I have a full battened loose footed main sail with two slab reefs.
The reefing lines are internal in the boom and exit the boom at the stern end, one on each side of the outhaul.
I will have a boom bag and lazy jacks made that will be attached to the boom with slides in the boom track.

Most or many slab reefing lines one sees have the reefeing lines going through the reefing cringle and back down to the boom and tied to the boom with I think usually a rolling hitch.

My Question:- Is it necessary to take the lines back down to the boom or can I simply tie the lines to the reefing cringles with a bowline or halyard knot?

You would lose the mechanical advantage gained by returning the line back down to the boom. It's somewhat less than the theoretical 2:1 due to friction, but still helpful.

I don't think you would be able to get tension on the cringle to keep it down close to the boom. It will pull on an angle to the rear of the boom, so it may flag around a lot and your main would not hold its shape.

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Craig66 said..
I don't think you would be able to get tension on the cringle to keep it down close to the boom. It will pull on an angle to the rear of the boom, so it may flag around a lot and your main would not hold its shape.

definitely the position of where it is tied to the boom is critical impossible to get foot and leech tension correct if it is in he wrong position

Would definitely stay with the normal 2:1 purchase system. To reduce friction we shackle a pulley onto the reef cringle. And use a 6mm rope through the 2 small cringles in the sail body at 1/3 and 2/3 sail chord as well as the leech cringle to snug the sail down onto the boom and calm the sail flapping.

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cisco said..
I have a full battened loose footed main sail with two slab reefs.
The reefing lines are internal in the boom and exit the boom at the stern end, one on each side of the outhaul.
I will have a boom bag and lazy jacks made that will be attached to the boom with slides in the boom track.

Most or many slab reefing lines one sees have the reefeing lines going through the reefing cringle and back down to the boom and tied to the boom with I think usually a rolling hitch.

My Question:- Is it necessary to take the lines back down to the boom or can I simply tie the lines to the reefing cringles with a bowline or halyard knot?

def back down to boom at correct position on boom to match reef out haul position

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boty said..
definitely the position of where it is tied to the boom is critical impossible to get foot and leech tension correct if it is in he wrong position

So would the correct position to attach the reefing line be directly in line with the cringle or a few inches aft of the cringle?

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Craig66 said..
I don't think you would be able to get tension on the cringle to keep it down close to the boom. It will pull on an angle to the rear of the boom, so it may flag around a lot and your main would not hold its shape.

^^ This.
I tried it a couple of times, I couldn't tension the leach and the cringle was still flapping about even when fully tensioned.

the attachment point needs to be sufficiently far back from the cringle to flatten the foot of your main, I'd say 6-8 inches.
Get the person who makes your boom bag to make slots for the reef lines.

the attachment point needs to be sufficiently far back from the cringle to flatten the foot of your main, I'd say 6-8 inches.
Get the person who makes your boom bag to make slots for the reef lines.

Thanks for that blackswan.

A reefing line at the aft end of the boom in my book is just a outhaul, bowline onto the reef eylet pull tight and cleat off, then dynemea 1.5 meter wrapped twice Through the eylet around the boom and finished with a Left over right right over left knot. k.I.S.S!

I use the usual slab reefing system to bring the reefed sail to the boom. But for added security, rather than adding another rope to the reefing clue and tying to the boom, i took advantage of the track in the top of the boom and my spare out haul. I made a car for the track that attaches to the spare out haul and carries a hook that hooks into reefing spectacles in the reefing clue. Tensioning the spare out haul flattens the sail and keeps it down on the boom perfectly. Its sort of similar to the way the out haul works on "in mast furling". With this system there is no need to worry about reefing line chafe

^^ I like that one Jolene. I will have a look through my jewellery box and see what bits I have and what I need to buy.

I have never liked the idea of the reefing lines flopping around on the sail.

If you google Selden, they have drawings and advice
cheers Richard

If you google Selden, they have drawings and advice
cheers Richard

I have this Seldon single line reefing system & love it!! Don't have to leave the cockpit.

I have put a reef in running downwind in very sloppy 2.5m swell with no problems at all. :)

As for the original question - if you only had a single line instead of coming back down to the boom you would lose the purchase power & also the sail would not be held down on the boom.

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cisco said..
I have never liked the idea of the reefing lines flopping around on the sail.

I keep my reefing lines just taught enough so as to do no flopping.

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cisco said..
^^ I like that one Jolene. I will have a look through my jewellery box and see what bits I have and what I need to buy.

I have never liked the idea of the reefing lines flopping around on the sail.

Unfortunately I still have the Two fiopping lines for the two reefs. I need them to be able to control the sail whilst hooking the sliding outhaul car to the sail. Whilst going through the set up at the dock and out in a light breeze the car can be hooked to the reefing clew with out much effort but the first time I needed to 2nd reef, with out a rope to the clew I had a hell of a time. After heaps of ginning around I had to drop the main, hook in the clew and tack( 2nd reef), then re hoist the main.
Once the hook is inplace, you can ease the reefing line right off and to shake the reef out, you tension it to hold the clew whilst the out haul car is released.
I have looked at making a double block car to carry the reefing lines so I can do away with the hook,,,It would simplify the bringing down the clew to the boom and attaching to the outhaul car into one operation

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Lazzz said..
I have this Seldon single line reefing system & love it!! Don't have to leave the cockpit.

I have put a reef in running downwind in very sloppy 2.5m swell with no problems at all. :)

As for the original question - if you only had a single line instead of coming back down to the boom you would lose the purchase power & also the sail would not be held down on the boom.

That looks really good Lazzz but I am not seeing how the tack is hauled down,,,,,??

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cisco said..

That looks really good Lazzz but I am not seeing how the tack is hauled down,,,,,??

Does this help??

The boom is a lot longer than in the diagram - my second reef is pretty big & with the moveable plate (shown here in the middle of the boom) set up at the very front & just enough line going to the tack there is still plenty to haul the tack right down tight.

Tack is 1:1, clew is 2:1 more or less!!

I took a photo for you today Cisco while I was out sailing. 3 reefing lines all external to the boom. Yellow is the first reef, blue and white the second and red the third. First reef is fixed but two and three can be adjusted to suit other mainsails in your arsenal. The slide for the 2nd reef is on the other side The sail has to be pulled down and back to get the foot tension right. The tack reef points are on the side of the mast below the boom and these are the "new" Cunningham eyes. On the bottom edge of the stack pack I have sewn webbing straps that hold the slack reefing lines.
The left-hand side cabin top winches are for the clew reefing lines, right hand side is the tack reefing lines. The first reef lines are on the outside of the cabin while the 3rd reef lines are near the centre.

Here is a picture of the outhaul car. I will get around to refining it one day but even as it is, it controls the draft of the reefed sail perfectly whilst sercuring it solidly to the boom.

Thank you everybody for your inputs. A few different systems illustrated.

The main message I am getting is that the clew needs to be hauled DOWN to the boom and adjustably tensioned OUT towards the end of the boom dependant on wind strength and required draught in the sail shape.

Have I got that right?

With what my existing hardware is I believe I have no choice other than going to the mast to attach the tack points to the horns. I will do this with a strop through each clew with rings each side.

For the reefing lines I will set up as per Lazzz's diagram with a saddle or similar a few inches behind the clew points to fix them to positions on the boom providing down as well as out haul.

If I am right off track and talking through my hat, Just tell me.

Attaching the tack to the horns at the gooseneck is a pain. It means you have to leave the cockpit to reef and because the sail could fall off the hooks the halyard has to be at the mast to keep tension on it. If you're at the mast anyway you may as well reef the clew from there as well! This has the disadvantage of never being able to get the correct luff tension in your reefs exactly when you need it most. It's difficult to get correct tension of the luff without a Cunningham eye. This is dumb stuff on a boat that's going to be sailed solo.
I use the normal two-line reefing setup that you will find in the Selden manual. Three reefs. The halyard has three marks on it [ thread stitched in with a tail] that I have that shows just in front of the jammer. When I reef I ease the main then let the halyard down to the mark on the halyard. This leaves the tack reef cringle about 200mm above the sail slugs in the mast track. I cleat off the halyard, winch the clew down and out and cleat, pull in the mainsheet and the wind vane self-steering resumes its course. The heading falls away a few degrees while reefing. Once we are back at speed I winch down the luff with the "new" Cunninham eye. This is the only way you will get a decent luff tension. Just watch the luff as you winch to get the luff to suit the wind. This is the same for all three reefs and done from the cockpit with all the stuff right in front of me. It's the only way you get enough tension on the 3rd reef at a time when you really need that sail flat!

Hiya Cisco,
If the horns for the tack prove problematic, and you're happy going to the mast, put a padeye on the mast, then attach a snapshackle to it. The snapshackle has a short length of 5mm dynnema attaching it to the padeye.
Clip the snackshackle to the padeye when not in use.
Clip the snapshackle to the tack cringle when in use, and use halyard tension against it to set luff tension, much more secure than horns and gives you a better luff tensioning as you can fine tune the length of the dyneema for the optimal cringle position.
I agree with Ramona about using the cunningham for optimal luff tension if you have slugs or for the 1st reef. If you have mainsail cars the halyard should do an admirable job as you have less luff to tension, and the 1st reef tack is still downhauled by the cunningham.
Cheers!
SB
Edit: I should add I use two separate padeyes and snapshackles for the 2nd and 3rd reef points. I have a lot of sail material between the 2nd and 3rd reef, so the padeye for reef 3 is higher on the mast. The cunningham handles the 1st reef.

I fitted a clam cleat on the mast to temporarily hold the main halyard. It's a pain not being able to control it at the mast for any reason.
I statregicly fitted it between the point where it exits the mast and the turning block at the mast step and low enough on that line so when halyard tension is taken up in the cockpit, it pulls out of the cleat and releases. Reef tack spectacles stay on the horns now.

Jolene
I have been thinking of fitting a clam cleat as you have described.
I balked because I was not sure about the location.
My thinking was, if the clam cleat is in line with the line from the mast outlet to the turning block at the base of the mast it can jam as the sail comes down.
I was thinking of mounting it 10 mm offset from the straight line or 5 degrees offset from the vertical straight line. Couldn't decide
You said that you mounted it low. Does that mean just above the turning block and it can't jam in that location?

I read almost every post on Seabreeze and always learn new stuff. Thanks.

gary

The mixture of the two suggested systems, Jolene's and Cisco's is the one l worked out years ago by trial and error to keep the number of reefing lines down to one.
I am talking about a 28 footer, not a big yacht.

A single reefing line, inside the boom cuts down on the clutter, created by 3 reefing lines l would otherwise have.
I don't mind going to the mast to put the tack cringle onto the horn. When the weather is coming a cutter sail is used which is a hanked sail, with Wichard hanks, so l gotta go forward, anyway.

It gives a good opportunity to check everything on and around the mast before the blow.
The tack cringles are fitted with strops and rings.
Main is a 3 reef, fully battened lose footed Dacron cruising sail running on sliders.

The clew is like Jolene's system, running on a sliding boom car except it is held in position by a sliding stopper which is slid to the appropriate, 1,2 or 3 reef position on the boom track, in a second.
When no reefing is required the car is controlled by the main outhaul line.
The single reefing line (6mm spectra) is running inside the boom with a hook attached to it!
This hook is hooked into the appropriate reef cringle in accordance with the boom position and the line put on the boom winch.
The main outhaul, attached to the boom-car, is the second line inside the mast (6mm spectra) and this line with the reefing line gives enough leverage via the boom winch to make the sail flat as a board even in 35-40 knot puffs in third reef.
If necessary, instead of the horn, the Cunningham can be used as an extra adjustment as it has a hook at the end and it can be moved to any tack cringle position in a second. Its fourfold purchase and the line to the winch allowing it plenty of power to do it's job.

The size of the yacht and my 6 feet height allows me to work all the above from the cockpit but the working of the tack cringles and the cutter sail.

Hi Gary,
l should have been a little more specific. Yes l did offset it slightly for the reason you described, 10-20 mm if recall correctly. My main halyard exit is high enough and the turning block on the mast step is far enough stepped out that the tight halyard will be free of the cleat. On the odd occasion whilst lowering the main, the halyard has found its way into the cleat and halted the operation but that is usually caused from interference by the person at the mast.
edit: the cleat is probable 3 feet above the turning block, I'm looking for a picture to post.

It is interesting, that you mention this.

I had an offset clam cleat on the mast and a line running back to the cockpit controlling the spinnaker pole.
When working on the fore-deck l used the offset-fitted cam cleat to control the height of the pole - after letting the cockpit jammer out - and returning to the cockpit just tugged on the line and so dis-engaging the clam cleat secured it with the cockpit jammer.
It worked a treat.