Select to expand quote

Ringle said..

dreamliner said..
Which waterway are we talking about on the Central Coast

Brisbane Waters

yeah probably less competition , spoilt for choice Lake Macquarie.

Select to expand quote

Ringle said..
I just paid an invoice for my mooring service. The mooring has a 33' yacht on it and sits in a quiet bay in about 12 foot of water

It needed 3m of 16mm chain, 5m of 24mm silver, a shackle, swivel and swivel pin (?), clear PVC tubing and $211 worth of labour.

All up bill incl GST was $607.75.

Does this sound like a reasonable charge?

Seeing I sell all that....
3m x 16mm black chain $66
5m x 24mm Silver (should use polyprop, but OK) $20.00
16mm Black chackle $8.00
18mm Swivel, black $50.00
Clear tubing $5.00

Equals $149.00 plus what ever a swivel pin is!!!
So charging nearly $400 for $150 of parts is just a little over the top

Select to expand quote

rumblefish said..

Ringle said..
I just paid an invoice for my mooring service. The mooring has a 33' yacht on it and sits in a quiet bay in about 12 foot of water

It needed 3m of 16mm chain, 5m of 24mm silver, a shackle, swivel and swivel pin (?), clear PVC tubing and $211 worth of labour.

All up bill incl GST was $607.75.

Does this sound like a reasonable charge?

Seeing I sell all that....
3m x 16mm black chain $66
5m x 24mm Silver (should use polyprop, but OK) $20.00
16mm Black chackle $8.00
18mm Swivel, black $50.00
Clear tubing $5.00

Equals $149.00 plus what ever a swivel pin is!!!
So charging nearly $400 for $150 of parts is just a little over the top

You just proved why we should retire to Tasmania!

Select to expand quote

rumblefish said..

Ringle said..
I just paid an invoice for my mooring service. The mooring has a 33' yacht on it and sits in a quiet bay in about 12 foot of water

It needed 3m of 16mm chain, 5m of 24mm silver, a shackle, swivel and swivel pin (?), clear PVC tubing and $211 worth of labour.

All up bill incl GST was $607.75.

Does this sound like a reasonable charge?

Seeing I sell all that....
3m x 16mm black chain $66
5m x 24mm Silver (should use polyprop, but OK) $20.00
16mm Black chackle $8.00
18mm Swivel, black $50.00
Clear tubing $5.00

Equals $149.00 plus what ever a swivel pin is!!!
So charging nearly $400 for $150 of parts is just a little over the top

wot not galv chain &s/chackle,s 3mts of old 2" anchor chain 10mt poly rope made from oil not out silver with that chain your not going too move

Select to expand quote

oldtom said..

rumblefish said..

Ringle said..
I just paid an invoice for my mooring service. The mooring has a 33' yacht on it and sits in a quiet bay in about 12 foot of water

It needed 3m of 16mm chain, 5m of 24mm silver, a shackle, swivel and swivel pin (?), clear PVC tubing and $211 worth of labour.

All up bill incl GST was $607.75.

Does this sound like a reasonable charge?

Seeing I sell all that....
3m x 16mm black chain $66
5m x 24mm Silver (should use polyprop, but OK) $20.00
16mm Black chackle $8.00
18mm Swivel, black $50.00
Clear tubing $5.00

Equals $149.00 plus what ever a swivel pin is!!!
So charging nearly $400 for $150 of parts is just a little over the top

wot not galv chain &s/chackle,s 3mts of old 2" anchor chain 10mt poly rope made from oil not out silver with that chain your not going too move

English please or closer to it. Cheers!

Just had my mooring inspected ,no maintenance required, in Croudace Bay Lake Macquarie $250
I have it done annually for peace of mind .We only get the westerly winds and a short steep chop apart from that nothing happens in the bay.
Cheers JB

I've had my mooring in Mangles Bay Rockingham for nearly 12mths now. Cost to buy it from the previous owner $3500. Hire fee presumably of the plot of seabed from the Dept of Transport $680 per year. Has to be inspected every 2 years by a registered mooring contractor that is on a list provided by the Dept (about 10 names). Rang 5 today all had answering machines. One has got back to me and said that he services about 80% of the moorings there. Cost of him checking mooring and filling in paperwork $220
incl GST. Then as a rule he replaces the riser, swivel and shackle I think for another $220. So essentially it's $440 every 2 years. Should a riser chain only last 2 years? He said he doesn't normally replace the rope to the boat but if he does it's another $100. I probably need to add that Mangles Bay is pretty exposed to the NW storms that come through from time to time. He also said most of the moorings are 2 or 3 railroad rails driven into the seabed with taut chain between that anchors a riser in the centre. There is a submerged float that keeps the riser off the bottom to minimise damage to the seagrass. He also reckons that the riser wears most in the middle not at the ends and that there is more wear if there is no boat on the mooring.
I would welcome any comments anyone has on this.

Select to expand quote

josusa said..
I've had my mooring in Mangles Bay Rockingham for nearly 12mths now. Cost to buy it from the previous owner $3500. Hire fee presumably of the plot of seabed from the Dept of Transport $680 per year. Has to be inspected every 2 years by a registered mooring contractor that is on a list provided by the Dept (about 10 names). Rang 5 today all had answering machines. One has got back to me and said that he services about 80% of the moorings there. Cost of him checking mooring and filling in paperwork $220
incl GST. Then as a rule he replaces the riser, swivel and shackle I think for another $220. So essentially it's $440 every 2 years. Should a riser chain only last 2 years? He said he doesn't normally replace the rope to the boat but if he does it's another $100. I probably need to add that Mangles Bay is pretty exposed to the NW storms that come through from time to time. He also said most of the moorings are 2 or 3 railroad rails driven into the seabed with taut chain between that anchors a riser in the centre. There is a submerged float that keeps the riser off the bottom to minimise damage to the seagrass. He also reckons that the riser wears most in the middle not at the ends and that there is more wear if there is no boat on the mooring.
I would welcome any comments anyone has on this.

Riser chain?? That's your problem. They wear fast because every wave when the boat is or isn't on the mooring wears links of the chain. Always make my moorings so the rope goes all the way to the bottom at high tide without the boat on the mooring

Select to expand quote

rumblefish said..

josusa said..
I've had my mooring in Mangles Bay Rockingham for nearly 12mths now. Cost to buy it from the previous owner $3500. Hire fee presumably of the plot of seabed from the Dept of Transport $680 per year. Has to be inspected every 2 years by a registered mooring contractor that is on a list provided by the Dept (about 10 names). Rang 5 today all had answering machines. One has got back to me and said that he services about 80% of the moorings there. Cost of him checking mooring and filling in paperwork $220
incl GST. Then as a rule he replaces the riser, swivel and shackle I think for another $220. So essentially it's $440 every 2 years. Should a riser chain only last 2 years? He said he doesn't normally replace the rope to the boat but if he does it's another $100. I probably need to add that Mangles Bay is pretty exposed to the NW storms that come through from time to time. He also said most of the moorings are 2 or 3 railroad rails driven into the seabed with taut chain between that anchors a riser in the centre. There is a submerged float that keeps the riser off the bottom to minimise damage to the seagrass. He also reckons that the riser wears most in the middle not at the ends and that there is more wear if there is no boat on the mooring.
I would welcome any comments anyone has on this.

Riser chain?? That's your problem. They wear fast because every wave when the boat is or isn't on the mooring wears links of the chain. Always make my moorings so the rope goes all the way to the bottom at high tide without the boat on the mooring

Can you do a diagram of one of your moorings please Rumble? Also how much longer would a rope last at a guess?

Select to expand quote

josusa said..

rumblefish said..

josusa said..
I've had my mooring in Mangles Bay Rockingham for nearly 12mths now. Cost to buy it from the previous owner $3500. Hire fee presumably of the plot of seabed from the Dept of Transport $680 per year. Has to be inspected every 2 years by a registered mooring contractor that is on a list provided by the Dept (about 10 names). Rang 5 today all had answering machines. One has got back to me and said that he services about 80% of the moorings there. Cost of him checking mooring and filling in paperwork $220
incl GST. Then as a rule he replaces the riser, swivel and shackle I think for another $220. So essentially it's $440 every 2 years. Should a riser chain only last 2 years? He said he doesn't normally replace the rope to the boat but if he does it's another $100. I probably need to add that Mangles Bay is pretty exposed to the NW storms that come through from time to time. He also said most of the moorings are 2 or 3 railroad rails driven into the seabed with taut chain between that anchors a riser in the centre. There is a submerged float that keeps the riser off the bottom to minimise damage to the seagrass. He also reckons that the riser wears most in the middle not at the ends and that there is more wear if there is no boat on the mooring.
I would welcome any comments anyone has on this.

Riser chain?? That's your problem. They wear fast because every wave when the boat is or isn't on the mooring wears links of the chain. Always make my moorings so the rope goes all the way to the bottom at high tide without the boat on the mooring

Can you do a diagram of one of your moorings please Rumble? Also how much longer would a rope last at a guess?

Sorry, can't scan in a pic right not, but basically I do it like this;

Heavy chain attached to mooring weight, 7-12mm of 32-50mm black chain, depending on boat, depth and swing room, but ideally you want to be able to lift the mooring and get to the top of the heavy chain and low tide.

Smaller chain attached to large chain, about the depth of the water and high tide, 13-28mm depending on boat size.

Rope riser attached to smaller chain, ideally with a swivel between chain and rope. Also preferably 8-plait rope. Rope is long enough so small chain and swivel is always on the bottom when the boat is not on the mooring.
Rope then passed through a large buoy with a spliced loop on top.
We also put a stopper under the buoy so it gets lifted out of the water when the boat is on the mooring, stops the buoy wearing.
If you have to use a certain type of buoy then setup the top appropriately.

We get 5 years out of a rope. Another trick is to make your own thimbles out of solid nylon, last years

Select to expand quote

rumblefish said..

josusa said..

rumblefish said..

josusa said..
I've had my mooring in Mangles Bay Rockingham for nearly 12mths now. Cost to buy it from the previous owner $3500. Hire fee presumably of the plot of seabed from the Dept of Transport $680 per year. Has to be inspected every 2 years by a registered mooring contractor that is on a list provided by the Dept (about 10 names). Rang 5 today all had answering machines. One has got back to me and said that he services about 80% of the moorings there. Cost of him checking mooring and filling in paperwork $220
incl GST. Then as a rule he replaces the riser, swivel and shackle I think for another $220. So essentially it's $440 every 2 years. Should a riser chain only last 2 years? He said he doesn't normally replace the rope to the boat but if he does it's another $100. I probably need to add that Mangles Bay is pretty exposed to the NW storms that come through from time to time. He also said most of the moorings are 2 or 3 railroad rails driven into the seabed with taut chain between that anchors a riser in the centre. There is a submerged float that keeps the riser off the bottom to minimise damage to the seagrass. He also reckons that the riser wears most in the middle not at the ends and that there is more wear if there is no boat on the mooring.
I would welcome any comments anyone has on this.

Riser chain?? That's your problem. They wear fast because every wave when the boat is or isn't on the mooring wears links of the chain. Always make my moorings so the rope goes all the way to the bottom at high tide without the boat on the mooring

Can you do a diagram of one of your moorings please Rumble? Also how much longer would a rope last at a guess?

Sorry, can't scan in a pic right not, but basically I do it like this;

Heavy chain attached to mooring weight, 7-12mm of 32-50mm black chain, depending on boat, depth and swing room, but ideally you want to be able to lift the mooring and get to the top of the heavy chain and low tide.

Smaller chain attached to large chain, about the depth of the water and high tide, 13-28mm depending on boat size.

Rope riser attached to smaller chain, ideally with a swivel between chain and rope. Also preferably 8-plait rope. Rope is long enough so small chain and swivel is always on the bottom when the boat is not on the mooring.
Rope then passed through a large buoy with a spliced loop on top.
We also put a stopper under the buoy so it gets lifted out of the water when the boat is on the mooring, stops the buoy wearing.
If you have to use a certain type of buoy then setup the top appropriately.

We get 5 years out of a rope. Another trick is to make your own thimbles out of solid nylon, last years

Thanks for that info Rumble much appreciated. I will see what the contractor thinks about changing the riser to 8 plait rope. If I could get 5 years I would be rapt. He reckons 2 years for the chain is standard at Mangles Bay. Given that my mooring has railway rails driven into the seabed, would I still need the smaller chain that stays on the bottom with no boat on? I'm thinking just the rope riser to the buoy ( swivel on the bottom and maybe one on the top) then 4m rope from buoy to bow cleat. There is a galvanised thimble on the buoy end of the rope attached to the bow cleat and a shackle just big enough to fit the top of the buoy.
Also the solid nylon thimble? Do you carve it out of a solid block of nylon? Sorry if these questions sound basic but I am a total newbe to moorings and associated apparatus.
My buoy is a beehive type with a moulded eye at the top that is part of the buoy. The buoy below is similar to mine.

Select to expand quote

FelixdeCat said..
My last service (same parts except without the swivel, shackle, pin) was $271 inc GST.

Well I jinxed myself because I just got this years bill and its nearly twice the price of last year. Its in pittwater

1m of 16mm chain = $84
1 x 20mm Shackle = $20
1 x Engineered Swivel = $120
1 x 20mm swivel pin = $24
Labour and Lighter Hire = $190

Total = $481.80

felix I hope you run a bridle on your mooring.

I received this in the mail today with a letter stating the area boating officer is auditing my bay.
I have had mine serviced last month by a contractor. But wondering how you guys who are doing it yourselves can document it? Especially if you don't but any parts?

There are no qualifications to being a mooring contractor. As far as I know you just need an ABN number. Then get your name listed with the Msb or local council. When the Msb bloke checks your boat in the audit you wont be there anyway. They will just park alongside, check the right boat is on the right mooring. Upgrade the Gps marks and check the numbers on your buoy are clear and the buoy is hung in the correct manner.{Nsw}.

I missed adding this it is an extract from the pamphlet.

My mooring needs to be serviced as previously stated. As suggested by Rumblefish I have been looking into changing from a chain riser to a rope riser in the hope of getting more longevity from it. At present the contractor servicing 80% of the moorings where I am has a blanket policy of chain riser replacement at service every 2 years. This is his response to my enquiry.

"Hi John, The section of riser that jingles and wears is necessary due to the tidal depth variance.if we use rope for this section it wears or tangle and leads to failures.In the deep water the moorings have rope risers but they finish short of the bottom and have a suspended chain to connect the ground tackleWe simply cannot certify a mooring with a purely rope riser for this reason and our insurance company wont accept such a design eitherRegards,Derek"

I then tried another contractor and he said that rope risers were prone to getting impregnated with sand and suffering internal wear that is not visible externally. They use chain as it can be easily measured for wear. My mooring is in a sandy/seagrass bottom. It is also only 2.4m deep so maybe this would be an issue. Wondering how many seabreezers have rope risers from mooring with relatively shallow sandy bottom?

Select to expand quote

crustysailor said..
felix I hope you run a bridle on your mooring.

Bridle for anchoring but not for mooring.

The Bridle is really old and I need to replace it. So for now at least its better off on the cross beam :) I leave the bridle attached to the mooring as a secondary backup just in case, but the load is on the crossbeam.

Frankly though even after I replace the bridle lines I will probably still keep it on the cross beam. The boat has such a small wetted area that I dont think its placing much strain on the beam. I can lift it off with one finger.

Select to expand quote

josusa said..
My mooring needs to be serviced as previously stated. As suggested by Rumblefish I have been looking into changing from a chain riser to a rope riser in the hope of getting more longevity from it. At present the contractor servicing 80% of the moorings where I am has a blanket policy of chain riser replacement at service every 2 years. This is his response to my enquiry.

"Hi John, The section of riser that jingles and wears is necessary due to the tidal depth variance.if we use rope for this section it wears or tangle and leads to failures.In the deep water the moorings have rope risers but they finish short of the bottom and have a suspended chain to connect the ground tackleWe simply cannot certify a mooring with a purely rope riser for this reason and our insurance company wont accept such a design eitherRegards,Derek"

I then tried another contractor and he said that rope risers were prone to getting impregnated with sand and suffering internal wear that is not visible externally. They use chain as it can be easily measured for wear. My mooring is in a sandy/seagrass bottom. It is also only 2.4m deep so maybe this would be an issue. Wondering how many seabreezers have rope risers from mooring with relatively shallow sandy bottom?

I have a nylon riser from the bottom chain. Swivel is one metre up the nylon so it keeps clear of the sand. Strong tidal flow, hard sand bottom. Sand destroys chain here.

Select to expand quote

FelixdeCat said..

crustysailor said..
felix I hope you run a bridle on your mooring.

Bridle for anchoring but not for mooring.

The Bridle is really old and I need to replace it. So for now at least its better off on the cross beam :) I leave the bridle attached to the mooring as a secondary backup just in case, but the load is on the crossbeam.

Frankly though even after I replace the bridle lines I will probably still keep it on the cross beam. The boat has such a small wetted area that I dont think its placing much strain on the beam. I can lift it off with one finger.

apologies for the slight thread drift.
Felix, a single mooring line is ok for a normal keeled yacht, but your bridle is more important to help minimise the cat hunting around on your mooring, especially if you have daggerboards and lifting rudder blades and leave the boat with them up when moored.
Securing off onto the crossbeam is ok and it will help if this is out near the hulls.
I have 2 bridle lines that live on the mooring, and connect to front cleat on hulls, as well as a 3rd line which is slightly longer and drops onto the centre bollard. It makes it easier when picking the mooring up, but then the loads are taken by the bridle.

Length of Bridles are about 2.5x beam .
hope this helps.

*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

Select to expand quote

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

Select to expand quote

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

Use flat fire hose over the riser where it goes over the roller. About 50cm is enough. Don't use that clear plastic hose. It's not UV resistant and the edges will go knife sharp and slice through that rope.

Select to expand quote

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

nope, $40 tops.
Reuse the thimble, around 4m of rope from local boat shop, some electrical tape and 1 hour learning to eye splice from youtube.
Rope this size is easy to work with, have a go.

Select to expand quote

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

That rope isn't UV resistant FYI. Are you located in Sydney Harbour?

Select to expand quote

Ringle said..
I just paid an invoice for my mooring service. The mooring has a 33' yacht on it and sits in a quiet bay in about 12 foot of water

It needed 3m of 16mm chain, 5m of 24mm silver, a shackle, swivel and swivel pin (?), clear PVC tubing and $211 worth of labour.

All up bill incl GST was $607.75.

Does this sound like a reasonable charge?

I find that reasonable, swivel itself would have been about $150.

Next years service will be about half that just an LCI really (Lift, Clean, Inspect)

Select to expand quote

woko said..
Mooring contractor qualification ? I can't find any criteria, so we all are potential mooring specialist. Replace the wear parts annually and sign of on the job

Except the fact that they do it day in day out.
Also they know all the measurements to allow for swing room, tides, how much wear chain you should be lifting etc. Know what you are good at (hopefully sailing and boating) and outsource the mooring service for peace of mind.

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

Use flat fire hose over the riser where it goes over the roller. About 50cm is enough. Don't use that clear plastic hose. It's not UV resistant and the edges will go knife sharp and slice through that rope.

Great set up with your fire hose, a neat looking top end you have there!

It looks like your yacht is kept in a relatively sheltered location judging by the shore line and vegetation?

In Sydney Harbour and Pittwater, the bounce caused by wash and open locations - PVC is a must. In many places the moorings are working 24/7/365.

Firehouse will wear through, particularly on a bow roller set up like the one above passing against the stay.

PVC won't wear through, but over the course of 3 - 5 years is does get faded in the sun and crack etc.
But its cheap (like $30) and easy to replace.

This is just a note so people in exposed locations can understand the different attributes of each

Select to expand quote

LadyLuck said..

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

That rope isn't UV resistant FYI. Are you located in Sydney Harbour?

Huh, learn something new every day.

No, she is up at Nelson Bay for the moment, though will be moving down to Sydney later in the year. Which incidentally means very little competition (read none) for the mooring business.

I take it you are a contractor lady luck. Where are you working?

Select to expand quote

LadyLuck said..

Ramona said..

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

knight said..
*sigh* So my mooring was serviced in Jan, cost of $418. Replacements:
- 4.5m of 24mm aquateck rope
- Thimble
- D shackle
- And 2 counts of splicing.

Well the boat got picked up to go up the slip on Monday, and the marina sent me the attached photo of the mooring rope....
Going to be about $200 plus only 6 months later.....
Not overly happy today...

Use flat fire hose over the riser where it goes over the roller. About 50cm is enough. Don't use that clear plastic hose. It's not UV resistant and the edges will go knife sharp and slice through that rope.

Great set up with your fire hose, a neat looking top end you have there!

It looks like your yacht is kept in a relatively sheltered location judging by the shore line and vegetation?

In Sydney Harbour and Pittwater, the bounce caused by wash and open locations - PVC is a must. In many places the moorings are working 24/7/365.

Firehouse will wear through, particularly on a bow roller set up like the one above passing against the stay.

PVC won't wear through, but over the course of 3 - 5 years is does get faded in the sun and crack etc.
But its cheap (like $30) and easy to replace.

This is just a note so people in exposed locations can understand the different attributes of each

It's in the Crookhaven River. Strong current and strong winds with steep waves at times. The blue rope is needed to hold the riser on the bow roller and keep the hose from the forestay. There is also another rope locking the riser on to the bollard so it does not bounce off. The conditions are sometimes very severe, far worse than you will ever get in Sydney or Pittwater. We will often have gale force winds against the tide and yachts sitting sideways shipping waves into the cockpit. Abrasion is the biggest problem here. Leather wont work and PVC lasts for awhile but you have to watch it closely. One nights strong Westerly is enough to slice through a riser once it starts to harden. Anchors on bow rollers and even forestay tangs are also problems.