now that I'm going down the road of getting a reefer furler, I'm also thinking it might be nice to have the option of a hanked sail As well. I've been racking my brain and thought of this scenario as an option. Basically an inner forestay that connects about 2 thirds up the mast and is stowed when not in use, ie shackled at the bottom of the mast To keep it out of the way on the foredeck. Limited room up there anyway on a Tophat. I'm also thinking of a self tacking system for this to limit sheets, and not have to have more cars.
Am i dreaming or is this a possibility? I think if it was set up right it would work really well potential maybe to be a great set up.

Hi SS
I have been thinking similarly,but not acting.
Cavalier 32 with furler
How to set up storm jib?
"Gale sail"?
Inner forestay,with furling storm jib,hanked on jib???
Use spinnaker tl and beef up with spectra???
Forestay should go close to masthead,or need additional support (those backstays again!)
A shipwright suggested just putting up forestay for those ocean/Bass Strait voyages,and remove for sailing arounr the Bay(Port Philip)
Lots of options,lots of info on web.

I would be most interested in hearing from more experienced sailors on this one too!

Although I've been told by furling.com owner that the furler will handle gales, it makes sense to have some sail pressure closer to the mast as well.
i like the idea of the self tacking system, but you also wouldn't have to use it. It's just setting up a track and it would be fairly out of the way.

I've done a lot of thinking and googling on this recently, having realised that by the time the winds were up past about 25 knots it would be near impossible to drop the furling foresail and fit the storm jib, especially soloing as I do. The solution seems to be a "Solent Stay", and I suggest you search on this.

I'd like to install one, but honestly can't justify it for the amount of time I expose myself for the conditions under which it would be used.

Cheers, Graeme

I agree with you wongaga, by the time you think about hanking on the storm jib, it's probably blowing up too much to do it safely.
SS, if you are going to fit a furler for your headsail, why not reef it? Unless of course you just want the forestay to strengthen your mast.
It seems to work for me.

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wongaga said..
I've done a lot of thinking and googling on this recently, having realised that by the time the winds were up past about 25 knots it would be near impossible to drop the furling foresail and fit the storm jib, especially soloing as I do. The solution seems to be a "Solent Stay", and I suggest you search on this.

I'd like to install one, but honestly can't justify it for the amount of time I expose myself for the conditions under which it would be used.

Cheers, Graeme

But you could have the hanked sail already fitted stowed on deck? Youd have to go to the mast to unsecure it it that's it.

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NowandZen said..
I agree with you wongaga, by the time you think about hanking on the storm jib, it's probably blowing up too much to do it safely.
SS, if you are going to fit a furler for your headsail, why not reef it? Unless of course you just want the forestay to strengthen your mast.
It seems to work for me.

Yes you're right. I thought it might be nice to have the option of having an inner forestay/hank sail set up. Even as a back up in case sone thing happened to the furler . the furler I'm getting sounds rock solid though. Might be a pointless exercise. what about beating to windward in swell with a reefed head sail but also a storm jib on the inner forestay to help you punch through. Could be good :)

MB has an inner forestay on which I hank a storm jib as a stay sail. When I'm not using it, it only goes on when going offshore, I attach it to the toe rail near the shrouds and lash it yo the shroud about head height.
It does make tacking difficult as the heady won't fit in the space between the inner and outer stays. You need to furl it in, tack, and let it out.
I put a second sheet block on the track and use the spinnaker winches.
We have had some difficulty figuring out the best way to use it and I'm now confident in it.

And MB how doyou like the boats performance with this system deployed? Yes I thought you'd have to pull theGenoa in before a tack.
worth having? I'm thinking the same thing too. Only have the forestay on when needed.

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Sectorsteve said...
And MB how doyou like the boats performance with this system deployed? Yes I thought you'd have to pull theGenoa in before a tack.
worth having? I'm thinking the same thing too. Only have the forestay on when needed.

It works well. I fitted the stay when we put the furler on. If I had known how well the boat would sail with the headsail furled at 50% I probably wouldn't have put on the inner stay but now it is there I use it both as a stay sail to increase the canvas forard and as a storm jib. Just furl the heady in as the wind increases until the StJ is all that is left.
The inner stay and halyard cost me about $800 from Joe Walsh.

Hi SS,
This is how my rig is setup, roller furler on forestay, and detachable inner forestay with hanked sails.
The innerforestay is dyneema, and lashes to the base of the mast when not in use. Clips on in seconds, It is tensioned from the deck via cockpit winch, hard point on the mast.
They staysail has a tailored bag so it can be hanked on still in the bag till you're ready, open the bag and hoist.
The sheets run through the same low friction rings on the barber haulers with no fouling of the furled headsail sheets.
Performance is terrific!

That sounds awesome shaggy. I though as much.....I'm now leaning towards this system and not getting the furler...I've realised you can have the storm jib hanked on as you do, whilst flying #1 or 2 with a downhaul connected. bungies permanently up forward, netting on lifelines at the bow. I've realised that you'd only need to go forward to stow the number 1 under the bunguy and could probably do that from the forward hatch in the cabin.

Remember it is not about reducing sail area it is about moving the centre of effort in the rig.

On the last boat the topping lift was moved up to just below the inner forestay fitting and the inner forestay was dyneema with the topper as staysail halyard.
Staysail was hanked on.
just remember to get oversize hanks so they run up and down the dyneema easily.

:) Using the halyard as a topping lift is pretty neat. And yes to the hank size, I have a sleeve over my lower section on the inner forestry , and the lowest hank on the staysail can be too tight to run, or undo.

SS, I remember listening to one of the maxi guys saying they need down hauls on the luff to reef the mainsail when they're powered up, they're generating so much power!

Heh Shaggy,
impressive system,seems that would also work for 40 yo Cavalier!
how do you attach forestay,ie clip it on?
Mast attachment too,near masthead?
couldnt follow photos that well
please make allowances for older brain

Heh Shaggy,
impressive system,seems that would also work for 40 yo Cavalier!
how do you attach forestay,ie clip it on?
Mast attachment too,near masthead?
couldnt follow photos that well
please make allowances for older brain


joecoopersailing.com/short-handed-sailing-the-solent-stay/ seems similar

Shaggy,
further qn re low friction rings?
more info please
can substitute for blocks???

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Sectorsteve said..

NowandZen said..
I agree with you wongaga, by the time you think about hanking on the storm jib, it's probably blowing up too much to do it safely.
SS, if you are going to fit a furler for your headsail, why not reef it? Unless of course you just want the forestay to strengthen your mast.
It seems to work for me.

Yes you're right. I thought it might be nice to have the option of having an inner forestay/hank sail set up. Even as a back up in case sone thing happened to the furler . the furler I'm getting sounds rock solid though. Might be a pointless exercise. what about beating to windward in swell with a reefed head sail but also a storm jib on the inner forestay to help you punch through. Could be good :)

you can rig two sails on the Alado furler Steve.

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scaramouche said...
Heh Shaggy,
impressive system,seems that would also work for 40 yo Cavalier!
how do you attach forestay,ie clip it on?
Mast attachment too,near masthead?
couldnt follow photos that well
please make allowances for older brain


joecoopersailing.com/short-handed-sailing-the-solent-stay/ seems similar

Hi Scara, I'll try to find a photo of the knuckle that attaches the babystay at the base.
This is the mast fixing point.The dyneema babystay is lashed to this.
[URL= .html]

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scaramouche said...
Shaggy,
further qn re low friction rings?
more info please
can substitute for blocks???

Yes, this is a replacement to the block on your jib car. The red sheet is my headsail, and we run a second staysail sheet through the same ring. it doesn't seem to be bothered with having three ropes through the ring at the same time , the blue barber hauler adjuster, the headsail red sheet (shown) + the staysail sheet (not shown).
[URL= .html]

I have seen a few where you put the ring on a line and bring this back through the jib car then cleats off somewhere. The Jib sheet goes through the ring back to the normal winch.

Here you go Scara,
The bottom of the babystay is a splice (white/blue).
The lower rope is also spliced (grey)
The weird looking knuckle threads over the lower splice, through a hole in the centre.
The lower splice (grey) passes through the splice in the babystay (white/blue) and loops back to drop over the ears on the knuckle.
Tension the lower rope (grey) through a jammer onto a cockpit winch.
Voila!
This is below the first hank on the headsail, ie: almost on the deck when tensioned.

I had a furler on a Mottle 33 and twice it jammed right when we decided to pull it in because of high wind and couldn't. Possibly a knee jerk reaction but I took it off and put hanked sails on because I decided never again to be stuck with a jammed furler and hence full genoa in high wind and go with the KISS principle - a hanked sail that will always drop on demand.

But stowing the sails below uses up lots of space and if they are wet "she who must be obeyed" will complain about the wet bed up front. Saving space below is the only advantage I can think of for having a furler now, and I guess unfurling is easier than hauling up head sail as well. But after I took the furler off, put hanks on its old Genoa and re cut it to have proper draft the boat sailed noticeably better.

I was surprised to read about the worry of putting the storm jib up. Sometimes theres no choice. Its better to get soaked while hitching it up than have no steerage at all. If you are harnessed on you wont fall off.

Self tacking a small jib is cool. I sailed on a PR25 a few times that had that. KInd of like driving an automatic car versus a manual

I think on a small yacht it's not really worth the bother. By the time the weather has forced you down to a partially furled headsail, the fore deck is the last place you want to be. I have tried the staysail and storm jib thing and I'm convinced the routine for me is once I'm down to the 3rd reef in the main then its either a foot or so of headsail or fully furled. Mainsail down to the 3rd reef drives her well at about the closes reaching position. After that I'm guessing bare pole and sail cover/stackpack. The sail cover alone drives her in flat water! I would suggest a practice day in heavy winds and see what is needed.

There are various storm jib arrangements available that haul up over a furled headsail with rollers etc but they seem like a lot of bother and don't rate well in reviews.

Ramona, out of interest , on your boat is your third reef in the main equivalent to a trysail? Or do you find you still benefit from a trysail still?

Mb
as your boat is a mast head like mine did the rig need any strengthening? Did you have to reinforce the deck?

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Trek said..


I had a furler on a Mottle 33 and twice it jammed right when we decided to pull it in because of high wind and couldn't. Possibly a knee jerk reaction but I took it off and put hanked sails on because I decided never again to be stuck with a jammed furler and hence full genoa in high wind and go with the KISS principle - a hanked sail that will always drop on demand.

But stowing the sails below uses up lots of space and if they are wet "she who must be obeyed" will complain about the wet bed up front. Saving space below is the only advantage I can think of for having a furler now, and I guess unfurling is easier than hauling up head sail as well. But after I took the furler off, put hanks on its old Genoa and re cut it to have proper draft the boat sailed noticeably better.

I was surprised to read about the worry of putting the storm jib up. Sometimes theres no choice. Its better to get soaked while hitching it up than have no steerage at all. If you are harnessed on you wont fall off.

Self tacking a small jib is cool. I sailed on a PR25 a few times that had that. KInd of like driving an automatic car versus a manual

It's lil stories like like this that worry me about furlers. my number 1 is also a 2. Reefs well. The 3 & 4 are tiny really and take up no space. In fact there's Room in the anchor locker for them. I'm lovin the idea of a stay sail though. I feel that this would give me a lot of options and limit time on Foredeck. im a bit afraid of superfluos things and I put a furler in this category. I guess I haven't made my mind up yet. Inner forestay for sure, reefer/furler still undecided.

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Ramona said..
I think on a small yacht it's not really worth the bother. By the time the weather has forced you down to a partially furled headsail, the fore deck is the last place you want to be. I have tried the staysail and storm jib thing and I'm convinced the routine for me is once I'm down to the 3rd reef in the main then its either a foot or so of headsail or fully furled. Mainsail down to the 3rd reef drives her well at about the closes reaching position. After that I'm guessing bare pole and sail cover/stackpack. The sail cover alone drives her in flat water! I would suggest a practice day in heavy winds and see what is needed.

There are various storm jib arrangements available that haul up over a furled headsail with rollers etc but they seem like a lot of bother and don't rate well in reviews.

Couldn't agree more. My third reef with reinforced patches brings the main down to the size and strength of a storm trysail and at that point there is no way I will be crawling up to the foredeck. Racing rules require a storm jib but I have never seen one that did much and inner forestays, baby stays et al just make tacking a pain.

Steve I have sailed a lot on both and as I said at the start non furling is definitely faster. Ask your self why do most cruisers have furlers? Because it is easier. Not faster but a lot easier as for the baby stay my opinion is find out what MB has had to do for strengthening as I have asked him and also talk to a rigger. It is something I am now considering after this thread. Shaggys boat has been designed for his setup a boat not designed for it could being the rig down void insurance and if the mounting on the deck is not strong enough rip it right out.
it is not as though a tophat is a speed machine you are racing therefore in my opinion a furler and a sail on the baby stay would be perfect for cruising.
Also did you receive the pm i sent you with the charcoal magma?

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twodogs1969 said..
Steve I have sailed a lot on both and as I said at the start non furling is definitely faster. Ask your self why do most cruisers have furlers? Because it is easier. Not faster but a lot easier as for the baby stay my opinion is find out what MB has had to do for strengthening as I have asked him and also talk to a rigger. It is something I am now considering after this thread. Shaggys boat has been designed for his setup a boat not designed for it could being the rig down void insurance and if the mounting on the deck is not strong enough rip it right out.
it is not as though a tophat is a speed machine you are racing therefore in my opinion a furler and a sail on the baby stay would be perfect for cruising.
Also did you receive the pm i sent you with the charcoal magma?

Mb got joe Walsh to do his and I'd no doubt do the same. Online I've read people connect a chain plate onto the bulkhead between the anchor Locker and cabin. I wouldn't wanna risk doing it myself, as much as I love DIY, it's just not something you wanna stuff up. Shaggys got a bag made for the stay sail that enables you to hank on but still have the sail stowed in the bag, that's secured by the mast. Mb also has second cars on the track for the stay sail. I don't think I'd have a problem with strength, pressure on the rig , as the boats over rigged, but I'll leave that call to a rigger who knows what they're talking about as I do not. Strength of the boat is not something I wanna mess with To save a few dollars.
i still haven't looked up the magma bbq. Thanks for that and I promise to have a look straight after this movie!

Those bbqs are awesome. I've seen them on boats before. think I should get one as the weber tends to rust. I'd imagine the magma is stainless.

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twodogs1969 said..
Mb
as your boat is a mast head like mine did the rig need any strengthening? Did you have to reinforce the deck?

I should start off by saying that MB is a most over rigged and over engineered boat so has inherent strength. If your boat is more lightly made this might not apply, some of the masts on round the cans boats are like matchsticks, but the principle is still right.

If you google it or talk to a few riggers you will find that provided the inner stay is attached to the mast within 10% of the outer stay you won't need extra mast support. MB's mast is about 12 metres tall, my inner stay is about 60-75 cm below the outer stay, so about 5-7% below the outer stay. It has never bent or pumped.

Before I had my inner stay fitted I spoke with Kim Swarbrick who assured me the anchor locker bulkhead could easily take the strain. So far it has without difficulty.

I would hope a competent rigger/engineer wouldn't install it if it wasn't strong enough.

As I noted in an earlier post, a good furler and a sail made to suit it might mean you don't need an inner stay. MB can sail in high winds with the heady furled. It won't point at 50-55 degrees but it will still point at 70 degrees. It will be a very rare event that you are close on a lee shore in winds high enough that 70 degrees won't get you away. And maybe you shouldn't be there.

I think the case for or against the necessity of furlers has a lot to do with whether you have a good one already or you don't. Nobody who has a good one will do without it. Those who don't have a good one need to spend a fair whack of $$$ to get one so will obviously not be easily convinced and will have arguments against them.

Boat performance is, to me, the least of the arguments against a furler for a cruiser. MB doesn't lose much with the sail furled as compared to a hanked on sail. Cruisers get the best boat speed with minimal effort and what is lost to a partially furled sail is nothing. More is lost in other rig tuning that you ignore because you are too busy chatting or reading or sleeping or watching the waves or throwing up.

The posts here for and against furlers also seem to depend on where you sail. If coastal cruising where you might get caught out occasionally and would normally not have to battle the elements for very long, the consequences of the hazards of being on the foredeck are reduced. If you sail where you are days from shore the consequences of foredeck mishaps are much more serious.

The foredeck is a dangerous place to be in high winds and big seas on a short handed small boat. Going over the side is only one hazard. Getting knocked off your feet and dragged into solid fittings, losing your footing and suffering broken limbs and cuts and while getting wet is at the least uncomfortable, if it happens time after time it becomes dangerous.