I am looking at upgrading to a bigger bluewater cruiser. I want something in the 42-46 ft range for proper bluewater cruising with the family. I have been looking at yachts and our budget dictates we are looking at a 1980-1990 boat (130-150k).

I know that steel gets rust, alloy gets corrosion, wood gets rot, and glass gets osmosis, and its all about how they have been kept and maintained.

There are a number of nice boats that tick most boxes (they are all a compromise in some respect) but I have always steered away from strip planked with glass over (and inside in some cases) as I see this as no better than cored. This judgement has not been based on any bad experiences other than having owned a glass over foam race boat.

Are there any construction methods (as a method, not based on the competence of the builder as this goes for any method) that you would steer away from before thinking about how it was built?

Keen to hear from the brains trust here

Also if anyone wants to buy a 2003 Jeanneau Sunfast 37...

Hi draly. There are guys on this forum that will certainly give their opinion. For my two bobs worth. I reckon
Americans build boats right. I am impressed with the Island Packet, a really solid large boat. Just sayin'.

At the age you are looking at in glass osmosis will probably be there to some degree. As was told to me when I purchased my boat with osmosis in it no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis. It is not the death sentence as it use to be thought of. Mine was repaired properly 2.5 years ago and no sign of it coming back.
Have you looked at this one?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/warwick-46-deck-saloon-cruising-yacht/208641

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twodogs1969 said..
At the age you are looking at in glass osmosis will probably be there to some degree. As was told to me when I purchased my boat with osmosis in it no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis. It is not the death sentence as it use to be thought of. Mine was repaired properly 2.5 years ago and no sign of it coming back.
Have you looked at this one?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/warwick-46-deck-saloon-cruising-yacht/208641

That is definitely a beautiful boat and now is on our list. Downside is the bolt on keel.

I agree that a proper osmosis treatment can resolve any issues and I wouldn't write off a boat with a small amount of osmosis, you just need to get to it relatively quickly

This is the boat I have been thinking about with respect to the glass over strip plank. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/atkinson-45-foot-centre-cockpit/205111

Nice boat been for sale for a long time and in Malaysia. If interested would go in very low ball first offer.
It would also be a bolt on keep.

One's plans and desires would weigh in the balance.
Planning to circumnavigate, go to coral infested waters, rocky shores, Alaska, Antarctica, aluminium hull, no doubt.

Fiberglass, depends who laid it and what kind they used, like Vinyl Ester Resin does not have osmosis problems.

Timber? Hmm. Not in the tropics.

Steel, hmm. It's an option.

Concrete? Why?

How about a Halberg Rassy or it's ilk if one got plenty of time and fond of big heavy keels.Definitely not bolted on!

One could pick one up in the states for peanuts with plenty left over for refitting?

For ease of sail handling, why not a ketch, yawl or schooner?

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dralyagmas said..

twodogs1969 said..
At the age you are looking at in glass osmosis will probably be there to some degree. As was told to me when I purchased my boat with osmosis in it no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis. It is not the death sentence as it use to be thought of. Mine was repaired properly 2.5 years ago and no sign of it coming back.
Have you looked at this one?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/warwick-46-deck-saloon-cruising-yacht/208641

That is definitely a beautiful boat and now is on our list. Downside is the bolt on keel.

I agree that a proper osmosis treatment can resolve any issues and I wouldn't write off a boat with a small amount of osmosis, you just need to get to it relatively quickly

This is the boat I have been thinking about with respect to the glass over strip plank. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/atkinson-45-foot-centre-cockpit/205111

Not all older boats have osmosis. I had MB soda blasted about 6 years ago and there was no sign of osmosis anywhere in the hull.
My sister has a Valiant 40. It is a lovely cruiser but the boats built after 1976 suffer from osmosis due to the resin used. However, the Valiant 42, same boat with a bowsprit, is osmosis free.

Island Packet are great but expensive.

Ease of short handed sailing would be a priority for me in a boat that size. Manhandling the main or genoa will be a challenge.

Is it Draly or Dr Aly?
www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/cavalier-45/208460

A bit on the pricier side, but we looked her over earlier this year - at Lincoln - ask Southace if interested.

rob

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Concepcion said..
Is it Draly or Dr Aly?
www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/cavalier-45/208460

A bit on the pricier side, but we looked her over earlier this year - at Lincoln - ask Southace if interested.

rob

Sam will do.

that Cavalier is #1 on my list but with >6000 hours on the motor Is screaming for a rebuild or replacement and it's already past our price point.

there is also a Bowman 47 yawl in Lincoln which is #1 on the wife's list, but again back to the original question regarding glass over wood. My concern on that one is it's probably very slow and I want a boat that can do 200 Nm days under the right circumstances. That is the racer in me coming out

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Concepcion said..
Is it Draly or Dr Aly?
rob

read the whole name backwards ... all will be clear

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MorningBird said..

dralyagmas said..

twodogs1969 said..
At the age you are looking at in glass osmosis will probably be there to some degree. As was told to me when I purchased my boat with osmosis in it no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis. It is not the death sentence as it use to be thought of. Mine was repaired properly 2.5 years ago and no sign of it coming back.
Have you looked at this one?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/warwick-46-deck-saloon-cruising-yacht/208641

That is definitely a beautiful boat and now is on our list. Downside is the bolt on keel.

I agree that a proper osmosis treatment can resolve any issues and I wouldn't write off a boat with a small amount of osmosis, you just need to get to it relatively quickly

This is the boat I have been thinking about with respect to the glass over strip plank. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/atkinson-45-foot-centre-cockpit/205111

Not all older boats have osmosis. I had MB soda blasted about 6 years ago and there was no sign of osmosis anywhere in the hull.
My sister has a Valiant 40. It is a lovely cruiser but the boats built after 1976 suffer from osmosis due to the resin used. However, the Valiant 42, same boat with a bowsprit, is osmosis free.

Island Packet are great but expensive.

Ease of short handed sailing would be a priority for me in a boat that size. Manhandling the main or genoa will be a challenge.

Thats right MB. Although Trek is a 1990 when we took the antifoul back expecting to find osmosis there was none at all. I guess if the antifouling is kept in good shape and you dont hit anything and create cracks theres no reason why it should have any. But sun damage on the gel coat is a problem, I would like to know how deal with that.

Hi Sam,
Our boat Yvonne is cedar strip planked epoxy out & in. Local built. Before I bought her I checked history of builder, boat etc, got a specialist survey and so on. I also checked with multiple builders and websites - usual stuff - forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/139855-epoxy-over-cedar-strip-planking-what-to-look-for-in-a-used-boat/
We haven't had a problem with hull, and I don't expect one - perhaps that's luck. We've used and I've probably abused her - hit things, anchor, dock etc. What I did notice is that all construction experts have their preferences. Some will swear by others loath. What convinced me in the end was worst case scenario - if timber core is exposed to water - it is mostly easily repairable - probably much more so than other construction types (not all). On the upside you've got strength/durability etc. but all this does sound a bit like conviction bias! I'd have "The Doctor" in a heart beat - ps Loose Change I'm sorry you missed my attempt at humour.
rob

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Concepcion said..
Loose Change I'm sorry you missed my attempt at humour.
rob

Such is the lack of nuance in text messages, no biggie I've made bigger stuff ups in my life

One thing to remember is that any boat that is not fiberglass is likely not a production boat built by a known manufacturer.
This can make it more difficult to insure. Especially in the age you are looking at. There will be exceptions but something to check out before pulling the trigger.

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GlennGee said..
One thing to remember is that any boat that is not fiberglass is likely not a production boat built by a known manufacturer.
This can make it more difficult to insure. Especially in the age you are looking at. There will be exceptions but something to check out before pulling the trigger.

another thing to remember is production boat means built to a price with profitability in mind whereas one off build for a discerning buyer buy a reputable builder often means built without budget in mind to the highest possible spec

As far as the insurance maffia is concerned, they repeatedly ignored my input about the manufacturer of my yacht. It was a small company not a production-line type monster. The buggers simply put down 'unknown' into the appropriate column despite my repeated call to list the known manufacturer. They said, 'there is no listing of such company in our records!??? (so what?)
I had no repercussions - as far as l know - about this fact, like being penalised in the premium or so, however l could not be sure what their undisclosed or secret guidelines are.
Nevertheless - it is obvious even to Blind Freddy - the yacht was carefully designed by Adams and Radford in the late seventies and built extremely well in the late eighties, much better, according to sailors, riggers, shipwrights or other professionals who come into contact with it than any production yacht of the era, the insurers are utterly ignorant about this facts.
They are primarily profit seeking, looking after their own interest, NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. Period.

I am surprised what l read recently about boat insurance in the US.
It is so expensive for cruisers who roam the high seas on limited budgets that most are sailing without full insurance.

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Trek said..

MorningBird said..

dralyagmas said..

twodogs1969 said..
At the age you are looking at in glass osmosis will probably be there to some degree. As was told to me when I purchased my boat with osmosis in it no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis. It is not the death sentence as it use to be thought of. Mine was repaired properly 2.5 years ago and no sign of it coming back.
Have you looked at this one?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/warwick-46-deck-saloon-cruising-yacht/208641

That is definitely a beautiful boat and now is on our list. Downside is the bolt on keel.

I agree that a proper osmosis treatment can resolve any issues and I wouldn't write off a boat with a small amount of osmosis, you just need to get to it relatively quickly

This is the boat I have been thinking about with respect to the glass over strip plank. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/atkinson-45-foot-centre-cockpit/205111

Not all older boats have osmosis. I had MB soda blasted about 6 years ago and there was no sign of osmosis anywhere in the hull.
My sister has a Valiant 40. It is a lovely cruiser but the boats built after 1976 suffer from osmosis due to the resin used. However, the Valiant 42, same boat with a bowsprit, is osmosis free.

Island Packet are great but expensive.

Ease of short handed sailing would be a priority for me in a boat that size. Manhandling the main or genoa will be a challenge.

Thats right MB. Although Trek is a 1990 when we took the antifoul back expecting to find osmosis there was none at all. I guess if the antifouling is kept in good shape and you dont hit anything and create cracks theres no reason why it should have any. But sun damage on the gel coat is a problem, I would like to know how deal with that.

I wonder about vinyl wrap above and below the water line


I wonder how window tint would survive on the side of a hull above the water line

If Cisco had his done he might go with this on the side

Been looking at the Halberg Rassys lately. Seem like tough,well built glass yachts with a good layout.

But 37 is huge anyway. Went on a HR 38 yesterday and it was massive. Thinking of a 31 for a couple for us (my wife thinks it's too big and prefers the 29!)

I'd go glass with a solid, reliable keel attachment. You don't want to be hauling it out every time you touch the sand.

Cheers
Bristle

I think #1 would be absolutely NO bolt on keel as has been said above. When blue water cruising sooner or later you will hit something and you want to know for sure the boat wont break and capsize instead of wondering if the keel bolts are ok,

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Trek said..
I think #1 would be absolutely NO bolt on keel as has been said above. When blue water cruising sooner or later you will hit something and you want to know for sure the boat wont break and capsize instead of wondering if the keel bolts are ok,

sooner or later ? in morteon bay there are to types of sailors those that have gone aground and liars

Bolt on keel is not something that I am keen on, however I will note that the later model Hallbery Rassy's eg: HR42F have a bolt on keel http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/fileadmin/user_upload/HR42FStandardSpecEng.pdf. These seem be be in many people's eyes the epitome of bluewater yachts. Is this a standard type bolt on keel or are they referring to an encapsulated keel with additional keel bolts for reinforcing?

Perhaps if you read the specs sheet it would answer those questions. There is a plethora of data about HE's on the net.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with bolt on keels as long as they were designed and built properly.

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sirgallivant said..
Perhaps if you read the specs sheet it would answer those questions. There is a plethora of data about HE's on the net.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with bolt on keels as long as they were designed and built properly.

Spec sheet states: "Lead keel with reinforcement bolted on with 15 S/S bolts". If you understand this with more clarity than my question above please enlighten all of us.

I think amel super maruma are also bolted on keels.
They are the bees knees for long distance blue water cruising.

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twodogs1969 said..
I think amel super maruma are also bolted on keels.
They are the bees knees for long distance blue water cruising.

Yes, they look like awesome cruising boats. Their spec's suggest a keel stub with bolts, so my my unlearned mind that is a small keel with a bolt on bit at the bottom?

Dear Sam. It's ok.
I think you aversion to bolt on keels are developed by bad press and misunderstanding of the facts.
I am not here to defend the concept of bolt on keels, l am simply trying to help you not to dismiss perfectly well built yachts on the bases of personal aversion to something perfectly good, proven and serviceable.
I own an Adams 28 with a bolt on keel of some 1600kg.


I had two mishaps, one in Canaipa Passage and the second one when l tried to relocate Spectacle Island. Nothing happened, a scratch in the leading edge, that's all.
The cruisers, designed by a reputable designer are strong enough to suffer a lot of abuse while the modern designs with nothing in mind but performance or profit are the culprits of the bad press.
Most of the yachts hauled out and or stored, are standing on their keels and lots of them are bolt on keels. Most of them, in fact.
There is the shoal draught with daggerboard like this one, which is not a bolt on design,



The traditional 'English keel'

Keel bolts on this Oyster were fine, lamination of the grid to the hull maybe not so.

....the phone froze on me...

The 'English keel'
or bilge keel is also bolted on if l am not mistaken.

For blue water sailing any deep keel will do unless one is planning to cruise in coral infested Qld.

The ability to sail into the wind is one of the brawbacks of the full keel design with the sluggishness of the keel bolted rudder and the prominent prop walk of the same design. However, hitting something big and staying afloat is most likely with this type of keel.

The bolt on keel, as long as it is a conventional design with good lift/drag characteristics without any fancy appertures like wings or huge ungainly bulbs, which would act as anchors on the keel if caught by rocks or fishing nets, overloading the keel bolts, should go a long way without any problems if built properly.
This old thread might be of interest:

Bolt on keels are fine if you are prepared to draw the bolts every 5 or 6 years. There is not enough oxygen getting to the stainless steel to form the thin surface skin needed to stop pit corrosion. The expensive but permanent fix is to fit monel keel bolts with bronze nuts.