Select to expand quote

es02 said..

Kristo26 said..
I'm still puzzled how my witch has gained over 500lb over everyone else's although she has got an old space sailor trailer and she has got added glass on the inside. Guessing I have one of the first versions too with the one storage compartment on one side and the v berth that wraps all the way round on the other side. Might have weighed a little more, who knows.

Is yours missing a compression post under the mast as well? Might help to explain why mine is set up the way it is.

Yes I noticed that with Stuman's, he does have the compression post.

And nope I don't have one. Instead I've got a big rib bulkhead that wraps overhead and over to each side which actually had to be repaired when it came into my possession. I had a big crack dug out reglassed.

By the way, how is yours setup?


Cheers

Kris

Select to expand quote

Kristo26 said..


Yes I noticed that with Stuman's, he does have the compression post.

And nope I don't have one. Instead I've got a big rib bulkhead that wraps overhead and over to each side which actually had to be repaired when it came into my possession. I had a big crack dug out reglassed.

Without a compression post the reglassed area will either crack again, delaminate from the reinforcing pipe or both. Also if the bulkhead has cracked there is a good chance the plywood reinforcement is also damaged as you'll see in the last couple of pics below.

Does your bulkhead look anything like Stuman's bulkhead above the compression post ? Because that is only a shaped steel pipe covered with a bit of fibreglass cloth to make it look like a heavy duty bulkhead and strong enough to walk on the roof but is absolutely useless without the compression post once you raised the mast. Second pic is what the bulkhead in my Baron looked like on the inside, I was going to clean it up and patch it but decided to pull it apart completely.
Someone did a couple of repairs previously which covered the cracks but did nothing to improve the roof structure or stiffness,
I took it all out and replaced the wood blocks where the pipe ends rest on port and starboard wall with larger blocks and reinforced the walls under them with a few layers of 936gm of biaxial to spread the load over a larger area. I then wrapped fibreglass tape around the pipe (see photo ) so it would never delaminate again and glassed a solid bit of shaped timber in the gap between the pipe and roof to take out any movemenet then covered everything with 3-4 layers of 936gsm biaxial cloth plus two layers of 400gm twill cloth epoxied to the original bulkhead shape. I also added another hardwood reinforcement parallel to the bulkhead about 100mm away to further stiffen the roof and spread the mast load over the largest area possible and covered that in 4 layers of 936gm of biaxial as well.
On the outside I replaced the 10mm reinforcing plywood which was soggy and rotten around the mast foot area with a new 12mm strip of plywood glassed with 2 layers of biaxial and another piece of 20mm thick hardwood on top of that and covered the entire roof with 936gm of biaxial overlapping the centreline and adding another layer on top of that just for good measure.
Despite all that reinforcing the roof still dropped 20mm when I started tensioning the stays so I'm continuing to use a compression mast.





original bulkhead

damaged reinforcement

It's insane to think how much force is applied to such small areas, especially on bigger boats and ships.

Harb that repair is awesome! That's quite top notch work really.

My bulkhead isn't the same as Stuman's. It's definitely a lot beefier.

Hey Kristo can you post a picture of your Bulk head. would love to see the others that are out there.
:)

hoping to get the launching on mine sorted soon as its annoying the way it is.

Select to expand quote

Kristo26 said..

es02 said..

Kristo26 said..
I'm still puzzled how my witch has gained over 500lb over everyone else's although she has got an old space sailor trailer and she has got added glass on the inside. Guessing I have one of the first versions too with the one storage compartment on one side and the v berth that wraps all the way round on the other side. Might have weighed a little more, who knows.

Is yours missing a compression post under the mast as well? Might help to explain why mine is set up the way it is.

Yes I noticed that with Stuman's, he does have the compression post.

And nope I don't have one. Instead I've got a big rib bulkhead that wraps overhead and over to each side which actually had to be repaired when it came into my possession. I had a big crack dug out reglassed.

By the way, how is yours setup?


Cheers

Kris

I have that rib too, and a strange wooden storage area on the port side, I'll try and dig my fridge out of the way tomorrow so I can show you (Mines a messy live-aboard at the moment so getting to some of this is a tad difficult but it'd be interesting to compare as I was initially told mine was mid-80's in build date)

Select to expand quote

Harb said..

Kristo26 said..


Yes I noticed that with Stuman's, he does have the compression post.

And nope I don't have one. Instead I've got a big rib bulkhead that wraps overhead and over to each side which actually had to be repaired when it came into my possession. I had a big crack dug out reglassed.

Without a compression post the reglassed area will either crack again, delaminate from the reinforcing pipe or both. Also if the bulkhead has cracked there is a good chance the plywood reinforcement is also damaged as you'll see in the last couple of pics below.

Does your bulkhead look anything like Stuman's bulkhead above the compression post ? Because that is only a shaped steel pipe covered with a bit of fibreglass cloth to make it look like a heavy duty bulkhead and strong enough to walk on the roof but is absolutely useless without the compression post once you raised the mast. Second pic is what the bulkhead in my Baron looked like on the inside, I was going to clean it up and patch it but decided to pull it apart completely.

I don't have the compression post but I do have what looks like a hefty bit of timber under my mast cross-wise as a reinforcing beam - no cracks that I've been able to spot - I also know that mines been raced in the past so if it was insufficient I'd expect it to show.

Kristo, despite all the extra reinforcements I still need a compression post. Not happy with the factory post but will have to do until winter when I get the boat out and then will be looking to build something more solid and with a larger footprint. Was thinking of making a tripod out of 2" ali pipe and fit it permanently under the mast as I only use that area to keep storage containers and the esky and if I ever get to overnight in the boat I can always sleep in one of the hulls.

Stuman, what ramp do you use that is causing you grief ? If the extension bar is to short how about adding another section to it or build a telescopic extension bar and then maybe use a jocky wheel in the middle and a couple of straps to brace it ? Should give you better control over the trailer then using a piece of wire or strap, specially when pushing the trailer into deep water.
Have you tried the ramp at Woodman Point next to the boat club ? It is a bit further from you but I seem to remember that it had deep water and a steep ramp angle just perfect for floating fixed keelers off the trailer.

Select to expand quote

Kristo26 said..

Yes I noticed that with Stuman's, he does have the compression post.

And nope I don't have one. Instead I've got a big rib bulkhead that wraps overhead and over to each side which actually had to be repaired when it came into my possession. I had a big crack dug out reglassed.

By the way, how is yours setup?


Cheers

Kris

Forgive the mess, I'm still getting things sorted, This (hopefully) gives you an idea of what the reinforcing timber beam under the mast looks like.
Also: Whilst the sails aren't original it's possible the sail numbers were carried over onto the new sail when they were replaced some time in the distant past - if so the sail number was 8.

That Bulk Head looks the same as mine, mine just has the stiffening pole underneath.

hey Harb.
I use the Garden Island Ramps over by point peron, they are pretty good.
My current setup has a swing out extendable draw bar that adds about 5.5m to the trailer length.
This isnt enough when launching with my Subaru, but im sure with a ute it will be.

Still havent had a chance to start work on the winch system yet. :(

I'm a doop, I've gone out to look and then realise it is the same as yours Stuman... sorry. Probably more focused on the stripper pole when I was looking at your witches pics

I've flicked back through and yep they're mostly similar just I've had the rib made thicker on each side. And minus the pole.

To be honest I'd be pretty happy cutting that rib out entirely and starting it again using something else. Glassed marine ply with more surface area or even a prefabricated carbon fibre rib.

Hey Kristo.

I would say a glassed Marine ply Bulkhead would look much classier, its just the interface between the white hull and the plywood that could be hard to make look nice.
I always wanted to redo mine but Time and Money was blowing out so i left it as is. (if it aint Broke)

Maybe plan so you can always add a pole later if you think you need it? (Strong Wind days)

Some more idea....

I don't understand why even with a 5.5m extension on such a steep ramp you aren't floating off, these witches must have deeper keels than I am imagining, SMS me next time you're heading down to Point Peron, I'll take the Red Jacket out for a run also.

I would say it needs a 6.5m extension bar to launch. it needs abuot 1.3m of water but preferably 1.5m to avoid any damage.

Will do jake, might be a couple of weeks now, flat out with work and home work. but soon!!!!! :)

Select to expand quote

Stuman92 said..
I would say it needs a 6.5m extension bar to launch

Stuman, I would add another 3mtr extension hinged to existing extension rather then use cable. I can see how a cable would work when pulling the trailer out but pushing it in deep water specially when the trailer wheel hits a stop or pothole could be a bit tricky without getting wet.

Kristo, any cracking would likely happen in the bulkhead up to 2-300mm either side of that "cabin light" sticker. The Witch has a narrower cabin roof and less flex in the roof then a Baron so it would take a lot more abuse before it would crack. If you don't want a fixed post you could easily make something like the ones on the Baron which is not as solid as the one Stuman has but is better then nothing.
You can see in the pic the original Baron S/steel tube which at top fits in a half depth hole in the timber brace and on the floor it has a screw with a hook welded to it so it holds onto the hulls brace. The only change I did to it was to paint it white as originally was varnished hardwood and gauged a couple of half holes so I can get it to sit over the front mast step nuts as the original mast step had only 2 nuts running longway with the brace fitted tightly between them. I fibreglassed a piece of longer hardwood over that area thinking that I could get away without a brace but still need it so will be looking at building something more solid that I can attach using the 4 mast step bolts. Since the mast base is made of 10mm thick 316 S/s plate I think it should be able to handle the load alright.

Hey Harb

As much as i would like to extend the trailer further, you start running the risk of the extension bar buckling or grinding on the peak of the ramp.

everyone seems to say the strap method always works fine... this is just a modern version of that :)

i will still leave the swing out extension bar on the trailer just incase.

True, buckling and grinding could be a problem on extra long extension bar but that could be bypassed if you hinged the 2 extension bars on a vertical plane and add a jockey wheel at the hinge point so it follows the terrain. Probably not so good for reversing the boat trailer around corners but good enough to push the boat down the ramp.
The strap works just fine if the ramp is good and clear of large rocks or potholes at the deep end and you don't mind getting wet up to your chest when pushing the trailer into deep water to launch and retrieve the boat. Not sure about you but a dip in the ocean before & after each sailing trip would put me off sailing between June-October.

Hahaha yes Cold water tends to Dampen the spirits.

well ill have both systems to launch available. ill look to see if i can make an extension piece for the draw bar. try and add another 1.5m.

Hey Kristo,What does your 'storage area' look like? Do you mind sharing a photo?

So been a while.....

With summer just around the corner i have 2 main projects to do on my RedWitch.

1. Electric Which to lower and raise the trailer up and down the boat ramp

2. Collapsible mast (broke-back)

The first one im pretty happy i know what im doing and it should work fine

The second (Mast) could be interesting.
Here's a Picture to help explain what i want to do.


I was wondering if anybody can see an issue with this?

Any thoughts on the collapsible mast????

Don't see why you would need one on a trailer boat unless you were planning to go under low bridges frequently.
Even then I would probably look at a way to lower the mast in one piece and maybe put an extra joint in the boom if the boom/sail got in the way of dropping the mast far enough.
Besides the fact that it would weaken the mast I think that a collapsible mast hinge would be just another spot to hook and tear your sails and interfere with your jib when tacking.

Ditto.

Are you wanting to speed the boom rigging time?

Ideally it's so I can get under the Fremantle bridge single handed
And so I can raise the mast single handed.

In regards to strength.
If I can brace the lower half to have close to no movement, surely it would have no kids in strength in the upper half? Or am I missing something?

Also any issue with feeding the sail up the channel?

Put a mast hinge in between the deck and gooseneck. Taking your boom off takes no time at all really.

I would suggest making a 'mast skate' and use two identical poles (usually use your spinnaker pole and get one made identical) that attach to the skate and to two rings mounted on plates on the deck beside the cockpit. That way your mast is supported laterally as it is lowered. Many masts been bent while going under the Freo bridges by power boat wake.

Go for a wander around East Freo Yacht Club and you will see this set up.

Select to expand quote

Stuman92 said..
Ideally it's so I can get under the Fremantle bridge single handed
And so I can raise the mast single handed.

from Red Witch Yachting Association,


"Mast height is designed to enable the boat to pass under the Fremantle bridges without lowering the rig - an enviable feature. The simple rigging makes it easy to sail single handed or with young children."

http://websites.sportstg.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-10100-0-0-0&sID=339140

Select to expand quote

Stuman92 said..

If I can brace the lower half to have close to no movement, surely it would have no kids in strength in the upper half? Or am I missing something?

Also any issue with feeding the sail up the channel?

Can't see any issues with feeding the sail slugs as long as the hinge is solid enough to keep the track lined up, even more so if you're feeding boltrope.

As far as lowering and raising the mast single handed I built myself a mast hinge similar to this

www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/Kenyon_Parts/K-1374_assm.php

only I made it out of 8mm & 10mm 316L plate with 8mm pins and the part connected to the mast is bolted and epoxied to the mast. Works a treat and takes seconds to raise or lower the mast on your own. I also reinforced the underside of the cabin so I can lift the mast without the need of a mast cradle or side stays support and once up and pinned the mast can stay on its own while I'm attaching the side and fore stays. Since it can hinge in both directions you can lower the mast either forward or backwards.

The only issue I see with your hinged mast is sails getting torn and maybe the jib sheets getting tangled on the hinge, but a smaller self tacking jib would be one way around that problem.

As above your issue as I see it is the lateral movement. As an alternative you could either build a sliding mast crutch that runs along the mainsail track or fit baby stays, like the McGregor.
I have baby stays that I attach for solo mast raising, I've only used them on shore but could use them afloat.

Thanks for all the advice guys.
my other main reason for considering this is also to make transport easier.
ideally the mast would then sit within the limits of the hull when transporting and not be over height legally for transport.

So if i can get the bottom Piece stiff enough, there shouldn't be to much of a problem?
feeding the sail could be the only main issue?
and Tacking, Maybe a deflector the covers the hinge?

Select to expand quote

Stuman92 said..
my other main reason for considering this is also to make transport easier.
ideally the mast would then sit within the limits of the hull when transporting and not be over height legally for transport.

So if i can get the bottom Piece stiff enough, there shouldn't be to much of a problem?
feeding the sail could be the only main issue?
and Tacking, Maybe a deflector the covers the hinge?

Check with mainroads to see how they work it out on a boat but I think the max rear overhang for light vehicles is 1.2M.


If you can make a tabernacle without sharp protrusions like the one here http://www.marshallcat.com/html/tabernacle_mast1.html then is unlikely you'll need a deflector but feeding the sail may be an issue. You'll also need some rear support for the boom when the mast is down.

Another option to look at would be something similar to this wooden mast tabernacle www.woodenships.co.uk/sailing-yachts/harrison-butler-z-4-tonner/ which would allow you to keep the mast in one piece and avoid any sail feeding issues. Not sure how high that tabernacle would it need to be to keep your mast overhang in compliance with road rules but I guess the same applies for the hinged version.