Ok, I have a tuff-luff and I'm pretty happy with hoisting and dropping headsails on it when single-handed. I don't feel the need for a furler to deal with that problem but..

Managing headsails - especially good quality laminate ones - on the deck is a total pain in the arse. Even rolling them is hard to do, especially after a single-handed sail when I'm pretty knackered.

what are my options? Should I look at getting a Dacron #3 made up?
How hard is it to switch out a furler?

Basically I want to be able to single-hand the boat 3 or four nights of the week in summer and race once a fortnight crewed. The races that matter will only be every couple of months.

I had a furler on a Mottle 33 I had. Taking it off was not easy. It was corroded. But after re-cutting the sail into a proper shape and putting hanks on its was the best thing I ever did. It performed way better, probably 5 degrees pointing improvement, and in a blow was easy to get down and never jammed. But once down and a smaller sail up it was big, puffy and a mess on deck. Especially when wet. In the end if we planned to use it again we would roll it up and lash to the toe rail. But it needs two people to be easy. Im with you JonE, I would love to know a way of handling big sails on deck!

Hi, its an increasingly common issue, sailing short-handed.
You are very much on the right track with your options.
A few options-
Fit a furler, if you're existing sails are suitable, they can be retro fitted to work on a furler. But you will need UV covers fitted, either to the sail or a halyard hoist cover fitted over furled up sail. You may also need a new luff tape fitted if the tuff luff size is different, possibly research this to get some thing that fits and save a few $'s. You may need to shorten luff to accommodate the swivel at head and drum at tack. I am happy to supply ballpark figures for the sailmaking side if you let me know your boat size or make. Note if you wish to sail semi furled, cloth must be suitable to accommodate this. With performance with semi furled sail, you will get similar speed but lose a bit of pointing ability.
Get a smaller Dacron Jib
This is possibly the most economical way to go, but you will lose performance at lower end of wind range and need to put it away each time you use it.
Or buy a new furler, new custom made furling sail with a foam luff pad for better shape partially furled (still not perfect, but better).
And suggested above, doing away with the tuff luff and fitting Hanks is another option, let the halyard go and the sail drops in bow.

On my cavalier 32 I used to own I took off the tuff luff and installed hanks. Certainly made it easier but the gain was minimal in my opinion. Or maybe it wasn't worth the cost of the conversion of each sail

flaking sails was a total pain. Especially anything bigger than the No 3. So in the end I never used anything but the number 3. If I was going out the next day I would just leave it hanked on and tied to lifelines. With the number three I used big clips / clamps to help flake but still a total pain.

now I own a cavalier 395 with a furler and have to say I will never go back... if I had my time again I would spent the 1k I spent on hanks on a furler. Just makes life so so easy when getting out on a regular basis

For my fractional rig I like hanks in preference to Furlers and Foils. I have a couple of carbon sails and its never been a problem to do a reasonable flake and sausage bag them on deck single handed. The hanks usually form a natural flake as I drop the sail into the bag which is tied to stanchions. Drag the bag aft then shuffle the sail luff back so the batons line up on the leach and then roll the sausage into three parts. Despite all this, the flake is not perfect and the sails will take more of a beating then if I was fully crewed ... however I also have some old Dacron sails which I can trash for deliveries.

If you do decide to add a furler take particular care to make sure the furling foil is the right size for your sails, its pretty expensive or a lot of work to change the bolt size.

If you havnt already done so, there might be some useful stuff for you in Andy Evans Single handed sailing book. There is a free version on line some where, but the book is more polished and has more info.

www.dymocks.com.au/book/singlehanded-sailing-by-andrew-evans-9780071836531

Ah ha!!! Great thread guys - thank you.

Until I'd read everyone's post I didn't understand why you were suggesting hanks but now I get it. The hanks make it heaps easier to flake the sail, or even just leave it attached and put a cover on it.

What I won't compromise on is pointing ability, so let's forget furling.

Power isn't an issue - the boat is overpowered very quickly with 1 POB - so the idea of just keeping a #3 - maybe even a dacron one on the boat, bagged up is probably the way I will go.

Getting hanks put on my good quality race headsails wouldn't be horribly expensive either.

Cheers,

Jon

I used to do exactly what Andrew does, however My new boat a Noelex 30 came with a facnor flat deck furler which keeps the jib low to the deck, so far I love it.

My boat is a tender 20 ft masthead rig which I sail solo . I was frustrated in deciding whether a 3 or 2 was the go for the day so explained to my sailmaker where I sail , winds etc. and he came up with a battened px diminsion cut for what I wanted . It's between a 3 and 2 in the foot and a 2 in the luff and its all I tend to use most days. Hanked on with a downhaul so I dont leave the cockpit which I can drop roll up and bag on deck if necessary but usually I let it drop and fold along the toe rail held there by the sheet and downhaul and unhank and roll up back at the marina. I purchased an appropriate sausage bag from sailexchange.

I don't get why furlers are bad for pointing. I don't see any real difference between a nice low profile furling foil and a gemini foil. You can get low drums as well. The IMOCAs and other shorthanded racers usually use furlers so the can't be too much of a bad thing. They pull apparent around to the front and are always going upwind. I have a lovely McDiarmid genoa in laminate that is on a furler and she seems to point fine. At the moment it is down because the boat is not being used. I used to have hanks and changed to furler and there was no difference pointing (never ever ever going back to hanks). But it takes about 10 minutes to get it back up again and is lovely to steer to. You can even put a sock on a nice laminate genoa so you don't have to put the UV strip on the leech. It stays up for a fair bit of time but comes down a lot too. I get it if you want to use different genoas for racing. Maybe the best setup would be halyard lock headsails with torque rope leading to a 5 to 1 under the free luff furler and a lightweight loosish forestay to keep the mast up at anchor. I have this issue with the trailer sailer - so I use the torque rope furler.

This is the set up I am going to use on my cruiser to make sail handling easy for a short handed crew.
65m furling Code Zero to replace the genoa
36m furling Yankee on forestay
12m hanked Staysail/storm jib - going to get a bag made so I can keep it hanked on ready to deploy.

When the zero becomes over powered the Yankee takes over. Neither point really well but both do it well enough for a cruiser.

Also have a 85m furling assy that uses the same furler as the zero.
120m sym spinnaker

Select to expand quote

Kankama said..
I don't get why furlers are bad for pointing. I don't see any real difference between a nice low profile furling foil and a gemini foil.

I'm guessing people with bad pointing are suffering from a badly cut sail.
Maybe too flat so it can be used as a heavy weather jib when partially furled?
Trying to force too much wind range into a sail and getting the worst of both worlds as a result...

I've spent years with Tuff-Luffs and never really found a good way to fold a sail single-handed.

There's a few furlers with removable drums and small-section foils that probably suit your bill really well. You could possibly use an existing older #3 with knockbacks for the drum and head puck for singlehanding and take the furler drum off for races.

Having sailed three boats that were changed from 150% overlap to 105% overlap, I'm sold on small headsails for racing. Yes, you lose maybe 6% of upwind performance in light winds, but working the shifts and wind changes is much more enjoyable, and on many boats the lower rating makes up for the reduced performance.

Mind you I would never consider roller-furling a sail - to get decent performance they have to be either fully unfurled or fully put away. With modern laminates one can get good shape across a very wide range.

The first day I really loved my furler.
We were enjoying a nice sail up the coast and had just changed watches. Weather wasn't bad, 20 knots over the quarter and 1mtr odd swell, some light rain clouds. It's nice sailing. Under white sails, the sail plan is nicely balanced, the genoa and main being pretty much the same area. A bit of attention to the trim and the boat was near driving itself, the chine doing its part just soaking up the occasional gusts.
I'd just stripped off and lay down when I heard that shout. You know the type I mean, one of those shouts that has a sailor bolt upright and reaching for the harness. I was halfway out of the cabin when the first really big gust hit, heeling the boat hard. Now the shouting is markedly picking up in tempo, both the number of voices and the intensity. I popped out of the hatchway to white seas and wind loud enough to reduce communication to hand signals and the merest snatches of words.

It wasn't a pretty sight. 30 degree heel, full main and genoa up, leeward bow pinned, bodies and sheets everywhere, we needed to get some sail down pronto. The genoa sheets being eased, Lydia's got the furler and as the headsail disappears the boat comes right back up on it's feet. The steering comes back, mainsheet comes on, main fills, heel on, chine on then hang on.

Phil's on the helm, he's an owner of a Northshore 38 and a good sailor. The boat is going like a freight train, I turn around to check on him, expecting to see nothing but the utter concentration and white knuckles so deserving of the situation. But instead, he's having a fat time, grinning like a loon, then yelling like a crazy man, pointing at the log as the boat speed pegs 20 knots. We're still under full main, a stub of headsail, wind speed steady in the high 30's gusting 40's, I've no backstay, the sea is a mess of white and yet the boat is just monstering over the waves.
After 10-15 mins of terror intermixed with some champagne sailing, the squall vanished. Some bemused looks at the horizon and at each other over a lack of any damage, then we simply unfurled the headsail and plodded off on our journey at a far more sedately (and welcome) pace.

One good thing, we didn't have to leave the cockpit the entire time.
That was the first day I really, really dug having a furler .

Ah. The compromises we are forced to make.
One quality furling headsail or three quality hank-on head sails.

Need to reduce sail area up forward?
Haul on a furling line and end up with a less than optimal sail shape.

OR, Go below, Drag out a sail bag with a smaller headsail. Drag it forward,. Get it caught as you struggle past the shroud.
Somehow release the halyard, Haul down large the headsail, tie off to lifelines.
Hank on small (well shaped) headsail. Connect sheets.Crawl back to cockpit. Don't forget the sail bag. Oh, **** it just blew over the side. Hoist the small foresail.
A bit baggy because the car is in the wrong position. Trim sail .
All set!!
Looks like the wind has died off. Better put that larger sail back up.

OR release the furling line and haul on the sheet.
Less than optimal shape, but EASY.

Gary

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

Mind you I would never consider roller-furling a sail - to get decent performance they have to be either fully unfurled or fully put away. With modern laminates one can get good shape across a very wide range.

Yep, agree. Not a fan of half furling. The 50m2 genoa on a furler had an upper windrange to about 22-25 knots. HIt that limit and it was furled away completely and forgotten, it's time for the (hanked) little 17m2 staysail on the babystay. I loved that sail, people underestimate how more enjoyable and responsive a boat handles with the barest amount of cloth up.

Im with you shaggy - don't reef a large genoa - furl a 95% er instead and get it away. Then unroll or pull up a little staysail or blade on a torque rope furler - I have a little staysail and when it blows up it goes up (on hanks) on my innerforestay and is bulletproof. I always feel so secure with a reef and the staysail up. Its designed and built for high winds and does a sterling job.

If you are interested in performance there is only one choice and that's a foil. If you interested in safety and convenience then it's a good foil and a well set up furler. If you do Sydney Hobart races it's a removable furler with a second collection of headsails with full-length luffs and a full crew.
I use a furler with a number 2 and would never return to hanks.

OK help me out here.

If I fit a furler can I still use it like a tuff-luff - so long as I don't try and actually furl battened sails on it?

Obviously taking into account adjustments for luff length etc etc...

My take is this, firstly depends on you.
Personally i hate furling headsails as if properly done the cut of the shape needs a lot of return in the leach.
So put a few turns on the furler and you are left with nothing but leach return and the boat goes sideways not forward.
The luff can be sorted with padding in the luff to take out the seam shape as sail furls.
But I am particular about sail shape.
On the flip side on a 43 footer the high end furlex was a game changer as to ease of handling.
But we did spend a bit of time getting the 110% headsail cut right.
So that all worked but not at first.

On Defiance (a smaller boat) I went all hanks.
Usually I will be solo, and fire the halyard and everything falls down and most importantly can't go anywhere.
Also weight aloft is a big issue with furlers unless you are going high end.
I have tried to calculate it but best guess a normal furler set up is over 10 degrees of AVS.
smaller the boat the more the difference.

Going old school, get the sailmaker to put small eyelets in the luff tape between the hanks.
Then get a piece of VB cord about 1m long to thread through the eyelets.
That holds the luff all together when moving the sail around or bagging the sail.

Select to expand quote

JonE said..
OK help me out here.

If I fit a furler can I still use it like a tuff-luff - so long as I don't try and actually furl battened sails on it?

Obviously taking into account adjustments for luff length etc etc...

Yep, sure can. Haven't inspected them all, but if you have a storm brewing and you're parked up, we would simply unfurl and drop the headsail off the furler (Facnor flat deck).it's very much like a tuff luff.

So educate me please. What is the purpose of a Tuff-luff? Is it just a thermoplastic foil to reduce weight?
I think I have seen them used on Trailer Sailers.

Speeds up sail changing.
Well drilling crew can "tack change" and maybe lose one boat length to another boat as breeze freshens or drops.
Just need the skill and the knowledge.

Like peeling kites. (A forgotten skill)

not just trailer sailers, any size will do except 100 footers.

Here is bowman ready to feed a no. 2 up outside of no1. On twin track. Once no 2 up ,on separate halyard he pulls down no 1 . He was pissed with me as I told him to wait till Richard Bennett had taken pics coming in to Hbt. MY feeder was not as refined as these days.

Select to expand quote

lydia said..
My take is this, firstly depends on you.
Personally i hate furling headsails as if properly done the cut of the shape needs a lot of return in the leach.

I don't get why the leech hollow has to be greater in a furled sail. My 95% er looks gorgeous. No limitations I can see for furling. Reefng maybe but that is a different kettle of fish. Battens perhaps, but I don't have heady battens unless they are full length. I get that a large IOR style massive genoa rig will be problematic but if you have a modernish rig then you can do nice things with a 110% to 95% headsail and then get rid of it. Not for full on Grand Prix racing mind but a removable dux inner forestay and a blade jib does everything you want when the wind comes up. It moves back the CE of the heady in more breeze - balancing the reefed main, you can get nice shape and even full battens (I like the full battens in my staysail). What is not to like? My new system (on the drawing board at the moment) has the dux forestay and the larger staysail both moving back to the foot of the mast most of the time. Dux pulled snug against the mast when stored. Furl the big heady and soft hank on the staysail/blade onto the dux is a fine idea. Talk to a rigger about a removable inner forestay - maybe solent style so you don't need runners. Then hunt around for a nice blade Number 3 off a Sydney 38 or whatever in carbon or high tech fabric. You don't blow out your normal heady pushing it uprange, you get great balance and helm in a blow because you pull the heady aft from the bow, and you get great shape from a sail made for uprange. When the wind drops off - unfurl the 95% heady - but if you want reasonable shape you won't ever try it partially reefed. Especially upwind, you might get away with reefing downwind when no one is looking.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
So educate me please. What is the purpose of a Tuff-luff? Is it just a thermoplastic foil to reduce weight?
I think I have seen them used on Trailer Sailers.

IMHO Jules it boiled down to one thing, it had two tracks.
Awesome for changing up and down gears without going bareheaded.

I dont know how common it is, but it's interesting to note furlers can have two tracks also.
The Flatdeck (RX) furler certainly had two bolt rope channels, as long as you have the halyards it'd work fine as a tuff luff.
And the feeder was far better than the tuff luff's pain in the butt little prefeeder stethoscope looking thingammy!
Or that could have been that maybe I just sucked at it :) .

Select to expand quote

lydia said..

Going old school, get the sailmaker to put small eyelets in the luff tape between the hanks.
Then get a piece of VB cord about 1m long to thread through the eyelets.
That holds the luff all together when moving the sail around or bagging the sail.

Lydia - this could be genius - what about getting eyelets punched along the luff of my current (maybe an older one) blade jib.

Could run a furling line through that tied off to the top eyelet and loose through each eyelet all the way down the luff through a turning block and back to the cockpit.

On the drop, you'd just need to make sure the halyard never got let go past the point where the head was in the bottom 6" of track. That way the "furling" line would be under tension and holding the sail in place.

www.amazon.com.au/Grommet-Grommets-Eyelets-Stainless-Clothing/dp/B0B4G6X4V2?th=1

OK, 3rd edit. I reckon it would jam because the blade will want to be pulled from the bottom not the top - unlike hanks.

French are already ahead of you.

Like the lacing in the luff of the mainsail to control depth (not the out haul)

Select to expand quote

Kankama said..

lydia said..
My take is this, firstly depends on you.
Personally i hate furling headsails as if properly done the cut of the shape needs a lot of return in the leach.

I don't get why the leech hollow has to be greater in a furled sail. My 95% er looks gorgeous. No limitations I can see for furling. Reefng maybe but that is a different kettle of fish. Battens perhaps, but I don't have heady battens unless they are full length. I get that a large IOR style massive genoa rig will be problematic but if you have a modernish rig then you can do nice things with a 110% to 95% headsail and then get rid of it. Not for full on Grand Prix racing mind but a removable dux inner forestay and a blade jib does everything you want when the wind comes up. It moves back the CE of the heady in more breeze - balancing the reefed main, you can get nice shape and even full battens (I like the full battens in my staysail). What is not to like? My new system (on the drawing board at the moment) has the dux forestay and the larger staysail both moving back to the foot of the mast most of the time. Dux pulled snug against the mast when stored. Furl the big heady and soft hank on the staysail/blade onto the dux is a fine idea. Talk to a rigger about a removable inner forestay - maybe solent style so you don't need runners. Then hunt around for a nice blade Number 3 off a Sydney 38 or whatever in carbon or high tech fabric. You don't blow out your normal heady pushing it uprange, you get great balance and helm in a blow because you pull the heady aft from the bow, and you get great shape from a sail made for uprange. When the wind drops off - unfurl the 95% heady - but if you want reasonable shape you won't ever try it partially reefed. Especially upwind, you might get away with reefing downwind when no one is looking.

Not talking about leech hollow but the seam shape depth which is usually greater with a furling sail so it gets some performance across the whole range.
It is also to overcome the terrible inefficiency of furling because as you furl you widen the sheeting angle.

Select to expand quote

Bananabender said..
Here is bowman ready to feed a no. 2 up outside of no1. On twin track. Once no 2 up ,on separate halyard he pulls down no 1 . He was pissed with me as I told him to wait till Richard Bennett had taken pics coming in to Hbt. MY feeder was not as refined as these days.

Harsh, going for the outside hoist with an overlapped already loaded.

No changing strop either.

What is the boat a Bounty 35

Ha Yes Bounty. Great dry boats . Just bad luck the no. 1 was on the inside track but they don't call it adventure land for nothing.

Select to expand quote

lydia said..

Not talking about leech hollow but the seam shape depth which is usually greater with a furling sail so it gets some performance across the whole range.
It is also to overcome the terrible inefficiency of furling because as you furl you widen the sheeting angle.

There's some talking at cross purposes going on here. Kankama and I are talking about furling sails that are either all the way out, or completely furled; they are never part furled. As you say, there are very different issues when using a sail that is rolled up as a form of reefing.

My 105% furling jib is getting within 1% or so (ie within the accuracy of measuring from pics) of the same depths as Norths etc recommend with a multi-headsail quiver for the same hull, and with the vertical reef in it looks pretty damn good as a #4.

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

julesmoto said..
So educate me please. What is the purpose of a Tuff-luff? Is it just a thermoplastic foil to reduce weight?
I think I have seen them used on Trailer Sailers.

IMHO Jules it boiled down to one thing, it had two tracks.
Awesome for changing up and down gears without going bareheaded.

I dont know how common it is, but it's interesting to note furlers can have two tracks also.
The Flatdeck (RX) furler certainly had two bolt rope channels, as long as you have the halyards it'd work fine as a tuff luff.
And the feeder was far better than the tuff luff's pain in the butt little prefeeder stethoscope looking thingammy!
Or that could have been that maybe I just sucked at it :) .

My foil on my NS38 furler has two tracks although I have never done a peel as I sail single-handed and don't care if I lose a few minutes. Mine is aluminium so is this what is being called a Tuff-luff or is that just a trademark for one particular brand? Is it only a Tuff-luff if not on a furler?

Presumably I could also fly two headsails simultaneously downwind but that sounds like a recipe for an unholy mess. Would be pretty stable without the main although with a 7/8 rig it probably wouldn't be worth losing all that sail area anyway.

Messing with it while underway single-handed or even two-handed sounds like a an easy way to send a sail over the side. I just leave my 105% on and suck it up on day sails if the wind drops. If it's gets windy I have three reefs in the main and that's where all the sail area is with a long boom and a tall 7/8 rig.

I did swap it out for a larger Genoa on an offshore trip overnight once when I had someone else competent on board and it was going to be a broad reach all the way which proved to be the right choice and quite exhilarating. Generally it's too much of a pain to swap headies and I hate reefing with the furler with any headsail if I'm anywhere near on the wind.