www.theadvocate.com.au/story/3706112/update-600000-yacht-sinks-off-king-island/?cs=87

What is it about modern yachts and rudder/steering failures? A couple of modern yachts going to Lord Howe last year had rudder problems (and one old yacht but it was an historic vessel) and the problems in the S2H last year. A pattern there I think.

A beneteau 48 Oceanis sinks of Guadeloupe also with steering problems

www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f19/oceanis-48-sunk-in-vicinity-of-guadeloupe-160540.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cruisersforumnews+%28Cruisers+Forum+-+Emails%29




photos from segelreporter.com/multimedia/gesunken-eine-oceanis-48-sackt-ab-vor-laufender-kamera/

I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare

How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?

If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it

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ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare

How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?

If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it

I would hate to say your theory would not work. Some years ago I had the misfortune to be on an Adams 13 shoal draft with a centre board that struck a rock. The centre board drove back into the boat and opened up a crack about 12" long and tapered from a point to about 2" wide which you would not consider a large hole. Within 30 seconds we had 6" of water in the boat. ( no pump is going to handle that and how quick can you put the anchor down) The first thing we did is grabbed a bunk cushion and jamed it in the hole. We had to motor 1 hour back to the marina while just keeping the water at bay with the bulge pump. The next problem we had was with the centre board stuck in the down position our draft was to deep to enter the harbour where a crain (no travel lift) was waiting to lift us out. The Coast Guard met us out side the harbour with a large petrol driven pump which which we used to pump the boat dry. Our big problem was now to get the centre board up and the only way was to get a hydraulic jack in and jack the board back into place. This ment the packing had to be removed from the hole so as we could get the jack in. With every thing planed to a tee the packing was removed, jack inserted and the board jacked back into place. The whole process was done in about 3 min. By the time we had the packing back in the hole we had 3 feet of water in the boat and that was with the petrol pump running.

From experience the first thing you must do is locate and plug the hole. Once you have about a foot of water in the boat it can be hard to find where the water is coming in , especially if you have floor boards. Rudders are a bigger problem as the bearings are generally in a location which is hard to get to and is probably the last place you want to get stuck in when the boat is sinking. In the boat that is sinking in this thread the rudder shaft is more than likely in the void under the cockpit which is more than likely accessed via a small hatch in the rear quarter berth (as it is in my boat). In the photo of the boat there is no obvious damage to the rudder bearing area, so if this is where the hole is, it is certainly not large.

Boats with great big holes that takes hours to sink only happens in the movies. If you ever have the misfortune if holing a boat, you will be shocked by how quick the water come in as I certainly was.

Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics. The chance of keeping up with a pump is next to impossible, just open a 1" sea cock an see how much water comes in.

I read the german report of this Guadeloupe sinking and it is not stating any particular problems.
It is only generalizing.

Similarly to the King isl. story it happened in deeper water.

One should have tried to fother the damaged hull with that sail on the boom?
It worked on square riggers ages ago.

I never liked the Oceanis's steering arrangement with that twin steer position and the balanced rudder. Nor that flaming mast furled main which nearly killed us all in a gale.

I am expecting another hike on my insurance, though. Struth...

I remember reading that a hole an inch round will sink a boat.

Yeah, Jode is not dreaming. Unfortunately.

Last year l was trying to put back my impeller after cleaning it. l dropped the blocking plug and the water ingress bounced back off the cabin's ceiling. I never thought that much water could get inside in such a short time.
The hole is 25mm in diametre.
If one has a large crack or gash below the water line one would be veeery lucky to save the boat.

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Jode5 said..

ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare

How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?

If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it

Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics.

Good story.

One thing that I wonder about is why so many boats have all their batteries down low. So often one hears about boats losing radio communication when the batteries, mounted in the bilge, go under. A lightweight motorcycle battery weighs a couple of kg, can be mounted high with the same effect on stability as a few beers in the same place, and could keep the radio going for a significantly longer time than seems to be the norm in a sinking.

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ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare

How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?

If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it

I disagree. That is such a leisurely way to go down, it's almost romantic. Pack your bags, make your lunch, update your Facebook profile and step onto your dinghy/life raft without even getting wet. Take a few shots as it goes down.

If the the weather isn't so bad that it risks your chances of survival in a raft, there are probably very few places in passage making you would realistically be that are not within 72hrs or so from potential rescue. As long as you have the appropriate safety/survival equipment, and the time to gather and deploy it, there is very little risk to life.

What scares the crap out of me, weather gods aside, is hitting something (or an inherent defect) that rips the keel off and instantly flips the boat upside down. No time to prepare. Realistically, an even greater potential risk is a knockdown etc that results in being thrown overboard, lost or tangled in sheets or lifelines and dragged along drowning!

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Madmouse said..
I remember reading that a hole an inch round will sink a boat.

The smallest of leaks can sink the biggest of ships.

apparently she hit a reef at grassy harbour and continued on her way then sunk
www.theadvocate.com.au/story/3708323/yacht-hits-reef-sailors-rescued/?cs=87

The simple fact is that modern lightweight yachts are:
* Lightweight- no matter how clever your use of design, rugged and lightweight do not go together
* Have high aspect ratio, deep, keels and rudders, which apply huge loads if they hit anything
* The keels and rudders are usually near vertical, so cannot slide over obstacles
* The keels and rudders are naked- no skeg or protection of any kind.

Sooner or later hitting something is part of sailing, so failure can be expected in time and a rough and tumble open ocean.

These designs are highly efficient, and satisfy a market that wants speed and comfort, and is unconcerned (yet) about longevity of the product, (or the owners)!

In the marina I have been replacing my sea cocks even the 1/12 toilet outlet, I was supprised how slow the water ingress and how easy it is to plug the leak by hand and wood bung, obviously this leak would be two fold if underway or gone unnoticed. My guess is the rudder tubes are getting ripped open causing a difficult hole to be plugged especially if steering gear quadrants and shaft posts are tangled in the mess!

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aus005 said..
apparently she hit a reef at grassy harbour and continued on her way then sunk
www.theadvocate.com.au/story/3708323/yacht-hits-reef-sailors-rescued/?cs=87

I wonder if the steering problem was actually the boat becoming unstable with water ingress.

I was on a trailer sailor some years ago where the skipper had left a bung out and a cockpit locker was filling with water. The first symptom we had was that I couldn't steer the boat. The skipper gave me a ribbing and then when he did no better we found a locker with half a ton of water in it.

An unstable boat heavy with free water won't steer. A thought!

would getting insurance payout for something like this be hard?

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Sectorsteve said..
would getting insurance payout for something like this be hard?

i would think the owner would be **ting him self as after having a colision out side the harbour the obvious thing to do would of been to head in and check it out before heading off into bass strait this could be deemed negligent by the insurer

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aus005 said..

Sectorsteve said..
would getting insurance payout for something like this be hard?

i would think the owner would be **ting him self as after having a colision out side the harbour the obvious thing to do would of been to head in and check it out before heading off into bass strait this could be deemed negligent by the insurer

yeah i agree. any excuse is good enough for an insurer to not pay.

I nicked a bommie at Rottnest once. When I went to make an insurance claim I was asked where did I go and where was the closest safest port. So yeah, I agree this one could get messy for the owners..

I don't neccessarily agree that modern lightweight designs cannot be safe. Before we got the new ride we had in our must have checklist:
1) watertight bulkhead between the cabin and the rudder post/s.
2) raked keel to minimise the shock loads.
As an added bonus, the Pogo also came with:
3) hydrostatic release valve that allows the keel to fold back to minimise shock loads
4) Bow to stern sealed foam filled chambers, the cabin can be full of water and she will still float.
Just because it's new and lightweight doesn't mean they can't be built safe. So many times I've seen rudder damage sink a boat as they are open to the cabin, a common design trait in a lot of older boats I have sailed on. I love the old boats, and I agree a lot of new designs are not Bluewater safe, but sometimes new and lightweight can still be safe too

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Shaggybaxter said..

4) Bow to stern sealed foam filled chambers, the cabin can be full of water and she will still float.

That is a very clever piece of design work which is usually only found in tinnies and the like.

Of course it will only work if you don't load her up with too much beer.

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Shaggybaxter said..
I don't neccessarily agree that modern lightweight designs cannot be safe. Before we got the new ride we had in our must have checklist:
1) watertight bulkhead between the cabin and the rudder post/s.
2) raked keel to minimise the shock loads.
As an added bonus, the Pogo also came with:
3) hydrostatic release valve that allows the keel to fold back to minimise shock loads
4) Bow to stern sealed foam filled chambers, the cabin can be full of water and she will still float.
Just because it's new and lightweight doesn't mean they can't be built safe. So many times I've seen rudder damage sink a boat as they are open to the cabin, a common design trait in a lot of older boats I have sailed on. I love the old boats, and I agree a lot of new designs are not Bluewater safe, but sometimes new and lightweight can still be safe too

Its just amazing that more new boats aren't built using the same principals.

My rudder stock is contained within a tube within the lazarette so any water ingress past the
bearing is contained in the tube. Is this a normal design feature.??.

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samsturdy said..
My rudder stock is contained within a tube within the lazarette so any water ingress past the
bearing is contained in the tube. Is this a normal design feature.??.

Hi Sam,
In my experience, yes mate, this is/should be normal, most bluewater boats are like yours. With this design, the boat is still watertight if the rudder snaps off nice and clean. Thats a good thing.
The only time it becomes a problem is if the rudder doesn't break away cleanly. Lets say for example the rudder shaft breaks.
In heavy seas, the rudder will be acting like a lever arm, twisting this way and that due to wave action, placing abnormal demands on the lower bearing, which are usually located in the rudder tube. Most rudders are positive buoyancy, so the mongrel thing will obstinately refuse to fall out of the boat and solve the problem. With the nasty wave action, all of the loads are transferred to the lower bearing, rudder tube and its bonding to the hull and deck, and this is when it gets serious, if the mating to the hull starts to fatigue and crack. Or the impact alone cracks the rudder tube as the rudder tries to tear out of the boat.
When push comes to shove, you want the rudder to be the fuse to protect the rudder tube.

Some tubes are built like the proverbial brick dunny, but a lot are not. Bizarrely I have seen guys beef up their rudder and ignore the tube completely which is a bit backward! In a normal world they are well suited to their task, but when you see a rudder flopping around in big seas, hearing the shaft banging and scraping away inside a thin walled rudder tube is a pretty sick feeling.
Most brand new boats use the same rudder tube design still to this day Sam, so the design on yours is obviously good enough mate to be considered the norm. I was lucky enough to have a choice.

There was a case recently of a brand new Benny 45 hitting an unknown object and sinking due to tube failure where it meets the hull, the tubes were open to the cabin downstairs, and it cracked where the tube was bonded to the hull. What can make it worse is failure of the hull integrity in this area of the boat is often really bloody hard to repair at sea.
I'm not saying mine is perfect either, I don't have any rudder tubes at all! Pogo use closed cell foam for hull strength and integrity, and around both rudders they use a very exotic, and expensive, high density foam that is designed for lateral loads for this exact reason. It is interesting, even though the foam feels like there is no flex at all, it is designed to flex a wee bit to allow the outer and inner walls of the hull to move independently without losing structural integrity and prevent cracking. (3mm outer outer layer of glass, 20mm foam, then another 3mm of glass on the inner wall)
The watertight bulkhead then is the critical member in my design, it isolates and seals the rudder and steering assy from inside the boat. So, I can't just drill a simple hole in my bulkhead to run a wire through for example.

So, tubes are not a bad design, as they are still used on a lot of brand new boats today mate, so it must be good enough for most applications one would think!

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samsturdy said..
My rudder stock is contained within a tube within the lazarette so any water ingress past the
bearing is contained in the tube. Is this a normal design feature.??.

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andy59 said..

Shaggybaxter said..
I don't neccessarily agree that modern lightweight designs cannot be safe. Before we got the new ride we had in our must have checklist:
1) watertight bulkhead between the cabin and the rudder post/s.
2) raked keel to minimise the shock loads.
As an added bonus, the Pogo also came with:
3) hydrostatic release valve that allows the keel to fold back to minimise shock loads
4) Bow to stern sealed foam filled chambers, the cabin can be full of water and she will still float.
Just because it's new and lightweight doesn't mean they can't be built safe. So many times I've seen rudder damage sink a boat as they are open to the cabin, a common design trait in a lot of older boats I have sailed on. I love the old boats, and I agree a lot of new designs are not Bluewater safe, but sometimes new and lightweight can still be safe too

Its just amazing that more new boats aren't built using the same principals.

It is just a matter of price. The Pogos are very special boats. The mass produced boats offer huge volume at a relatively low price.

Thanks Shaggy, nice to know I've just got a bog standard design.
OK guys.....so if I'm far from land and knowingly damage the rudder with the prospect of hull damage. Is it possible
for me to remove the tiller and push the stock out of the tube, losing the rudder entirely. Doing this would leave the tube intact,
the top of which is above waterline. Having saved the boat though, what do I do regarding controlling the vessel in
relation to wind and waves while waiting to be rescued.??.

In your example Sam, I wonder if a parachute anchor or drouge would straighten you up into wind or waves.. You would still be at the mercy of any current/drift until help arrives though..

My experience on river boats tells me that boats go beam on to the current. If the swell is running
in the same direction as the current then I would be side on to the swell. Not good. I do have a drogue
on board (previous owner). If I deployed that from the bow, would that would that bring me bow on to
the swell.??. This is presuming there's no wind. Oh, and the motor won't start.

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samsturdy said..

My experience on river boats tells me that boats go beam on to the current. If the swell is running
in the same direction as the current then I would be side on to the swell. Not good. I do have a drogue
on board (previous owner). If I deployed that from the bow, would that would that bring me bow on to
the swell.??. This is presuming there's no wind. Oh, and the motor won't start.

A drogue streamed from the bow will result in the boat going astern at a couple of knots. It puts too much strain on the rudder. Also, most yachts will ride about 45-90 degrees off the wind with a sea anchor streamed from the bow. It won't rest bow on.

At sea it is unlikely the current will be the issue. Most yachts rest naturally beam onto, or nearly so, the wind and sea. Many can be brought to 45 degrees off the wind by heaving too and using the main position to get the best angle.

I have a para drogue (not anchor) and it is streamed from astern to slow the boat down to a couple of knots and is an emergency steering device as well.

Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.