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r13 said..
Sorry to hear of your experiences. We have had excellent service from numerous so called "little guys" in Sydney over the years as regards new sails, repairs and modifications. "Little guys" obviously have their reputation to preserve even more than the "mail order" operators, for obvious reasons. Please support your local sailmaker just as you support your local slipway.

Sorry tried the little guy got burnt. He's in Yamba not Sydney

I well know from your prior posts who and where the sailmaker is but clearly your post text slagged "little guy" sailmakers Oz wide.

By the way I would never have imagined that any sailmaker providing a quote would have expected that their quote document provided in good faith specific to a one-off enquiry would have been posted on a forum. I would expect that their quote document would include such covenant legal text.

I am not a sailmaker.

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r13 said..
I well know from your prior posts who and where the sailmaker is but clearly your post text slagged "little guy" sailmakers Oz wide.

By the way I would never have imagined that any sailmaker providing a quote would have expected that their quote document provided in good faith specific to a one-off enquiry would have been posted on a forum. I would expect that their quote document would include such covenant legal text.

I am not a sailmaker.

Yes I appreciate this is a very sad situation that I cannot buy Australian but I have already lost a lot of money.

Normally I would always support Australian made and I particularly despise China and all that stands for.

I always bought Australian cars whilst they were available and even in my recent posts on here regarding winches I tried to raise awareness of Hutton winches and the fact the owner of Australian Winch Sales impressed me.

I am sure that there are great conscientious and ethical small Australian sailmakers but I have only one other friend with a yacht and I do not race and I'm not a member of any clubs. As such I do not have access to any word-of-mouth which would enable me to determine whether a sail maker is any good or not.

Indeed this forum is the closest I have to a yachting friend network.

Obviously this thread was started by somebody else trying to get a grip on who can produce a good quality sail because it is a very expensive minefield .
Getting new sails is an infrequent event for a cruising sailor such as myself and and because of this the sailmaker has all the power and superior knowledge in the transaction. The only power we have is if we stick together and advise each other. That is what I am trying to do. I don't see anything wrong in posting quotes and it was done at the request of another member and sailmakers should not be ashamed of their quotes. I would love to have gone with the sailmaker who replied and whose quote was quite competitive but unfortnately I have no way off knowing his reputation.

It's not like either of the sailmakers quotes I posted were doing me any favours giving me Mates Rates which they didn't want publicised. As far as I'm concerned it's rather like me posting that one particular Ford dealer quoted me one price on a car whereas another Ford dealer quoted better. This is the way that consumers protect each other against people to have far more power and knowledge if consumers don't band together.

Having been burnt once I was very pleased to receive comments on the quotes about aspects that I may not have appreciated.

Naturally I will report back whether the sail is any good or not in due course.

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julesmoto said..
Bit the bullet and ordered a jib from Far East after a terrible experience with a small OZ sailmaker. Will only use big name brand sailmakers now rather than little guys. The name brands have a reputation to preserve and more likely to supply replacement sail if they stuff it up. Not impressed with having to buy two sails to get one! Let's see how this one goes.

If it's not right they will be happy to change it you will just have to pay the freight to China & back. I know the sail maker you're eluding to his reputation is for good sails but not particularly inexpensive. r13 is right the little guys have more to be concerned with reputation than a powerhouse in China, your order would be a drop in the ocean to them.

Previous owner of my boat purchased it through a major Aus yacht sales agency. It needed new sails. The rep he was dealing with recommended FES. Over the past decade I've purchased one new main plus various sail repairs & mods made by two different local Sydney sailmakers and one in regional Vic. All were great to deal with, efficient and on time.

I have a main, 5 years, & a staysail, 2 years, from FES & am very happy with them.

However, I have had mods done by this bloke & am very happy with his work.

www.saildesign.com.au/

He's in Lake Macquarie & he is very busy!!

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woko said..

julesmoto said..
Bit the bullet and ordered a jib from Far East after a terrible experience with a small OZ sailmaker. Will only use big name brand sailmakers now rather than little guys. The name brands have a reputation to preserve and more likely to supply replacement sail if they stuff it up. Not impressed with having to buy two sails to get one! Let's see how this one goes.

If it's not right they will be happy to change it you will just have to pay the freight to China & back. I know the sail maker you're eluding to his reputation is for good sails but not particularly inexpensive. r13 is right the little guys have more to be concerned with reputation than a powerhouse in China, your order would be a drop in the ocean to them.

Yes but the little guys are after every penny. To the big guys the cost of making you a new sail is nothing. It's like returning something to Kmart. They would rather maintain their good reputation and the cost of returning something from you or giving you a new one is peanuts to them. Little guys don't even have the sail cloth in-stock.

Yes you are right about the return cost. I'll just pray it's right first time. Heaven knows they make enough of them. I wouldn't try it with a mainsail as there are too many parameters but with a simple jib all they have to do sew in accordance with the program and size- no luff hardware or battens to get wrong.

Interestingly and as an aside a friend of mine just got a new mainsail from Rolly Tasker who did bugger up a few things but the sail seems much more heavy duty than mine (reefing, tack and clew eyes and reinforcement)and is the same size. Furthermore both are tri radial but his has way more panels. Probably the same amount of cloth but I guess if you are paying some guy 5 bucks an hour to sew in SE Asia it's no big deal to add more panels and get a better shape.

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Lazzz said..
I have a main, 5 years, & a staysail, 2 years, from FES & am very happy with them.

However, I have had mods done by this bloke & am very happy with his work.

www.saildesign.com.au/

He's in Lake Macquarie & he is very busy!!

Thanks :)

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julesmoto said..

Obviously this thread was started by somebody else trying to get a grip on who can produce a good quality sail because it is a very expensive minefield .

Just to be clear, I started the thread out of pure curiosity. There is a plethora of posts on the net of people saying "I've just received my new sails and I couldn't be happier", but there was noting on the net about how they felt some time on when the excitement wore off and with a few years/miles on the sail.

The whole anti Chinese manufactured thing though is BS... My kids were given cheap Chinese made RC cars. They lasted a few hours. I have a cheap Chinese made electric drill and it's lasted me 16 years or more. The chuck got a little loose and wobbly about 3 years ago but still gets used. So it really seems to me to be a case of Caveat Emptor .

Would have I considered a new sail from FES? Yes. But what I found interesting due to this thread, were the two quotes once currency was converted to AUD. The savings in the end become negligible on the current (todays) exchange rate. Certainly if you had to return the sail you would likely be behind and with the current freight delays be without a sail for 6 months or more. When MB et al. got their sails 5-10 years ago it may of been a different story.

Genoa from Rolley Tasker, 4 years on still happy with it.

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woko said..

julesmoto said..
Bit the bullet and ordered a jib from Far East after a terrible experience with a small OZ sailmaker. Will only use big name brand sailmakers now rather than little guys. The name brands have a reputation to preserve and more likely to supply replacement sail if they stuff it up. Not impressed with having to buy two sails to get one! Let's see how this one goes.

If it's not right they will be happy to change it you will just have to pay the freight to China & back. I know the sail maker you're eluding to his reputation is for good sails but not particularly inexpensive. r13 is right the little guys have more to be concerned with reputation than a powerhouse in China, your order would be a drop in the ocean to them.

Well I got the sail from Far East and because of my total ignorance of sail cloth at the time it is dark grey not white which is not a big deal just a surprise.
All I did was tick racing in the box and that is what they quoted me on. I don't race but I am particular about my sail trim and after the bad experience of a curling leech on the Australian sail I had made I wanted to try and ensure a good shape. Anyway when I put the FE sail up I noticed that it had a few little delamination spots where it had been folded both horizontally and vertically as of course sails must be to be put in a bag. I complained about this suggesting that they should have put some foam or something the packaging to prevent tight folds with transport companies sitting heavy stuff on top.
After initially apologising and explaining that the problem wasn't too serious and that they would extend the warranty I requested a new sail or my money back. They offered a new sail which is currently in production. I have only used the sail once now but the second time I put it up I decided that these few spots weren't such a big deal and a little circular patch would have solved the problem if indeed there was one. I guess I would have to say that I have been pretty impressed as the sail was fairly cheap and it is made of fairly expensive dimension-polyant PX cloth. It certainly doesn't curl in the leech like my locally made one. Obviously however all local sailmakers should not be tarred with the same brush but this is my experience.

Now for an asymmetric Spinnaker about 13.5 m luff with sock :-). No rush so will look second-hand 1st.

I have had two genoas and a storm sail made by FES, and at the same time over the last 5 years a main and assy build by Barracouta and UK sails. The FES was always a inferior product in comparison and the FES last genoa was missing two eyelets for the piston hanks. The draft line wasn't stitched down. When I mentioned the faults they sent me eyelets, punch and $50 refund. My FES sail bags have always self destructed within 6 months.
I will always work with a local sailmaker in the future, even though they may cost a little more its better fit and finish leaves a smile on my dial.

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EastCoastSail said..
I have had two genoas and a storm sail made by FES, and at the same time over the last 5 years a main and assy build by Barracouta and UK sails. The FES was always a inferior product in comparison and the FES last genoa was missing two eyelets for the piston hanks. The draft line wasn't stitched down. When I mentioned the faults they sent me eyelets, punch and $50 refund. My FES sail bags have always self destructed within 6 months.
I will always work with a local sailmaker in the future, even though they may cost a little more its better fit and finish leaves a smile on my dial.

I too have used Barracouta, and found Neil to be a great guy to deal with.

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julesmoto said..

woko said..

julesmoto said..
Bit the bullet and ordered a jib from Far East after a terrible experience with a small OZ sailmaker. Will only use big name brand sailmakers now rather than little guys. The name brands have a reputation to preserve and more likely to supply replacement sail if they stuff it up. Not impressed with having to buy two sails to get one! Let's see how this one goes.

If it's not right they will be happy to change it you will just have to pay the freight to China & back. I know the sail maker you're eluding to his reputation is for good sails but not particularly inexpensive. r13 is right the little guys have more to be concerned with reputation than a powerhouse in China, your order would be a drop in the ocean to them.

Well I got the sail from Far East and because of my total ignorance of sail cloth at the time it is dark grey not white which is not a big deal just a surprise.
All I did was tick racing in the box and that is what they quoted me on. I don't race but I am particular about my sail trim and after the bad experience of a curling leech on the Australian sail I had made I wanted to try and ensure a good shape. Anyway when I put the FE sail up I noticed that it had a few little delamination spots where it had been folded both horizontally and vertically as of course sails must be to be put in a bag. I complained about this suggesting that they should have put some foam or something the packaging to prevent tight folds with transport companies sitting heavy stuff on top.
After initially apologising and explaining that the problem wasn't too serious and that they would extend the warranty I requested a new sail or my money back. They offered a new sail which is currently in production. I have only used the sail once now but the second time I put it up I decided that these few spots weren't such a big deal and a little circular patch would have solved the problem if indeed there was one. I guess I would have to say that I have been pretty impressed as the sail was fairly cheap and it is made of fairly expensive dimension-polyant PX cloth. It certainly doesn't curl in the leech like my locally made one. Obviously however all local sailmakers should not be tarred with the same brush but this is my experience.

Now for an asymmetric Spinnaker about 13.5 m luff with sock :-). No rush so will look second-hand 1st.

Looks like a chafe factor from being dragged across something when folded?
But this is the reason I suggested as a sailmaker of 45 years that PXB Lite Skin was not a cruising cloth. Something more durable and chafe resistant would be better suited to a high cut yankee.
PXB Ls is a great cloth for club racing and the short coastal hop is OK. But it won't be a sail that gives you decades of use!

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Galatea said..

julesmoto said..

woko said..

julesmoto said..
Bit the bullet and ordered a jib from Far East after a terrible experience with a small OZ sailmaker. Will only use big name brand sailmakers now rather than little guys. The name brands have a reputation to preserve and more likely to supply replacement sail if they stuff it up. Not impressed with having to buy two sails to get one! Let's see how this one goes.

If it's not right they will be happy to change it you will just have to pay the freight to China & back. I know the sail maker you're eluding to his reputation is for good sails but not particularly inexpensive. r13 is right the little guys have more to be concerned with reputation than a powerhouse in China, your order would be a drop in the ocean to them.

Well I got the sail from Far East and because of my total ignorance of sail cloth at the time it is dark grey not white which is not a big deal just a surprise.
All I did was tick racing in the box and that is what they quoted me on. I don't race but I am particular about my sail trim and after the bad experience of a curling leech on the Australian sail I had made I wanted to try and ensure a good shape. Anyway when I put the FE sail up I noticed that it had a few little delamination spots where it had been folded both horizontally and vertically as of course sails must be to be put in a bag. I complained about this suggesting that they should have put some foam or something the packaging to prevent tight folds with transport companies sitting heavy stuff on top.
After initially apologising and explaining that the problem wasn't too serious and that they would extend the warranty I requested a new sail or my money back. They offered a new sail which is currently in production. I have only used the sail once now but the second time I put it up I decided that these few spots weren't such a big deal and a little circular patch would have solved the problem if indeed there was one. I guess I would have to say that I have been pretty impressed as the sail was fairly cheap and it is made of fairly expensive dimension-polyant PX cloth. It certainly doesn't curl in the leech like my locally made one. Obviously however all local sailmakers should not be tarred with the same brush but this is my experience.

Now for an asymmetric Spinnaker about 13.5 m luff with sock :-). No rush so will look second-hand 1st.

Looks like a chafe factor from being dragged across something when folded?
But this is the reason I suggested as a sailmaker of 45 years that PXB Lite Skin was not a cruising cloth. Something more durable and chafe resistant would be better suited to a high cut yankee.
PXB Ls is a great cloth for club racing and the short coastal hop is OK. But it won't be a sail that gives you decades of use!

Oh well longevity won't be an issue now as I will have two identical sails from FES plus the original local one which I have had modified making three identical size jibs. Will take me a while to wear through all three of those! Expensive lessons learned.

Just just ordered an asymmetric from Sail Exchange. On their website it seems you can only get white but send a query and when they get back to you it turns out you can have any colour scheme you like so I ordered one and I will report back. They are even considerably cheaper than Rolly Tasker or Far East so it will be interesting to see what turns up. Challenge Fibermax 44 cloth so at least that must be ok.