

i prefer the mark 1's because i think they look better, and we know of a few that have been around the globe. One" Caprice " right near my mooring.
To be honest when i bought mine she was to be just a bigger boat than my last one to gain more experience.
Then i realised what shes capable of and stopped looking for anything else.

Your boats a mark 1 isn't it? I presume you know Shaun and Phil personally if so do you think the mark 1s are any better built? Also what do you think of Shaun's junk rig. It would be nice to get some advice from Phil as I have read his trip on seaka up the coast when I was 12.
Ps at the moment I will try and fund the trip myself. Maybe try a little bit of sponsorship I am just finding boats to jump on for a ride. I helped sail a spacesailer 24 with an old guy with ptsd who didn't like sailing solo. Can't thank you enough steve

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Shanty1 said..

Sectorsteve said..
Shaun and Phil should pipe in soon but they have just done overnighter to Gold coast arriving today. Phil in his mark 1 and Shaun in his Mark 3

Interior layouts are different. Mark 2 has a quarter berth aft. I like the interior layout. The cabin is also sunk lower, as in the floor is lower and I think the decks are slightly wider but this makes the interior slightly narrower. The V berth is smaller than mine.
Most the TH's have a factory fit out but mine doesnt. I like mine. Seems ot have more rooms. Has loads of storage space but not all the cupboards etc. Just has shelves . Gives me more room.
Storm tactics ive used is heaving to, for sail changes(you can drop either sail and she'll heave to just fine with only one)
I have no furler but i hank 2 sails on the forestay. A#1/2 (reefable) and a #3. I have two halyards back to cockpit.
Now i know how well she goes with just the main, i tend to douse the jib and carry on with the main only. Means i dont have to go forward at all. Of course with a furler you dont have to carry all these sails or go forward
I carry a storm jib a number 3 and a reefable 1/2. i have tonnes of storage and 2 of the sails live on deck, on the forestay.
I Also have the downhaul which works a treat and the main with one reef and curling the boom using topping lift worked a treat in 40 knots. still had too much sail up but it works fine.
My reefing system isnt the best. I have a horn up forward and no reefing lines. I have a fear of too many sheets :) too messy.
So i head to wind, release main halyard, hook the horn at mast, come back aft and secure the clew.
It works fine and is quick. I try to be organised with reefing, doing early, or often the night before i set off if coastal cruising.

i prefer the mark 1's because i think they look better, and we know of a few that have been around the globe. One" Caprice " right near my mooring.
To be honest when i bought mine she was to be just a bigger boat than my last one to gain more experience.
Then i realised what shes capable of and stopped looking for anything else.

Your boats a mark 1 isn't it? I presume you know Shaun and Phil personally if so do you think the mark 1s are any better built? Also what do you think of Shaun's junk rig. It would be nice to get some advice from Phil as I have read his trip on seaka up the coast when I was 12.
Ps at the moment I will try and fund the trip myself. Maybe try a little bit of sponsorship I am just finding boats to jump on for a ride. I helped sail a spacesailer 24 with an old guy with ptsd who didn't like sailing solo. Can't thank you enough steve

Yes i do know them personally.And mine is a Mark 1.
I love the idea of Shauns Rig, though ive never had experience with one. He loves it and thats what counts. Phils Tophat is the most immaculate TH in Australia, probably the world. Its like its brand new.
My TH is dry as a bone inside always. Never any mildew or anything.
Theyre all well made i think. Ive only really got experience with my own.

If and when you hear of Mk 2s & 3s breaking up, you can consider them flawed, until then, relax about the strength issue. Many TH owners consider a Diesel engine essential, but with a limited budget this may not be an option for you. Mk1s have a heavier transom because the outboard bracket was the transom. Latter Mks have a lighter transom because the OBM was moved forward into a well in the cockpit - I don't like the way fumes sometime collect with this setup. After Mk 1, the cockpit floor was raised to reduce water entering up the cockpit drains, however this will still happen at times if the boat is heavily laden with years of junk or circumnavigation supplies:)
The keyhole cabin entry of the Mk1 reduces water entry to the cabin if pooped, and the winch frame lets water flow through the support rather than splashing into the cockpit when you're laid over a bit.
I looked at 8 THs before stepping into one, a Mk3, and realising that this was the one that felt right. Many of the Mk1s felt old and much of their equipment - gauges, rigging, deck fittings and electrics was past its due by date.
Top Hats are great boats, but don't overthink your decisions before you look at what's available. The Mks all vary a bit but there's no good or bad versions.

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Bushdog said..
If and when you hear of Mk 2s & 3s breaking up, you can consider them flawed, until then, relax about the strength issue. Many TH owners consider a Diesel engine essential, but with a limited budget this may not be an option for you. Mk1s have a heavier transom because the outboard bracket was the transom. Latter Mks have a lighter transom because the OBM was moved forward into a well in the cockpit - I don't like the way fumes sometime collect with this setup. After Mk 1, the cockpit floor was raised to reduce water entering up the cockpit drains, however this will still happen at times if the boat is heavily laden with years of junk or circumnavigation supplies:)
The keyhole cabin entry of the Mk1 reduces water entry to the cabin if pooped, and the winch frame lets water flow through the support rather than splashing into the cockpit when you're laid over a bit.
I looked at 8 THs before stepping into one, a Mk3, and realising that this was the one that felt right. Many of the Mk1s felt old and much of their equipment - gauges, rigging, deck fittings and electrics was past its due by date.
Top Hats are great boats, but don't overthink your decisions before you look at what's available. The Mks all vary a bit but there's no good or bad versions.

Thank you for your comments. Do you think a mark 3 could take on a trip like mine? I have heard that the mk3s might feel a bit flimsy. Mate what do you think handling wise of your boat? If you have been in rough weather how did the boat go?
Ps am currently looking at boats to buy

I sail a Mk 2, with a Yanmar diesel. I have not closely inspected a Mk 3 with an outboard in the cockpit well, but I would find it impossible to live with - so go for an inboard diesel.

As for reefing, I am a big fan of the roller-furling genoa, and a removable solent stay for hanked #3. I use separate sheets for the #3, through double blocks on wyndslice cars with tackle. Mainsail has lazy-jacks, topping lift and two reefs, each with tack & clue reefing lines. Everything can be done from the cockpit except hoisting #3.

A solidly rigged TopHat is a tough little boat, but moves around a lot in a sea, so safety is paramount if sailing alone. See my recent posts on thread 'Wear your PFD'.

I use an Autohelm 2000, but a 1000 is quite adequate. Steers well for wind on or forward of beam, but struggles with a big quartering sea.

I could go on & on but won't! Great little boat!

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saintpeter said..
I sail a Mk 2, with a Yanmar diesel. I have not closely inspected a Mk 3 with an outboard in the cockpit well, but I would find it impossible to live with - so go for an inboard diesel.

As for reefing, I am a big fan of the roller-furling genoa, and a removable solent stay for hanked #3. I use separate sheets for the #3, through double blocks on wyndslice cars with tackle. Mainsail has lazy-jacks, topping lift and two reefs, each with tack & clue reefing lines. Everything can be done from the cockpit except hoisting #3.

A solidly rigged TopHat is a tough little boat, but moves around a lot in a sea, so safety is paramount if sailing alone. See my recent posts on thread 'Wear your PFD'.

I use an Autohelm 2000, but a 1000 is quite adequate. Steers well for wind on or forward of beam, but struggles with a big quartering sea.

I could go on & on but won't! Great little boat!

Thank you for your reply, yes I most definitely would be wearing a PDF and clipped on the lifelines at all times on deck. I think I would also invest in windvane self steering similar to the one Rob Lovelace used. Cuts down on power and the amount of fuel I would need to bring thus lightening the boat.

G'day Mick, Geoff Baker who built most of the Mk1's has a good reputation, that good reputation adds weight to the Mk1's being a strong boat, not that the other marks aren't strong. I don't think it'll matter for what you want to do.
i have owned a Mk1 and two mk3's, and sailed many others, I can't pick any Mks being better than any others. You'd have to judge any boat purchase on its merits boat by boat. I prefer the mk3 interiors with more fibreglass, headliners, furniture etc as it's easier to maintain .
I also don't think it'll matter whether it's inboard or outboard, as you won't be able to carry enough fuel to make any meaningful difference, maybe 50lts for safety, not convenience. In fact you'll need the extra stowage area where an inboard would go, and an outboard would mean a weight saving. But in a survival situation I'd rather have an inboard.
Having only done coastal I haven't been caught out in any real storms, just caught out with heavier winds than expected of high thirties, just reef and keep going (downwind) the boats handle it.

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BlueMoon said..
G'day Mick, Geoff Baker who built most of the Mk1's has a good reputation, that good reputation adds weight to the Mk1's being a strong boat, not that the other marks aren't strong. I don't think it'll matter for what you want to do.
i have owned a Mk1 and two mk3's, and sailed many others, I can't pick any Mks being better than any others. You'd have to judge any boat purchase on its merits boat by boat. I prefer the mk3 interiors with more fibreglass, headliners, furniture etc as it's easier to maintain .
I also don't think it'll matter whether it's inboard or outboard, as you won't be able to carry enough fuel to make any meaningful difference, maybe 50lts for safety, not convenience. In fact you'll need the extra stowage area where an inboard would go, and an outboard would mean a weight saving. But in a survival situation I'd rather have an inboard.
Having only done coastal I haven't been caught out in any real storms, just caught out with heavier winds than expected of high thirties, just reef and keep going (downwind) the boats handle it.

Thank you for your reply that's just the information I need. I have been reading these forums for a while now and remember reading that you have a junk rig on your top hat. I am interested in it, do you like it?

It's a modified junk rig, it's fast, easy to handle, quick and easy to reef, low maintenance, yes I like it

Shanty, how tall you are could be a factor, I believe the Mk 1's have lower headroom than the other Mk's. I was
told this so I don't really know. But if you can't stand upright it does get a bit wearing.

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samsturdy said..
Shanty, how tall you are could be a factor, I believe the Mk 1's have lower headroom than the other Mk's. I was
told this so I don't really know. But if you can't stand upright it does get a bit wearing.

Hey Sam, I am about 5.10ft I do know the other marks have 6.1ft. I have thought about this but I think I would just have to live with it. 3 inches is still enough I suppose.
Thanks

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Sectorsteve said..
Shaun and Phil should pipe in soon but they have just done overnighter to Gold coast arriving today. Phil in his mark 1 and Shaun in his Mark 3

Interior layouts are different. Mark 2 has a quarter berth aft. I like the interior layout. The cabin is also sunk lower, as in the floor is lower and I think the decks are slightly wider but this makes the interior slightly narrower. The V berth is smaller than mine.
Most the TH's have a factory fit out but mine doesnt. I like mine. Seems ot have more rooms. Has loads of storage space but not all the cupboards etc. Just has shelves . Gives me more room.
Storm tactics ive used is heaving to, for sail changes(you can drop either sail and she'll heave to just fine with only one)
I have no furler but i hank 2 sails on the forestay. A#1/2 (reefable) and a #3. I have two halyards back to cockpit.
Now i know how well she goes with just the main, i tend to douse the jib and carry on with the main only. Means i dont have to go forward at all. Of course with a furler you dont have to carry all these sails or go forward
I carry a storm jib a number 3 and a reefable 1/2. i have tonnes of storage and 2 of the sails live on deck, on the forestay.
I Also have the downhaul which works a treat and the main with one reef and curling the boom using topping lift worked a treat in 40 knots. still had too much sail up but it works fine.
My reefing system isnt the best. I have a horn up forward and no reefing lines. I have a fear of too many sheets :) too messy.
So i head to wind, release main halyard, hook the horn at mast, come back aft and secure the clew.
It works fine and is quick. I try to be organised with reefing, doing early, or often the night before i set off if coastal cruising.

i prefer the mark 1's because i think they look better, and we know of a few that have been around the globe. One" Caprice " right near my mooring.
To be honest when i bought mine she was to be just a bigger boat than my last one to gain more experience.
Then i realised what shes capable of and stopped looking for anything else.

I should definitely buy the book "two in a top hat" shouldn't I? Just for the record what's the toughest conditions the Mitchell's experienced in Caprice? Would be interesting to know. Btw are you going to take a storm Jib or try sail with you I your Trip? Also how many days do you expect to be going non-stop? How much weight do you think you will add?
Ig you don't want to answer just Pm me to stop asking questions. Usually I need someone to do that to shut me up.

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BlueMoon said..
It's a modified junk rig, it's fast, easy to handle, quick and easy to reef, low maintenance, yes I like it

That's what matters with boats isn't it. That you like it.

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Hsaintpeter said..
I sail a Mk 2, with a Yanmar diesel. I have not closely inspected a Mk 3 with an outboard in the cockpit well, but I would find it impossible to live with - so go for an inboard diesel.

As for reefing, I am a big fan of the roller-furling genoa, and a removable solent stay for hanked #3. I use separate sheets for the #3, through double blocks on wyndslice cars with tackle. Mainsail has lazy-jacks, topping lift and two reefs, each with tack & clue reefing lines. Everything can be done from the cockpit except hoisting #3.

A solidly rigged TopHat is a tough little boat, but moves around a lot in a sea, so safety is paramount if sailing alone. See my recent posts on thread 'Wear your PFD'.

I use an Autohelm 2000, but a 1000 is quite adequate. Steers well for wind on or forward of beam, but struggles with a big quartering sea.

I could go on & on but won't! Great little boat!

Hey mate, the more information the better. Pm me if you like i would love to hear it.

Pretty sure Alan and Cindy Nebauer sailed a Top Hat to Canada years ago. They now have the Seawind "Las Brisas" down your way Ramona.

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troubadour said..
Pretty sure Alan and Cindy Nebauer sailed a Top Hat to Canada years ago. They now have the Seawind "Las Brisas" down your way Ramona.

How did they go?

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troubadour said..

Ramona said..
"Ariel" is back on the market again! One of the original cold moulded versions looking for a bit of love.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Top-Hat-25ft-Mk-0-Classic-Sailing-Yacht-inboard-Newcastle-NSW-No-Reserve/392305772714?hash=item5b573f08aa:g:8E8AAOSwNBFc8OEo

If this is the original timber Top Hat used as the plug for the glass boats I worked on her on the SASC slipway in the early eighties.

Troubadour - was the one you worked on at SASC moored in Wright's Bay at the time??

I don't know. It was already on the SASC slip. Nice old guy owner her but can't remember his name.

some might remember rob.lovelace, he took his TH around Aus.?
have no personal expirience sailing TH, but in fact comes down to
price , conditions and build in engine. there is nothing worse than
if you trouble, drop sails, start the engine and cavitates ,

Troubadour, if it's the one I'm thinking of it was owned by a bloke by the name of Keith (i think), don't know if that was his first name or last name. Lived in Drummoyne and worked for Polaroid. I understood fom him that his was the boat that was used as the plug. It was extremely well looked after and loved by the owner. Yes, he was a nice bloke.

Yes Keith does sound familiar.

Gee I just looked at my grammar in the previous post. Hope I don't get into trouble

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samsturdy said..
Shanty, how tall you are could be a factor, I believe the Mk 1's have lower headroom than the other Mk's. I was
told this so I don't really know. But if you can't stand upright it does get a bit wearing.

6 foot headroom in the mark 1

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Shanty1 said..

Ramona said..
"Ariel" is back on the market again! One of the original cold moulded versions looking for a bit of love.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Top-Hat-25ft-Mk-0-Classic-Sailing-Yacht-inboard-Newcastle-NSW-No-Reserve/392305772714?hash=item5b573f08aa:g:8E8AAOSwNBFc8OEo

Not to be disrespectful but I think this is old girl would be more suited to Sydney harbour. After a bit of love that is.

I would prefer one of the early cold moulded Top Hats over any of the 'glass versions. Stronger and a better ballast ratio. Quieter and better insulated.

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Ramona said..

I would prefer one of the early cold moulded Top Hats over any of the 'glass versions. Stronger and a better ballast ratio. Quieter and better insulated.

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AzureF305 said..
Troubadour, if it's the one I'm thinking of it was owned by a bloke by the name of Keith (i think), don't know if that was his first name or last name. Lived in Drummoyne and worked for Polaroid. I understood fom him that his was the boat that was used as the plug. It was extremely well looked after and loved by the owner. Yes, he was a nice bloke.

I remember being aboard this one when i was younger. The build quality was amazing

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Ramona said..

Shanty1 said..

Ramona said..
"Ariel" is back on the market again! One of the original cold moulded versions looking for a bit of love.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Top-Hat-25ft-Mk-0-Classic-Sailing-Yacht-inboard-Newcastle-NSW-No-Reserve/392305772714?hash=item5b573f08aa:g:8E8AAOSwNBFc8OEo

Not to be disrespectful but I think this is old girl would be more suited to Sydney harbour. After a bit of love that is.

I would prefer one of the early cold moulded Top Hats over any of the 'glass versions. Stronger and a better ballast ratio. Quieter and better insulated.

Cold moulding also called double diagnal sheeting is when you you have two layers of wooden planks going in different directions isn't it? If it is do you really think taking a 50 year old wooden boat that could be rotten round the Australia would be a good idea? If i were to buy a rotten boat will cost a lot more than it's worth don't you think. I don't know romona what do you think?
Ps after I read this i sound like I'm calling you out. I'm not trying to sorry if I sounds like it.

Not at all.

Just don't buy a rotten one!
There are plenty of timber boats 50 years or older that are in great condition because they have been maintained properly and are well looked after. These are the sort of boats you could look for.
FWIW.

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AzureF305 said..
Not at all.

Just don't buy a rotten one!
There are plenty of timber boats 50 years or older that are in great condition because they have been maintained properly and are well looked after. These are the sort of boats you could look for.
FWIW.

Yeah i know, but even if all the fittings and screws are bronze (which is ideal). They still only last so long and to replace these would be expensive. I'll think about it but I don't know. Thanks for your reply though.

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AzureF305 said..
"maintained properly and are well looked after."
Replacement of fittings and fasteners is part of maintenance.
Just sayin...