real shallow draft!

There was a trip from Rotterdam to the Med. years ago. It blew from Ushant to Cape Trafalgar like it does in the Atlantic. Around the mouth of the Bay of Biscay was the worse, one knock down and constant buffeting from 45 to 55 gusting 60-70 all day.
Half of the crew was spewing the other half was greenish yellow, most of them fair weather sailors. The captain was chewing his dinner, chorizo in one hand, bread in the other with a cuppa between his legs.
One of the crew asked him between two chucks:
'How can you eat and stand this, aren't you scared a bit?' He said: I'we been around the Horn six times, this is nothing compared to what we copped there twice.'
'What was it like?' the sick man asked.
'It is useless to talk about it - the captain said - you have to live thorough it, then you'll know.'

If one had some memories of similar situations, knows, and could give advice while the rest who might think they know and give advice regardless, or criticises, are akin to a fool.

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Ramona said..
www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/

That Spray is going to be out there for a very long time.

The police boat was very impressive

Yep, Jordan Series Drogue. Had mine setup on deck all time when doing ocean passages so it could be deployed at a moments notice.

3 days with no rudder, and a jury rig wouldn't be too effective in those conditions. But the boat was still watertight and seaworthy. Not sure what I would have done. Early in my offshore experience probably called for help. Now if the boat was watertight and I had a good raft I'd probably hang in there knowing bad blows don't last forever. At the time of rescue the sea was lumpy but in no way dangerous. In fact it was very sailable.
i doubt the boat rolled 360 or even had the masts in the water, the above decks would have suffered more damage than is apparent in what I can see.

Looking back at the BOM Synoptics over the past week, started off as a relatively innocuous looking trough of low pressure off NSW that quickly developed into a bit of a dreaded East Coast Low. They probably thought they had a nice weather window departing NZ. It would be interesting to see what the forecast was around 7 days ago and whether the Low was forecast to develop that much?

I can speak from some experience sailing north off the east coast of NZ halfway between Gisborne and Auckland on the 39ft RORC39 I had at the time.

We set of at the beginning of a high, good weather as the wisdom goes. Choose the weather right? About half way a low that was theoretically a long way away when we left appeared closer and closer and eventually was between us and NZ. It approached faster than we expected and changed its direction. Having a top speed of 5 knots there was no possibility of getting out of its way.

After the low hit we had big nasty waves and a full on gale. At one point trying to point into the waves the bow dug into an oncoming wave and we took 0.5m of green cold water down the length of the boat which smashed our dinghy off the davits on the stern arch. The only thing left was the bow of the dingy attached by its painter. The cockpit was filled to the top with green water. I then switched plan to using storm jib and running with the waves and gale which worked well until night when I couldnt see where the waves from behind were so we broached badly a few times and I expected we could actually roll.

In the morning same. Now we had a life raft and sea anchor. By the time the morning came the three of us were so exhausted from continuously bracing ourselves, everything was cold wet and slippery, all we could do was sit tight and ride it out running down wind. The thought of lifting the life raft overboard and getting in it was a dream due to exhaustion and getting the sea anchor out the same dream. We also had an EPIRB but we decided to avoid that because we didnt want to be on TV. A day later we did get out the other side and things settled down.

So I would say from my view what happened to them could happen to anyone. I would never say for one minute they did anything wrong or give them armchair advice. When you are actually there it is really difficult, and a yacht has lack of speed when it comes to avoiding weather.

Good story Trek.
I agree 100%.

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Trek said..
I can speak from some experience sailing north off the east coast of NZ halfway between Gisborne and Auckland on the 39ft RORC39 I had at the time.

We set of at the beginning of a high, good weather as the wisdom goes. Choose the weather right? About half way a low that was theoretically a long way away when we left appeared closer and closer and eventually was between us and NZ. It approached faster than we expected and changed its direction. Having a top speed of 5 knots there was no possibility of getting out of its way.

After the low hit we had big nasty waves and a full on gale. At one point trying to point into the waves the bow dug into an oncoming wave and we took 0.5m of green cold water down the length of the boat which smashed our dinghy off the davits on the stern arch. The only thing left was the bow of the dingy attached by its painter. The cockpit was filled to the top with green water. I then switched plan to using storm jib and running with the waves and gale which worked well until night when I couldnt see where the waves from behind were so we broached badly a few times and I expected we could actually roll.

In the morning same. Now we had a life raft and sea anchor. By the time the morning came the three of us were so exhausted from continuously bracing ourselves, everything was cold wet and slippery, all we could do was sit tight and ride it out running down wind. The thought of lifting the life raft overboard and getting in it was a dream due to exhaustion and getting the sea anchor out the same dream. We also had an EPIRB but we decided to avoid that because we didnt want to be on TV. A day later we did get out the other side and things settled down.

So I would say from my view what happened to them could happen to anyone. I would never say for one minute they did anything wrong or give them armchair advice. When you are actually there it is really difficult, and a yacht has lack of speed when it comes to avoiding weather.

Couldn't agree more on the effect of fatigue. You get to the point you can't or just don't want to do any work.
When it gets bad I heave to with the bow as close to the wind as possible, secure the boat and get everybody below. I have only had sustained winds over 40kts with gusts to low 50s and that was for about 18 hours. Battling stronger conditions for multiple days when heaving to isn't safe, no thanks.

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Sectorsteve said..
real shallow draft!

The best type (the best compromise, anyway) IMHO, have a look at their website that Ringle posted (thanks Ringle!), for some inspiration for where shallow boats can go.
Cheers

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Trek said..
I can speak from some experience sailing north off the east coast of NZ halfway between Gisborne and Auckland on the 39ft RORC39 I had at the time.

We set of at the beginning of a high, good weather as the wisdom goes. Choose the weather right? About half way a low that was theoretically a long way away when we left appeared closer and closer and eventually was between us and NZ. It approached faster than we expected and changed its direction. Having a top speed of 5 knots there was no possibility of getting out of its way.

After the low hit we had big nasty waves and a full on gale. At one point trying to point into the waves the bow dug into an oncoming wave and we took 0.5m of green cold water down the length of the boat which smashed our dinghy off the davits on the stern arch. The only thing left was the bow of the dingy attached by its painter. The cockpit was filled to the top with green water. I then switched plan to using storm jib and running with the waves and gale which worked well until night when I couldnt see where the waves from behind were so we broached badly a few times and I expected we could actually roll.

In the morning same. Now we had a life raft and sea anchor. By the time the morning came the three of us were so exhausted from continuously bracing ourselves, everything was cold wet and slippery, all we could do was sit tight and ride it out running down wind. The thought of lifting the life raft overboard and getting in it was a dream due to exhaustion and getting the sea anchor out the same dream. We also had an EPIRB but we decided to avoid that because we didnt want to be on TV. A day later we did get out the other side and things settled down.

So I would say from my view what happened to them could happen to anyone. I would never say for one minute they did anything wrong or give them armchair advice. When you are actually there it is really difficult, and a yacht has lack of speed when it comes to avoiding weather.

+1 Trek. I tried to go forward in bad conditions once, don't know how strong the wind was cos I didn't have an instrument, butover 50. I tried to crawl along the side deck but had my knees blown out from under me by the wind and slid on my belly back to the cockpit, luckily grabbed a staunchon and tumbled back inside. My point being that talk of deploying a drogue or sea anchor or getting a storm sail up in some conditions is just codswallop.

Also had a crew sail across the cabin when Exocet was knocked down on the way to Sydney some years ago, he took out the HF radio on the way past and suffered concussion and spent the rest of the trip wedged in sails in the forecastle to keep him more or less steady. Exocet was only 10.5 beam. I would hate to be thrown across a spray cabin in a knock down.

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twodogs1969 said..
They were going for 3 days after the rudder broke so they must have had some sort of set up.
What broke ? Was it the steering gear? They would have had an emergency tiller. If more than this emergency steering is not hard to set up wash board on a spinnaker pole.

Yes, I would love to know what exactly broke and how it broke.

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PhoenixStar said..

Trek said..
I can speak from some experience sailing north off the east coast of NZ halfway between Gisborne and Auckland on the 39ft RORC39 I had at the time.

We set of at the beginning of a high, good weather as the wisdom goes. Choose the weather right? About half way a low that was theoretically a long way away when we left appeared closer and closer and eventually was between us and NZ. It approached faster than we expected and changed its direction. Having a top speed of 5 knots there was no possibility of getting out of its way.

After the low hit we had big nasty waves and a full on gale. At one point trying to point into the waves the bow dug into an oncoming wave and we took 0.5m of green cold water down the length of the boat which smashed our dinghy off the davits on the stern arch. The only thing left was the bow of the dingy attached by its painter. The cockpit was filled to the top with green water. I then switched plan to using storm jib and running with the waves and gale which worked well until night when I couldnt see where the waves from behind were so we broached badly a few times and I expected we could actually roll.

In the morning same. Now we had a life raft and sea anchor. By the time the morning came the three of us were so exhausted from continuously bracing ourselves, everything was cold wet and slippery, all we could do was sit tight and ride it out running down wind. The thought of lifting the life raft overboard and getting in it was a dream due to exhaustion and getting the sea anchor out the same dream. We also had an EPIRB but we decided to avoid that because we didnt want to be on TV. A day later we did get out the other side and things settled down.

So I would say from my view what happened to them could happen to anyone. I would never say for one minute they did anything wrong or give them armchair advice. When you are actually there it is really difficult, and a yacht has lack of speed when it comes to avoiding weather.

+1 Trek. I tried to go forward in bad conditions once, don't know how strong the wind was cos I didn't have an instrument, butover 50. I tried to crawl along the side deck but had my knees blown out from under me by the wind and slid on my belly back to the cockpit, luckily grabbed a staunchon and tumbled back inside. My point being that talk of deploying a drogue or sea anchor or getting a storm sail up in some conditions is just codswallop.

Also had a crew sail across the cabin when Exocet was knocked down on the way to Sydney some years ago, he took out the HF radio on the way past and suffered concussion and spent the rest of the trip wedged in sails in the forecastle to keep him more or less steady. Exocet was only 10.5 beam. I would hate to be thrown across a spray cabin in a knock down.

Yes it would depend on the circumstances and I guess they took a chance already and tried to steer the boat with out a rubber and the storm increased and made it untenable other than hang on for grim death.
you would have to live through it to under stand I guess before I started this thread I thought the spray was over 40 foot but shes just 10 meters not quite as heavy displacement as I thought

Yes I am sympathetic with rather than critical of the skipper.

As skipper, once you have doubt about whether the boat will withstand another rollover or severe knockdown, or not, then you really are in life-vs-death territory.
And if you have reasonable offshore experience, and you reach the point where life and death seems 50:50, who can cast blame if you choose rescue?
Perhaps if you are a professional naval architect, and you have good knowledge of the design and construction of the boat you're on, maybe the point at which you reach the life-death doubt is slightly different (another 10kts or heavier breaking waves).
But once you reach that point of doubt, who would not empathise with your plight?

I never meant this to be critical of the crew or the skipper in putting this thread up just a learning experience and a senario I could use.
For a H28 would you sea anchor to the stern or bow

I've always been a believe of fixing a problem and move on and no blame

My point was also not bagging the experience of the crew actually the opposite. They have obviously crossed oceans including northern hemisphere. They would have encountered heavy weather previously. With a well set up boat which is obvious by the fact they jury rigged steering for 3 days.
The criticism is don't leave a perfectly good boat and endanger others just because you are scared.
As for being able to hoist a sail in 50 knts you are crossing an ocean you need to be prepared and you should have a system so you are capable of doing it or DON'T GO! You are not prepared. Also what happened to reef (batten down ) early? It is easier to let a reef out or put up bigger sails then trying to go smaller when the crap has hit.
One of the major points I was trying to make is if it can happen to experienced people who are fully prepared. What will be the outcome for someone who is not experienced and doing it on the cheap ?
Someone who is not prepared should not be putting rescuers lives in danger.

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twodogs1969 said..
My point was also not bagging the experience of the crew actually the opposite. They have obviously crossed oceans including northern hemisphere. They would have encountered heavy weather previously. With a well set up boat which is obvious by the fact they jury rigged steering for 3 days.
The criticism is don't leave a perfectly good boat and endanger others just because you are scared.
As for being able to hoist a sail in 50 knts you are crossing an ocean you need to be prepared and you should have a system so you are capable of doing it or DON'T GO! You are not prepared. Also what happened to reef (batten down ) early? It is easier to let a reef out or put up bigger sails then trying to go smaller when the crap has hit.
One of the major points I was trying to make is if it can happen to experienced people who are fully prepared. What will be the outcome for someone who is not experienced and doing it on the cheap ?
Someone who is not prepared should not be putting rescuers lives in danger.

I've a feeling before dark Ill reduce sail down when sailing at night and like a fire you have a plan or a storm what if and what to do so its just like making a coffee

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HG02 said..

twodogs1969 said..
My point was also not bagging the experience of the crew actually the opposite. They have obviously crossed oceans including northern hemisphere. They would have encountered heavy weather previously. With a well set up boat which is obvious by the fact they jury rigged steering for 3 days.
The criticism is don't leave a perfectly good boat and endanger others just because you are scared.
As for being able to hoist a sail in 50 knts you are crossing an ocean you need to be prepared and you should have a system so you are capable of doing it or DON'T GO! You are not prepared. Also what happened to reef (batten down ) early? It is easier to let a reef out or put up bigger sails then trying to go smaller when the crap has hit.
One of the major points I was trying to make is if it can happen to experienced people who are fully prepared. What will be the outcome for someone who is not experienced and doing it on the cheap ?
Someone who is not prepared should not be putting rescuers lives in danger.

I've a feeling before dark Ill reduce sail down when sailing at night and like a fire you have a plan or a storm what if and what to do so its just like making a coffee

That's a sensible way to go.
You have also put a lot of thought into your boat and spent a lot getting it in good shape.

To the trans-Tasman sailors on the thread, what weather forecasting services have you relied on? And if you had something like PredictWind (along with a sat phone or Iridium Go to stay up to date at sea), do you think you could have avoided the worst of the bad weather? While it might be impossible to completely avoid the weather, having a heads-up from an up-to-date forecast seems invaluable.

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scruzin said..
To the trans-Tasman sailors on the thread, what weather forecasting services have you relied on? And if you had something like PredictWind (along with a sat phone or Iridium Go to stay up to date at sea), do you think you could have avoided the worst of the bad weather? While it might be impossible to completely avoid the weather, having a heads-up from an up-to-date forecast seems invaluable.

Predictwind is not reliable in the southern hemisphere. New Zealand bureau of met is the best.

The worst I've had is over 30 hours in 50-60 knots and huge seas, movement is difficult and fatigue a major issue. Heavy weather training become relevant very quickly.
Legitimate question. If you're doing bluewater passages, shouldn't you have an emergency rudder system all worked out and deployable in foul weather? (Note I mean the rudder, not steering)
So many epirb activations/rescues are from rudder loss, yet manufacturers still pay lip service to this seemingly fundamental requirement, leaving it up to the owner to work out.
I've got dual rudders, and I'm so paranoid I'm working through the process even with dual rudders.
Don't get me started on a rudder loss flooding the interior of the boat, that's another major gripe i have with bluewater yacht builders.

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shaggybaxter said..
The worst I've had is over 30 hours in 50-60 knots and huge seas, movement is difficult and fatigue a major issue. Heavy weather training become relevant very quickly.
Legitimate question. If you're doing bluewater passages, shouldn't you have an emergency rudder system all worked out and deployable in foul weather? (Note I mean the rudder, not steering)
So many epirb activations/rescues are from rudder loss, yet manufacturers still pay lip service to this seemingly fundamental requirement, leaving it up to the owner to work out.
I've got dual rudders, and I'm so paranoid I'm working through the process even with dual rudders.
Don't get me started on a rudder loss flooding the interior of the boat, that's another major gripe i have with bluewater yacht builders.

Very easy and basic emergency rudder is wash board on spinnaker pole then lash to the pushpit rails.

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PhoenixStar said..

scruzin said..
To the trans-Tasman sailors on the thread, what weather forecasting services have you relied on? And if you had something like PredictWind (along with a sat phone or Iridium Go to stay up to date at sea), do you think you could have avoided the worst of the bad weather? While it might be impossible to completely avoid the weather, having a heads-up from an up-to-date forecast seems invaluable.

Predictwind is not reliable in the southern hemisphere. New Zealand bureau of met is the best.

Really? That's really surprising, since PredictWind is NZ based.

My experience here in SA is that they are usually more accurate than BoM (although they definitely get in wrong in places, such as Backstairs Passage - alhough so does BoM).

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twodogs1969 said..

shaggybaxter said..
The worst I've had is over 30 hours in 50-60 knots and huge seas, movement is difficult and fatigue a major issue. Heavy weather training become relevant very quickly.
Legitimate question. If you're doing bluewater passages, shouldn't you have an emergency rudder system all worked out and deployable in foul weather? (Note I mean the rudder, not steering)
So many epirb activations/rescues are from rudder loss, yet manufacturers still pay lip service to this seemingly fundamental requirement, leaving it up to the owner to work out.
I've got dual rudders, and I'm so paranoid I'm working through the process even with dual rudders.
Don't get me started on a rudder loss flooding the interior of the boat, that's another major gripe i have with bluewater yacht builders.

Very easy and basic emergency rudder is wash board on spinnaker pole then lash to the pushpit rails.

Steering by drogue is possible too. Set up a bridle by attaching the tow line off the weather hull and attaching a secondary line at a fixed point along the tow line approximately 2/3 to 1 boat length astern to a winch on the opposite (leeward) hull.

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scruzin said..

PhoenixStar said..

scruzin said..
To the trans-Tasman sailors on the thread, what weather forecasting services have you relied on? And if you had something like PredictWind (along with a sat phone or Iridium Go to stay up to date at sea), do you think you could have avoided the worst of the bad weather? While it might be impossible to completely avoid the weather, having a heads-up from an up-to-date forecast seems invaluable.

Predictwind is not reliable in the southern hemisphere. New Zealand bureau of met is the best.

Really? That's really surprising, since PredictWind is NZ based.

My experience here in SA is that they are usually more accurate than BoM (although they're definitely get in wrong in places, such as Backstairs Passage).

Can't go past BOM. " meteye"

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twodogs1969 said..

shaggybaxter said..
The worst I've had is over 30 hours in 50-60 knots and huge seas, movement is difficult and fatigue a major issue. Heavy weather training become relevant very quickly.
Legitimate question. If you're doing bluewater passages, shouldn't you have an emergency rudder system all worked out and deployable in foul weather? (Note I mean the rudder, not steering)
So many epirb activations/rescues are from rudder loss, yet manufacturers still pay lip service to this seemingly fundamental requirement, leaving it up to the owner to work out.
I've got dual rudders, and I'm so paranoid I'm working through the process even with dual rudders.
Don't get me started on a rudder loss flooding the interior of the boat, that's another major gripe i have with bluewater yacht builders.

Very easy and basic emergency rudder is wash board on spinnaker pole then lash to the pushpit rails.

The AYF offshore safety rules have a requirement for alternative steering and the spin pole and bunk board method has been accepted by safety officers. I have met several racing sailors obliged to try this method and found it almost unworkable and ineffective. On a small enough cruising boat it may work. There are some safety officers who strongly recommend the drogue method.

There have been several yachting magazine practical tests that have tried different methods and a drogue rigged on an adjustable bridle off the stern was the most effective method found.

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/04/14/guide-steering-without-rudder-methods-equipment-tested/

www.mysailing.com.au/racing/emergency-steering-solutions

Hi All
A terrible situation for these guys and not one to take lightly. They will recover there boat and learn a lesson along the way.

For your information this may help some one in a similar situation one day.
I was a on a yacht doing a delivery across the Atlantic in the late 1990's ,we had about 35 knots of wind and were running down 3-5 metre swells doing quite nicely. We were about 400 miles from Antigua.
In the middle of the night the rudder snapped off just under the hull leaving about 4 inches of rudder.
The hull integrity was not compromised so we were not taking water which i think is the most important issue.
The skipper came on deck screaming about how useless the helm was to wipe out the boat, the helm was my wife a very experienced sailor who had been on the training crew for the previous volvo race with EF language girls boat, and she had asked me to come on deck about a half hour before as she thought the boat was not responding normally to the helm and was abit worried at that time, I had reduced sail.
So when the boat would not come back onto course the 4 crew got the sails down and streamed a few warps over the transom to get the boat moving as the sea way way pretty rough and the yacht was rolling beam on to the seas.
We ran under bare poles until morning then reassessed.
We made a jury rudder out of a spinnaker pole and purpose designed large floor board pre drilled and with u bolts ready to go, which we had to lash it in place on the transom, and then tie in a central position using sheets from each primary winch, as you could not physically hold the pole against the force of the waves running up behind you and as the boat accelerated you had no chance. We also used a halyard on the inboard end of the pole to hold the rudder in the water again you could not physically hold it in yourself.
After a while we realised that the spinnaker pole was flexing terribly and would break if pushed harder, as the wind was getting up and we had to slow the boat down more.
I had read a story by Bruce Hitchman, who some of you may have known of, a very experienced short handed sailor about sailing into Lord Howe island with no rudder.
He set up a warp and anchor chain drogue running off the primary winches which he towed behind his boat that enabled him to run pretty much directly into Lord howe in gale conditions.
We attached the anchor warp to the primaries and attached the anchor chain about 50/70 metres of chain, to the warp in 2 places with shackles in a big loop. We deployed the loop and warp dragging it in the wave train at least one back from the wave directly behind the boat.
We could steer somewhat by winching up more chain to the side you wanted to steer to.
Not only did this slow us down and steady the boat keeping the stern to the seas. by playing with sail configurations we could steer the yacht up to about 60 degrees off the wind and moderate our speed to suit the wind and sea state. We could take the emergency rudder out of the water and only used it for close manoeuvring as we came up to English harbour.

We then sailed 4 days making about 100 miles a day very comfortably and in no danger and did no further damage to the boat or crew.
We had varying conditions between 45 knots and big seas through to 15 nots relatively benign.
I had looked at the sea anchor and as we did not want to remain holding position and i would rather be moving did not deploy it. However some of the newer sea anchors seem to be far more versatile and would be great. Particularly if you had to lie bow on to the waves for some reason.
As a further note
The skipper had retired to his cabin where we did not see him again for the next 4 days or so apart from having a smoke and coming out to grab some food, an interesting study in human behaviour. He later told me after a few beers that he thought the situation was out of his control and he would have called for assistance.

This may not work in all situations but worked for us.
Fair winds be safe

Hugo what a great blow by blow story. Thank goodness you didn't have to rely on the skipper, a cool head
prevailed as it usually does in such circumstances. I really enjoyed reading your account of that adventure.

Thanks for that Alohahugo.

Perhaps I could add something else to the discussion from an experience I had.

I was on a 40 foot fin keeled boat off Gabo in a bad blow. We decided to get all sail off as the wind was storm force. Running down wind under bare poles we were broached sideways by a large breaking wave. The boat sat side on to the seas and was far too slow to respond to the helm as we had very little way on. The next sea was larger and the crest started breaking and neatly rolled us. We assessed the boat and found only failed electronics from being washed with bilge water hence many alarms beeping. We set about getting a storm jib on as we didn't want to get stuck side on to another breaking sea. The storm jib was nice and small and we set it on a 3 foot long tack strop to make sure it was in the breeze as much as possible. It meant that if the boat got a little sideways at times the jib would pull the bow down and give us steerage way. The wind dropped to a relatively calm 35 knots after about 8 hrs and we got clear of Bass straight as well.

Of course this isn't a story about lost steering but I feel just as a drogue can help a disabled boat run before a sea so a scrap of sail area right forward can help with that too.

I'd welcome any observations or experiences with this.

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samsturdy said..
Hugo what a great blow by blow story. Thank goodness you didn't have to rely on the skipper, a cool head
prevailed as it usually does in such circumstances. I really enjoyed reading your account of that adventure.

Seconded! Thanks for sharing.

The beauty of a drogue vs. a sea anchor is that you can still make good progress; in your case, 100 miles/day

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BlueMoon said..

Sectorsteve said..
real shallow draft!

The best type (the best compromise, anyway) IMHO, have a look at their website that Ringle posted (thanks Ringle!), for some inspiration for where shallow boats can go.
Cheers

i did. great pictures etc.