I agree, Charriot - training movie.

I also agree with this guy ( wavetrain.net/2013/11/22/hold-fast-best-sailing-movie-ever/ ) - loved Hold Fast. Actually, I should watch this again.

We had a team viewing of ?ll is Lost"at the sommerville last night. Collective thoughts went from oh sheet! to that's not realistic to boredom. They should cut 30min from it.......

While keeping in mind that it is a Hollywood story, I do find it interesting what some people call BS. For example, I was watching Battleship with my old man recently who is RAN retired after 20 odd years. At the end of the movie he said:

"I've done my fair share of RIMPAC exercises, and I don't ever remember seeing an officer on the soccer field". To which I asked him "what about all the aliens? At what point Dad, did you stop believing it was real".

Well apparently a Commander playing soccer next to a Able Seaman at RIPAC was too much for him. He didn't like the movie......

The

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DrRog said..

I agree, Charriot - training movie.

I also agree with this guy ( wavetrain.net/2013/11/22/hold-fast-best-sailing-movie-ever/ ) - loved Hold Fast. Actually, I should watch this again.

I googled that movie once.....the best thing about the movie is that dude got two chicks alone on that small boat.....haha

Toph, two of the best soccer players on HMAS MELBOURNE in the 70s were a Sub Lieutenant and a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant was playing in Navy teams until he paid off as a Commander. I played rugby and cricket as a junior officer :)

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MorningBird said..

Toph, two of the best soccer players on HMAS MELBOURNE in the 70s were a Sub Lieutenant and a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant was playing in Navy teams until he paid off as a Commander. I played rugby and cricket as a junior officer :)

I'm not sure which ship dad served on in the 70s. Think he changed between the Swan or Tobruk and Brisbane and Perth (definitely the Perth in 74/75 when in major refit in the States) but he was never on the Melbourne. I also have no doubt that the officers played good soccer, but did they mix with the enlisted folk? I know a few in the Navy these days and it seems a lot more liberal with fraternising between the two, but I was under the impression it wasn't always like that.

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Toph said..

MorningBird said..

Toph, two of the best soccer players on HMAS MELBOURNE in the 70s were a Sub Lieutenant and a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant was playing in Navy teams until he paid off as a Commander. I played rugby and cricket as a junior officer :)

I'm not sure which ship dad served on in the 70s. Think he changed between the Swan or Tobruk and Brisbane and Perth (definitely the Perth in 74/75 when in major refit in the States) but he was never on the Melbourne. I also have no doubt that the officers played good soccer, but did they mix with the enlisted folk? I know a few in the Navy these days and it seems a lot more liberal with fraternising between the two, but I was under the impression it wasn't always like that.

Of course they did, who do you think made up the rest of the team. First thing you were asked when joining a new ship was what sport do you play. Some sports were better than others, basketball or golf could get you extra privileges. I sailed a Snipe in Japan in the '60's against sailors and officers from other nations. Friend of mine now deceased was the sailing master on the navy's Sydney Hobart entry one year. I can't remember whether he was a Leading hand or a petty officer at the time. He was in charge although one of the officers in the crew was officially the skipper.

A tongue in cheek comment Toph. Some mixed, some didn't. Some sailors didn't want officers around, some did. We learned early on that there was no rank in sport. I sailed on Navy yachts with sailors as skipper. I played cricket with HMAS SYDNEY the FFG under a LSSTD and mixed with the team socially as did the other two officers in the team. That was 1984. I expect it was different on different ships at different times.

Who goes at sea with no Epirb? But then again the movie would have been very short like: OMG I hit a seacontainer, oh crap, water is coming in the cabin.Switch the Epirb on............... look rescue is there! Coast guard as it is USA! The end!

Are you sure about swift rescue like that.
There are different rescues too.

Australia Day Sunday arvo,
Family with kids left Keppel Island in open dingy.
Swell 2-3 m, gusting 25 knots.
Half an hour later, the boat upside down, family in the water.
No boat around to be seen, father gets under the boat and find and activate EPIRB.
First hour gone, Cambera sent a chopper and informed local rescue .
They both start searching.
Two hours gone, still family not found.
Search area is 15 miles, Geat Keppel to Yeppoon
but their EPIRB is old one, there is no GPS locator build in.
To locate them become nightmare.
Local rescue, dusted off old hand held radio locator.
Wrong search area, family left North Keppel Island, they miles away from
current search area. Chopper was guided to new search area.
Three hours later, family was rescued by chopper.

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Charriot said..

Are you sure about swift rescue like that.
There are different rescues too.

Australia Day Sunday arvo,
Family with kids left Keppel Island in open dingy.
Swell 2-3 m, gusting 25 knots.
Half an hour later, the boat upside down, family in the water.
No boat around to be seen, father gets under the boat and find and activate EPIRB.
First hour gone, Cambera sent a chopper and informed local rescue .
They both start searching.
Two hours gone, still family not found.
Search area is 15 miles, Geat Keppel to Yeppoon
but their EPIRB is old one, there is no GPS locator build in.
To locate them become nightmare.
Local rescue, dusted off old hand held radio locator.
Wrong search area, family left North Keppel Island, they miles away from
current search area. Chopper was guided to new search area.
Three hours later, family was rescued by chopper.

Just my point have a new recognised and authorized EPIRB on board as per current laws (in WA anyway). Do not complain if you have to wait to get rescued if you are not complying to safety, it is up to you! And even that they got rescued at the end, if he had a good EPIRB on the yacht (even an old type) he would have been rescued within 24h!
Also you must be asking for trouble to go in a small dinghy in 3-4m swell and 25KNt gusts surely! Cant help stupidity!

While a GPS EPIRB is better than one without, rescue services are highly likely to find you with a non GPS one.
Having done numerous SAR in fixed and rotary wing aircraft and being a qualified SAR Mission Coordinator I think it necessary to allay concerns of those with non GPS EPIRBS. The standard EPIRB accuracy of 5km gets the search area down enough to conduct a successful search . The standard GME MT400 and I expect other non GPS EPIRBS have a homing transmitter, on 121.5Mhz, for search aircraft to home to you. If you have flares and dye marker they are very likely to find you without having to home to you.
If you don't have a GPS EPIRB don't panic. It is an improvement and if buying a new one get GPS. If you have a standard one you will still have a very high probability of being found and rescued. Combined with all the other probabilities of getting into trouble, abandoning ship successfully, getting into your raft, getting the EPIRB activated etc etc .

The big problem we had in NSW and I'm sure its the same in other states is the advertising from the government telling everyone there old 121.5Mhz Epirb will not be effective from a certain date. They lied. Even the new GPS Epirb utilizes 121.5Mhz for homing in. As far as I am aware 121.5MHZ is still one of the emergency frequencies. As soon as you set it off, any commercial A/C with in line of sight will acquire the signal and act upon it.

About 18 months ago mate of mine was recovering his set line off the coast here. Helicopter appeared off his stern with a crewman hanging out the door pointing to the phone number on the side. He rang them and assured them he did not need rescuing! Apparently on the way out in the rough conditions he fell upon his old 121.5 Epirb and set it off. In this case the delay in the rescue was about an hour. He has since updated the Epirb for survey.

also if you happen to have your VHF radio on and can transmit a DSC signal it will send your exact co-ordinates if it is connected to your GPS/chartplotter (and setup of course)

Acknowledgement of a signal and it's accuracy is one thing. Getting an asset capable of rescue or at least a life raft drop is a completely different equation. If you are in AMSAs jurisdiction - it could take hours to get to you.

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Ramona said..

The big problem we had in NSW and I'm sure its the same in other states is the advertising from the government telling everyone there old 121.5Mhz Epirb will not be effective from a certain date. They lied. Even the new GPS Epirb utilizes 121.5Mhz for homing in. As far as I am aware 121.5MHZ is still one of the emergency frequencies. As soon as you set it off, any commercial A/C with in line of sight will acquire the signal and act upon it.

About 18 months ago mate of mine was recovering his set line off the coast here. Helicopter appeared off his stern with a crewman hanging out the door pointing to the phone number on the side. He rang them and assured them he did not need rescuing! Apparently on the way out in the rough conditions he fell upon his old 121.5 Epirb and set it off. In this case the delay in the rescue was about an hour. He has since updated the Epirb for survey.

Ramona, my understanding is that the satellites are no longer picking up the signal therefore AMSA is not capable of monitoring 121.5Mhz anymore. So 121.5 is reliant on overflying aircraft. It use to be regulations for only oceanic aircraft to monitor 121.5 (might still be) but there is a lot of ocean not covered by commercial flight routes.

A commercial aircraft would only be able to detect a signal and notify ATC if it was getting weaker or stronger indicating whether they were flying away from or towards a beacon. They may be asked to intiate a search but aren't obliged to as they normally run on min fuel requirements.

New GPSs in the scheme of boating are dirt cheap. Yes an 'old' GPS is better then nothing, but there really is no excuse in not having a 'new' 406 GPS these days.


Briefly back on topic, I've watched this movie now and it reminds me of the movie Phone Booth. An hour and a half of dribble. I did find it somewhat thought provoking in what I would do in similar situations.

One thing is hard to understand, you 8 miles from the harbour with commercial and rescue base,
activate EPIRB and still takes 3 hours to be rescued
What sort of technology we put in place!

121 Mhz is implemented in all EPIRB, I was told.
It is very weak, very directional signal, last 48 hours.
You need receiver with small (about .5 m) yagi aerial attached.

Charriot, there are sound reasons for the delay. The rescue services have to ascertain the validity of the epirb received, the majority aren't emergency activations. Time is spent confirming that it is a rescue situation not an inadvertently activated device. They have to try to contact the point of contact for the epirb. Once they have confirmed the activation is most probably real they then have to locate appropriate search resources (ships, aircraft, Marine Rescue etc), brief them and get them out on the search. Very few places have vessels and crews sitting around waiting to rescue you. All that takes time. With a bit of transit time 3 hours seems about right.

If you are 8 miles off the coast a mayday is your best option to get local services involved. They can talk to you directly and effect a rescue quickly. If you haven't got a radio, or it is likely to be swamped because you are in the kitchen sink in the ocean, you shouldn't be there or expect to be rescued.

121.5 is not directional. You don't need an aerial, the epirb is transmitting it.

121.5 isn't monitored by satellite anymore but may be by aircraft and ships. I have just spoken to a mate who was an A380 Captain with Cathay and part time instructor with Qantas (Killer to Ramona). He advises that airliners usually would monitor 121.5 but it isn't guaranteed. (Cathay do when practicable, Qantas may or may not) If one is near you they might pick it up but they can't home to it. Ships and RESCUE aircraft home to it.

A 121.5 epirb cannot be relied on for anything in the modern world. 406 epirbs should be carried by those venturing offshore.

When combined with everything else in the SAR chain a 406 epirb has a very high probability of effecting a rescue. A GPS 406 epirb does increase the probability of rescue, someone might have done a study into how much they increase the probability. I haven't yet heard of a failed marine rescue because the rescuers couldn't find the people in trouble because they had a 406 epirb but not a GPS 406 epirb. Not saying it couldn't happen but .... More likely to be the epirb wasn't used properly, out of date, wrong points of contact, not registered etc.

As is the case with all this stuff, you need to get into trouble to need it. My personal view is spend your money on not getting into trouble. Have the necessary training, get the experience, have a well found and maintained boat, have good equipment to allow you handle conceivable situations. Then have the rescue gear.

Obviously every one should have a 406Mhz Gps. If you are on the Eastern seaboard a fix from airports, aircraft etc is going to be swift. The response may not be as Morningbird mentioned. If your vessel is in survey then you would be on your third epirb by now, non satellite 121.5, satellite 121.5 and now the satellite 406. I guess once the market has been saturated the regulations will change again.

Most transmissions from 121.5 Mhz epirbs these days apparently come from rubbish dumps. Disassemble them carefully before discarding!

Just reading my last post and to clear up [my] confusion, I meant to say old EPIRB and new EPIRB and 406 EPIRB instead of GPS.

Even when they have got your fix they need to go through the process of identify, locate and check. Otherwise they would be dispatching resources at activations that are a waste of time and money and diverting resources when a real emergency comes along.

I don't know how long they wait if they can't contact someone or get some confirmation of the emergency before they set thing in motion. I know that Marine Rescue can wait an hour or so after your eta has passed.

AMSA direct the rescue offshore (police might do so in some circumstances such as being notified by Marine Rescue of a vessel in distress in close range) so detections by other authorities such as ATC or aircraft go through AMSA. The epirb gives AMSA a fix, very accurate with a GPS epirb and within a max of 5km for a non GPS one (that is a max error and it will often be much closer). They don't need fixes from 3rd parties but will use anything that can improve their picture.

Expect a delay while they sort things out. Don't rely on the epirb as the best option in all situations, as in the example above a VHF mayday could be a better option. If you're 1nm off Bondi beach flares might be the best option. A mayday and epirb and flares will make things a lot quicker.

I hope you don't think I am arguing with you MorningBird, because that it not what I intend.

I would imagine though that a Mayday call from someone 1nm off Bondi wouldn't have AMSA involvment. More probably Sea Rescue or police, with it being State police control. You are also right in detection of Aircraft (ATC won't detect) going through AMSA, but because there is often a delay in the satalite picking up a signal, ATC will (for want of a better term) start a process of cross fixing signals picked up by various aircraft. For example, if an aircraft picks up a signal over Sydney, the signal could be coming from sea or inland. If another aircraft picks up a signal over Broken Hill, then the chances are its not a vessel at sea in trouble. AMSA could then notify a more appropriate resorce. So yes "3rd parties" certainly, initially at least, get involved.

Toph, I don't think of this discussion as arguing, more going through stuff until we have a clear picture of what is likely to happen.

You're right on the Bondi situation. That is why a call to Marine Rescue is a better option. You talk to them, they have instant confirmation of the emergency, alert the police, help is on its way. If you activate the epirb AMSA will go through the processes and it will take much longer. Probably have to confirm the situation with Marine Rescue or another source and still the police to the rescue but it will take longer to go through the process.

Not sure what you mean by a delay in the satellite receiving an epirb, I haven't heard of that. I would think any delay would be minimal, in seconds of epirb activation. Do you have any details on such a delay? An old Navy flying mate of mine is in AMSA, I'll check with him. My GME 406 says it is zero warm up to emit a stable signal. I know 121.5 epirbs were slow to get going.

I doubt ATC would be involved in cross fixing etc. In years past that could have been the case but now 121.5 will only be transmitted if an epirb has been activated so the epirb will be the fix. 121.5 from the epirb could be used by rescue vessels to home in to the datum but not much else.

Without an epirb having been activated, say a mayday via HF or satphone, AMSA would use what ever resources are available - ships, aircraft, police and Marine Rescue etc to confirm the emergency, identify the vessel, locate it and effect the rescue. As I noted in the earlier post aircraft don't necessarily monitor 121.5 anymore and commercial aircraft don't have VHF DF capabilities. It is not likely aircraft would be the receiver of such maydays.

No doubt there are a lot happening when EPIRB is activated.

Reality is ........the only accepted device is 406 and registered.
Anything else, you fail, not accepted any more.

Even cheap EPIRB GME for $299 is presented with 45m accuracy.
It's clear GPS is build in.
But there is still 121.5 implemented for old fashion triangulation.

You're right Charriot.

All good MorningBird. You can never tell on discussion boards. I frequent another forum where this discussion would've gotten abusive by now so I am often on the defence when chatting over the net with people I have never met..

I don't know how to post pictures here but below is copied from AMSAs website. I will concede defeat on the GPS fitted 406 in that it will give a position within minutes. But the non GPS EPIRBS will be detected within minutes, but a position to work off can take an awfully long time.


A distress beacon with an encoded (GPS) location is usually detected by the RCC and located within minutes. Distress beacons that do not have the capability to provide an encoded position also provide an initial alert to the RCC within minutes, but there will be no associated position. If emergency contacts are aware of trip details or trip details have been submitted online, search operations can be commenced much sooner. If the RCC has to rely on Polar-orbiting satellites to determine the location of a beacon, the time to gain an accurate position may take longer thereby delaying search operations.

NOTE: Polar-orbiting satellites over-fly the Australian region on average every 90 minutes but passes may be anywhere from minutes to 5 hours apart. To improve response times, ensure distress beacons are registered and inform emergency contacts of trip details.

Even once a position is obtained, response times then depend on the time for a search and rescue (SAR) unit, such as a helicopter, aircraft or ground party to be readied and transit to the search area. The more remote the location of the distress incident, the longer the response time. In all instances, be prepared to survive.

As for the aircraft scenario, I do know of at least one Airline pilot that religiously monitors 121.5.....

Good info Toph. Nobody is too old/experienced to learn. The instructions with my epirb talk about instant digital signal reception etc but don't mention this.

So AMSA is receiving the activation quickly but the position takes time. Logging the trip on the AMSA website is bloody important then. They will be getting things going while they get a position e.g. calling the points of contact, checking with other authorities etc so all is not lost. I'll check tomorrow with an AMSA mate to get more details.

The epirb is transmitting 121.5 once activated so you don't have to think about it. You could be in luck if someone is listening. I believe ships have it on so help might be quite close.

Suggest it is the journalist not knowing what was being said. As far as I am aware police don't receive epirbs. Not their game.

I think the single most important thing is is to let someone, anyone know where you are going. You can't rely too heavily on equipment.

MorningBird, let us know how you get on with your AMSA mate. I will be interested to know more.

When you buy a 406 epirb you should register it and keep your details updated. If you buy a boat with a 406 ensure you change the details. They will check your details via email periodically.

The 121.5 is still transmitted for the aircraft to home into. 406 only gives a ball park position. 121.5 and 243 transmissions override whatever the aircraft radio frequency is set, comes through loud and hard to miss. I have been out of the aircrew business for awhile but as far as I am aware the international stuff is still the same.

The problem these days there are large numbers of personal beacons used by all sorts of people. Plenty are activated accidentally [kids]. I'm sure if a registered 406 is activated a phone call would soon follow to your contact details to verify. 121.5 epirbs were not registered.