Select to expand quote

twodogs1969 said..
My point was also not bagging the experience of the crew actually the opposite. They have obviously crossed oceans including northern hemisphere. They would have encountered heavy weather previously. With a well set up boat which is obvious by the fact they jury rigged steering for 3 days.
The criticism is don't leave a perfectly good boat and endanger others just because you are scared.
As for being able to hoist a sail in 50 knts you are crossing an ocean you need to be prepared and you should have a system so you are capable of doing it or DON'T GO! You are not prepared. Also what happened to reef (batten down ) early? It is easier to let a reef out or put up bigger sails then trying to go smaller when the crap has hit.
One of the major points I was trying to make is if it can happen to experienced people who are fully prepared. What will be the outcome for someone who is not experienced and doing it on the cheap ?
Someone who is not prepared should not be putting rescuers lives in danger.

I guess most would think like this and most wouldnt go as a result - instead just read about people who are doing it, and wishing they were.
The crew felt they were at a life and death crossroad. they chose life. They did leave a boat that had rolled thats probably still floating but as Pheonix said , there can come a point where you get tossed about that much that you risk injury or death and lose the ability to perform any basic function. THis could have been the case. We dont know and its actually none of our business anyway.
I really hate this attitude people have on here regarding tax payers money, "i dont want people parking a hobie cat on my street , i pay rates blah blah blah. and tax payers footing the bill for these recues etc. Who cares about this stuff?
i dont, not one bit. I have a business and pay tax also and im more than happy for it to go on big fast boats that can get to someone in need quickly. Its not up to me to decide who is deserving "my" Tax money
The waterways cops love this stuff that why they volunteer to do it. They are legends and selfless. Those who take these jobs are real heroes. Epirbs are here for a reason. They didnt misuse the epirb , they didnt take anything for granted. THey were merely going about their adventurous lives doing what mariners have done for a 1000 years. Difference is, we now have sat phones and epirbs so loss of life isnt and shouldnt be as common as it once was. Those systems are set up to be used. Some may need it more than others, but seriously going about and worrying about who foots the bill etc - WHO CARES?. they are safe. We live in the richest country on the planet and yet its citizens complain all the time about Us and them , and whos got what , and i want what hes got and thats not fair etc. drives me crazy and its really not healthy for anyone to be jealous and bitter because someone got rescued, who some people think didnt need to be rescued. I mean seriously who here on this forum can honestly say that anyone who gets rescued is undeserving of being rescued and what on earth does money have to do with anything? Huey doesnt need your money! Huey needs respect. Humans are vulnerable on the sea as in everyday life. The only thing id be annoyed about is the laws changing regarding sailing offshore or sailing in general. Im sure some would love it though as we move into a more controlled society worldwide.

I was asked what rig we used to run into Antigua.
We had a number 4 poled out in the track and a storm jib set off a strong point on the deck forward. This sail we sheeted in pretty central and it acted like a steering sail by backing and filling to steer the yacht.
When the wind was at 35 knots plus we would drop the number 4.
Eventually to point up to 60 off we set the tri sail and played the sheets to get the head off the boat up and dropped the 4 on the deck.
You had to easy sheet the storm jib so it didn't pull the bow down.
With the chain winched up to the boat on the windward side you could sail pretty well, and by easing the chain back and sheeting the tri sail on hard you could bring the boat about slowly or gybe.

I might add the crew were pretty experienced and it all seemed pretty obvious what to do when you had 3 heads working on the problems.
The worst thing was running out of gas to cook and boil water but that is another story.

Cheers

Select to expand quote

Sectorsteve said..

twodogs1969 said..
My point was also not bagging the experience of the crew actually the opposite. They have obviously crossed oceans including northern hemisphere. They would have encountered heavy weather previously. With a well set up boat which is obvious by the fact they jury rigged steering for 3 days.
The criticism is don't leave a perfectly good boat and endanger others just because you are scared.
As for being able to hoist a sail in 50 knts you are crossing an ocean you need to be prepared and you should have a system so you are capable of doing it or DON'T GO! You are not prepared. Also what happened to reef (batten down ) early? It is easier to let a reef out or put up bigger sails then trying to go smaller when the crap has hit.
One of the major points I was trying to make is if it can happen to experienced people who are fully prepared. What will be the outcome for someone who is not experienced and doing it on the cheap ?
Someone who is not prepared should not be putting rescuers lives in danger.

I guess most would think like this and most wouldnt go as a result - instead just read about people who are doing it, and wishing they were.
The crew felt they were at a life and death crossroad. they chose life. They did leave a boat that had rolled thats probably still floating but as Pheonix said , there can come a point where you get tossed about that much that you risk injury or death and lose the ability to perform any basic function. THis could have been the case. We dont know and its actually none of our business anyway.
I really hate this attitude people have on here regarding tax payers money, "i dont want people parking a hobie cat on my street , i pay rates blah blah blah. and tax payers footing the bill for these recues etc. Who cares about this stuff?
i dont, not one bit. I have a business and pay tax also and im more than happy for it to go on big fast boats that can get to someone in need quickly. Its not up to me to decide who is deserving "my" Tax money
The waterways cops love this stuff that why they volunteer to do it. They are legends and selfless. Those who take these jobs are real heroes. Epirbs are here for a reason. They didnt misuse the epirb , they didnt take anything for granted. THey were merely going about their adventurous lives doing what mariners have done for a 1000 years. Difference is, we now have sat phones and epirbs so loss of life isnt and shouldnt be as common as it once was. Those systems are set up to be used. Some may need it more than others, but seriously going about and worrying about who foots the bill etc - WHO CARES?. they are safe. We live in the richest country on the planet and yet its citizens complain all the time about Us and them , and whos got what , and i want what hes got and thats not fair etc. drives me crazy and its really not healthy for anyone to be jealous and bitter because someone got rescued, who some people think didnt need to be rescued. I mean seriously who here on this forum can honestly say that anyone who gets rescued is undeserving of being rescued and what on earth does money have to do with anything? Huey doesnt need your money! Huey needs respect. Humans are vulnerable on the sea as in everyday life. The only thing id be annoyed about is the laws changing regarding sailing offshore or sailing in general. Im sure some would love it though as we move into a more controlled society worldwide.

+1 SS!
We need people with bigger balls than us to help us to find the inner strength to take on our own personal challenges, and confront our own demons.

And if those people occasionally come a cropper, they need to be feted, not denigrated.
Talk about the cost of rescue.....really?
How about we talk about the cost of the snouts in the trough in Canberra....

Sure they might make mistakes, but that's a human trait. They're not Supermen, they're just like us, but they're prepared to put their skills on the line to be tested.

Scott, Amundsen, Chichester, Kay Cottee, Tony Bullimore, Jessica Watson, Lisa Blair, etc, etc....

regards,
allan

Thanks again Alohahugo.

Steve
I wrote a huge response to your post about your contradictions and lack of suitable equipment but decided it would just turn in to a bum fight so I am walking away.

Data
All the names you have used were well prepared. When do we say someoneis not brave but fool hardy?
If you set sail in a timber boat with broken frames , rotten timbers and 40 year old Gal rigging. Are you brave or stupid selfish and putting rescuers lives at risk.

An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

Blythe star cargo boat sinks off tassie in 73. 3 died from memory. VMR , logging on and off came as a result of this tragedy.
Neither crew or captain even knew where they were. THey didnt know if they were on the west or the east coast!
It wasnt because of lack of money that this happened, nor was it because of lack of money or old equipment that many perished in the 98 syd to hobart.
All were prepared, huey had other plans. Such is life.
you or anyone neednt worry about what equipment i have and what it cost etc. Im planning well but you assume the opposite.

Is this thread turning into one of our useless ****fights? Please do not!

Steve, you are almost 100% right - as far as l am concerned.
This is a sad shame that some of us think otherwise.

Both Steve and Twodogs make good points. Yes we should be fully prepared and yes we should live
a life and be adventurous, but some things are beyond our control and weather is one of them.
So I think Phoenix makes the salient point. As humans we can only take so much punishment before
we have to 'bail out' These two had been buffeted to that point and chose to quit. I'm sure I agree
with their decision.
And if all we can do is spend our tax dollars on 'infrastructure' and nothing on humanity then we are
poor specimens.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

An anchor makes a better one as it will stay in the water

on a positive note i appreciated your advice two dogs on getting out there in rough weather which ive been doing.
On this thread ive learned that having one of those drogues is a must!
On their website it says no boat ever went over whilst deployed! for 300usd thats money really well spent.
Not that i would scrimp on safety gear but all the money in the world cannot help some people/situations.
I race with guys in their 60s who dont even know how to heave to and whos 300k boats get used a few months a year. THey spend and spend and spend on new sails etc yet only race around bouys. But i guess this is different. Personally i wanna be confident to survice anything that huey throws at me and part of that is being prepared with gear but also experience. The best experience is to just go do it and get advice from those who do :)

Select to expand quote

twodogs1969 said..

sirgallivant said..
An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

An anchor makes a better one as it will stay in the water

I was thinking the other night maybe a drouge that attaches to the anchor that way could be retrieved by windlass winch if need be. Maybe a winch on the stern with a drough ready to deploy. I think the drouge should be fitted on the stern as it would be far more efective to run with the weather I would assume.

Select to expand quote

twodogs1969 said..

sirgallivant said..
An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

An anchor makes a better one as it will stay in the water

Sorry, but no - unless you have an old admiralty type. The later types go crazy. I have always carried a drogue but never had to use it, until this boat and now I think I would be OK with heaps of rope and the chain from the spare anchor. I am a coward so I hope I never have to use the chain either.

Select to expand quote

twodogs1969 said..
Steve
I wrote a huge response to your post about your contradictions and lack of suitable equipment but decided it would just turn in to a bum fight so I am walking away.

Data
All the names you have used were well prepared. When do we say someoneis not brave but fool hardy?
If you set sail in a timber boat with broken frames , rotten timbers and 40 year old Gal rigging. Are you brave or stupid selfish and putting rescuers lives at risk.

Yep, you've got a point there twodogs..

Select to expand quote

samsturdy said..
Both Steve and Twodogs make good points. Yes we should be fully prepared and yes we should live
a life and be adventurous, but some things are beyond our control and weather is one of them.
So I think Phoenix makes the salient point. As humans we can only take so much punishment before
we have to 'bail out' These two had been buffeted to that point and chose to quit. I'm sure I agree
with their decision.
And if all we can do is spend our tax dollars on 'infrastructure' and nothing on humanity then we are
poor specimens.

The cash has to come from somewhere, and it's not always taken from easy target areas like pollie's pay packets. It could also have been spent on health research, education or other areas. I'd rather it go to good causes, rather than people who by definition did not have properly set-up steering.

Personally I'd say this was the first boat ever to have "rolled" without losing the wind generator, the solar panels from the arch, the plastic cover on the radar, the self furling jib etc. Most boats lose lots of rigging when they roll. If this boat really rolled I'd be amazed.

They may have had 10 years experience but I know many small-craft sailors who have 30 years experience who are still not competent at getting a windsurfer or Tasar around the course in a blow, just as we all know people with 30 years experience behind the roads who are poor drivers.

Select to expand quote

Ringle said..

twodogs1969 said..

shaggybaxter said..
The worst I've had is over 30 hours in 50-60 knots and huge seas, movement is difficult and fatigue a major issue. Heavy weather training become relevant very quickly.
Legitimate question. If you're doing bluewater passages, shouldn't you have an emergency rudder system all worked out and deployable in foul weather? (Note I mean the rudder, not steering)
So many epirb activations/rescues are from rudder loss, yet manufacturers still pay lip service to this seemingly fundamental requirement, leaving it up to the owner to work out.
I've got dual rudders, and I'm so paranoid I'm working through the process even with dual rudders.
Don't get me started on a rudder loss flooding the interior of the boat, that's another major gripe i have with bluewater yacht builders.

Very easy and basic emergency rudder is wash board on spinnaker pole then lash to the pushpit rails.

The AYF offshore safety rules have a requirement for alternative steering and the spin pole and bunk board method has been accepted by safety officers. I have met several racing sailors obliged to try this method and found it almost unworkable and ineffective. On a small enough cruising boat it may work. There are some safety officers who strongly recommend the drogue method.

There have been several yachting magazine practical tests that have tried different methods and a drogue rigged on an adjustable bridle off the stern was the most effective method found.

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/04/14/guide-steering-without-rudder-methods-equipment-tested/

www.mysailing.com.au/racing/emergency-steering-solutions

We used the spinnaker pole and floorboard method after some idiot driver (me) didn't see a sunfish too late in a Hobart. When rigged in the textbook fashion as a steering oar it was useless because the leverage is all wrong. Rigged more vertically up the backstay so that it acted like a normal (albiet raked) rudder and with the normal tiller lashed in a tiller, it worked fine with the storm jib set to hold the bow down.

The boat is a Spray. The prototype self-steered without a wind vane. If a boat can do that, then you should be able to get it to steer using sail trim. It's a long keel ketch; perhaps the ideal boat for that task.

Select to expand quote

PhoenixStar said..

twodogs1969 said..

sirgallivant said..
An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

An anchor makes a better one as it will stay in the water

Sorry, but no - unless you have an old admiralty type. The later types go crazy. I have always carried a drogue but never had to use it, until this boat and now I think I would be OK with heaps of rope and the chain from the spare anchor. I am a coward so I hope I never have to use the chain either.

Interested to know what you mean by ''later types go crazy''. Are you recommending not hanging an anchor off the back of a drogue unles it's an admiralty type? If so, how did you reach this conclusion? A serious question, as I was looking at using a danforth anchor or something similar rather than chain on the end of mine

Select to expand quote

claverton said..

PhoenixStar said..

twodogs1969 said..

sirgallivant said..
An old tyre or two and some chain makes a good makeshift drouge if one could not afford the exorbitant price they ask for a Jordan's.
It is easier to store on a small boat as well.

An anchor makes a better one as it will stay in the water

Sorry, but no - unless you have an old admiralty type. The later types go crazy. I have always carried a drogue but never had to use it, until this boat and now I think I would be OK with heaps of rope and the chain from the spare anchor. I am a coward so I hope I never have to use the chain either.

Interested to know what you mean by ''later types go crazy''. Are you recommending not hanging an anchor off the back of a drogue unles it's an admiralty type? If so, how did you reach this conclusion? A serious question, as I was looking at using a danforth anchor or something similar rather than chain on the end of mine

You might get away with a danforth if you shackle it by the crown instead of the shank. If not it will aquaplane whichever the way the flukes dictate, and if the flukes are even a little out of hydraulic balance spin madly. Ploughs in all their various forms will also aquaplane if they are streamed by the shank.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

samsturdy said..
Both Steve and Twodogs make good points. Yes we should be fully prepared and yes we should live
a life and be adventurous, but some things are beyond our control and weather is one of them.
So I think Phoenix makes the salient point. As humans we can only take so much punishment before
we have to 'bail out' These two had been buffeted to that point and chose to quit. I'm sure I agree
with their decision.
And if all we can do is spend our tax dollars on 'infrastructure' and nothing on humanity then we are
poor specimens.

The cash has to come from somewhere, and it's not always taken from easy target areas like pollie's pay packets. It could also have been spent on health research, education or other areas. I'd rather it go to good causes, rather than people who by definition did not have properly set-up steering.

Personally I'd say this was the first boat ever to have "rolled" without losing the wind generator, the solar panels from the arch, the plastic cover on the radar, the self furling jib etc. Most boats lose lots of rigging when they roll. If this boat really rolled I'd be amazed.

They may have had 10 years experience but I know many small-craft sailors who have 30 years experience who are still not competent at getting a windsurfer or Tasar around the course in a blow, just as we all know people with 30 years experience behind the roads who are poor drivers.

Man, the cash has already been spent on that infrastructure, as it has been with all related stuff, like all of our Defence Force hardware, after that its just pay for the fuel and pay checks for personnel, and then call it practice/preparedness. Then, OK, here we go again, it's about whether the call-out is justified. Someone end this thread, or me !, Form an orderly line please.

www.morganscloud.com/2017/03/12/jordan-series-drogue-durability-problems/

All this 'what happened or what might have happened ?' is leading to nowhere.
However, it would be really useful and interesting to talk to the crew and find out first hand what really caused the abandonment of the vessel and why.
Does one have an idea of their location?
I'd be willing to do an interview.

this is one of the recent posts form cruisers forum. The other boat she is referring to is a 1 which left at the same time, but diverted north.

"Let's play a little with what we've been told so far. Lo was forecast to develop on the trough and comeoffshore. No one on earth knew how deep it would go and so fast, too.

Maybe the difference was the other guys were experienced with the crossing and familiar with theeast coast cutoff lows. The ones who lost the boat are pegged as people wanting to complete acircumnavigation. We didn't hear about the cut off lows till we'd spent some time in NSW. So one possible difference is just that one skipper said to him/herself something like "if this lo deepens, we'd better be to the north of here, above 30 deg S." And the other skipper, "well, we'll plan to lie to thesea anchor if it gets unpleasant, a tactic we've used with success in the past." And, yes, I suppose sliding down a wave backwards could have buggered ('scuse me) their rudder.

Another thing, the skipper who went north may have a far more weatherly boat than the one that was abandoned, so the other guy may have felt forced to adopt the sea anchor route. Without beating this particular drum too long, let me just say I think the ability to go well to windward is one that I personally think is very important, and some boats are lots better at it than others. And, I want to say that in the interest of "not being there", we have beat into 45 knots all day and much of the night, to move away from a cyclone's predicted path and into a hurricane hole. It would have been a lot harder in a boat that didn't point as well.

I would have thought the high seas forecasts would have given a fairly early alert to head north, but timing is everything! or almost, because weatherly capability could also be the crux of the issue. I don't know if the vessel that was lost even had a useable staysail. Their headsail was rather shredded. Brings up the possibility of using sails that were too old."

Ann

Just a quick thought - maybe they thought they could handle the forecast weather but didn't know about the EAC and the effects of its interaction with southerlies.
Having been in a EAC/20Kn Southerly combination and seeing the huge waves that developed, I can only imagine the effects of gale force southerlies. It would be extremely scary and dangerous.

My experience was entirely non threatening because the waves, though huge, were not breaking - no white caps to be seen. Still an awesome and humbling experience.

regards,
allan

I am not planning to go out there in bad conditions but l found compelling to read up on the subject of weather as well as storm conditions. The Dashews two books MWH and STS, Marine Weather Handbook and Surviving The Storm are both excellent publications and the previous one discussing the very subject we are talking about. I found this book especially useful because it explains what to look for and how to do it as far as weather forecasts and weather reports are concerned. Also it explains the 500mb charts importance and the predictability of bad weather well before it hit the non suspecting sailor. The NZ scene is discussed in details.
I find it peculiar, that "experienced" seaman do not research this subjects before venturing across the seas. What are they doing on stormy nights well before their trip?
One would think, they are reading and learning a lots of things one might encounter out there.
Obviously not so.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
I am not planning to go out there in bad conditions but l found compelling to read up on the subject of weather as well as storm conditions. The Dashews two books MWH and STS, Marine Weather Handbook and Surviving The Storm are both excellent publications and the previous one discussing the very subject we are talking about. I found this book especially useful because it explains what to look for and how to do it as far as weather forecasts and weather reports are concerned. Also it explains the 500mb charts importance and the predictability of bad weather well before it hit the non suspecting sailor. The NZ scene is discussed in details.
I find it peculiar, that "experienced" seaman do not research this subjects before venturing across the seas. What are they doing on stormy nights well before their trip?
One would think, they are reading and learning a lots of things one might encounter out there.
Obviously not so.

i absolutely love those books. Im reading the 1000 page encyclopaedia again to get myself psyched. Its a scary idea leaving indefinitely but these guys make it all ok :)
Surviving the storm and the mariners handbook are awesome. They write those books so well and full of testimonials and stories from many other mariners. I love the syd to hobart story about the guys from nz on the 30 footer and how they managed their boat in those enormous seas.
I will be reading all these books constantly over the next few months.

If l can recommend just a few, not necessarily new books which gave me a depth of knowledge and countless hours of pleasure:
Tying Knots by Manfred Friedel,
This is cruising by Des Sleightholme,
The southern sky by David Reidy& Ken Wallace,
Sailboats by Richard M. Sherwood,
All the 20 books of Patrick O'Brian,
The sailmaker's apprentice by Emiliano Marino,
The Complete Guide of Choosing a Cruising Sailboat by
Roger Marshall,
Navigation Manual by Jeff Toghill,
Close to the wind by Pete Goss,
Lionheart by Jesse Martin,
First Lady by Kay Cottee,
Sailing around the world by Joshua Slocum,
The romantic challenge by Francis Chichester,
Simple solutions by Alan Lucas,
Cruising the coral coast by the same,
The long way and Cape Horn:The logical route by Moitessier,
The last navigator by Steven Thomas,
Left for death by Nick Ward,
True Spirit by Jesse Watson,
Taking on the world by Ellen MacArthur,
Beyond Jules Verne by Robin Knox-Johnston,
Rob Mundle's Fatal storm...Dashew and Foolish...
and the list goes on and on and.....
I am growing prolix here.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
If l can recommend just a few, not necessarily new books which gave me a depth of knowledge and countless hours of pleasure:
Tying Knots by Manfred Friedel,
This is cruising by Des Sleightholme,
The southern sky by David Reidy& Ken Wallace,
Sailboats by Richard M. Sherwood,
All the 20 books of Patrick O'Brian,
The sailmaker's apprentice by Emiliano Marino,
The Complete Guide of Choosing a Cruising Sailboat by
Roger Marshall,
Navigation Manual by Jeff Toghill,
Close to the wind by Pete Goss,
Lionheart by Jesse Martin,
First Lady by Kay Cottee,
Sailing around the world by Joshua Slocum,
The romantic challenge by Francis Chichester,
Simple solutions by Alan Lucas,
Cruising the coral coast by the same,
The long way and Cape Horn:The logical route by Moitessier,
The last navigator by Steven Thomas,
Left for death by Nick Ward,
True Spirit by Jesse Watson,
Taking on the world by Ellen MacArthur,
Beyond Jules Verne by Robin Knox-Johnston,
Rob Mundle's Fatal storm...Dashew and Foolish...
and the list goes on and on and.....
I am growing prolix here.

Have you ever got your hands on "We, The Navigators" makes us all look pretty useless compared with the skills these guys handed down through the generations.

It is a version of the above mentioned book The last navigator by Steven Thomas. Oh yeah.
Those guys did it from the beginning of humanity and we will sorely miss their knowledge.




And if we are at the stars already, l love this app. called SkEye.



It gives me constant enjoyment and new knowledge every time l open it.
Highly recommended!


Why can not those emoticons be deleted like before? Toph?
(I still dislike the new site format!)

The yacht "Val" was spotted by a cruise ship off Gabo Is on Tuesday, the owner was contacted by police.
The yacht was towed by water police to the mainland yesterday, & released back to the owner last night.
Info from NSW Police bookface.

Select to expand quote

BlueMoon said..
The yacht "Val" was spotted by a cruise ship off Gabo Is on Tuesday, the owner was contacted by police.
The yacht was towed by water police to the mainland yesterday, & released back to the owner last night.
Info from NSW Police bookface.

happy days