samsturdy said..

Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.

Chris 249 said..




Good story.

One thing that I wonder about is why so many boats have all their batteries down low. So often one hears about boats losing radio communication when the batteries, mounted in the bilge, go under. A lightweight motorcycle battery weighs a couple of kg, can be mounted high with the same effect on stability as a few beers in the same place, and could keep the radio going for a significantly longer time than seems to be the norm in a sinking.

MorningBird said..




To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.

MorningBird said..





I wonder if the steering problem was actually the boat becoming unstable with water ingress.

I was on a trailer sailor some years ago where the skipper had left a bung out and a cockpit locker was filling with water. The first symptom we had was that I couldn't steer the boat. The skipper gave me a ribbing and then when he did no better we found a locker with half a ton of water in it.

An unstable boat heavy with free water won't steer. A thought!

samsturdy said..






You make it all sound like so much fun MB. lol. However getting back to design. My rudder stock tube
is contained within a watertight lazerette....that means it's separated from the rest of the boat by a watertight bulkhead.
So as long as hull damage was confined to the area around the tube, the boat will not flood. So is THAT aspect
a normal design feature.???.

MorningBird said..
How many of these boats going to Davey Jones Locker are Bennies? A lot it seems.
I recall a French coroner reporting on a Bennie, maybe 20 years ago, that was sold as a bluewater cruising boat and capsized with multiple fatalities. From memory he said that the boat wasn't safe to go outside the harbour. Angle of vanishing stability 105-110 degrees I recall.
Is it a coincidence I see Bennies sinking often, or are they really crap as ocean going boats? They are great cocktail boats.

Jode5 said..




I would hate to say your theory would not work. Some years ago I had the misfortune to be on an Adams 13 shoal draft with a centre board that struck a rock. The centre board drove back into the boat and opened up a crack about 12" long and tapered from a point to about 2" wide which you would not consider a large hole. Within 30 seconds we had 6" of water in the boat. ( no pump is going to handle that and how quick can you put the anchor down) The first thing we did is grabbed a bunk cushion and jamed it in the hole. We had to motor 1 hour back to the marina while just keeping the water at bay with the bulge pump. The next problem we had was with the centre board stuck in the down position our draft was to deep to enter the harbour where a crain (no travel lift) was waiting to lift us out. The Coast Guard met us out side the harbour with a large petrol driven pump which which we used to pump the boat dry. Our big problem was now to get the centre board up and the only way was to get a hydraulic jack in and jack the board back into place. This ment the packing had to be removed from the hole so as we could get the jack in. With every thing planed to a tee the packing was removed, jack inserted and the board jacked back into place. The whole process was done in about 3 min. By the time we had the packing back in the hole we had 3 feet of water in the boat and that was with the petrol pump running.

From experience the first thing you must do is locate and plug the hole. Once you have about a foot of water in the boat it can be hard to find where the water is coming in , especially if you have floor boards. Rudders are a bigger problem as the bearings are generally in a location which is hard to get to and is probably the last place you want to get stuck in when the boat is sinking. In the boat that is sinking in this thread the rudder shaft is more than likely in the void under the cockpit which is more than likely accessed via a small hatch in the rear quarter berth (as it is in my boat). In the photo of the boat there is no obvious damage to the rudder bearing area, so if this is where the hole is, it is certainly not large.

Boats with great big holes that takes hours to sink only happens in the movies. If you ever have the misfortune if holing a boat, you will be shocked by how quick the water come in as I certainly was.

Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics. The chance of keeping up with a pump is next to impossible, just open a 1" sea cock an see how much water comes in.

Trek said..




Very interesting reading, real experience of problems is hugely valuable. And good suggestions Jode5 about locate and plug the hole. One time I accidentally broke a sea cock and the water flooded in really fast so I always thought about what would happen if the boat hit something and was holed where I didn't know.

What you said about the floorboards struck home and I have wondered what to do about that. To date I decided to screw down all my floorboards tight making a little mostly water proof bubble under each so if the hull was holed the water ingress would hopefully be limited. But sometimes I wondered if it would be better to keep them all loose so if we hit something it would be possible to quickly throw them all up and take a look to see whats happening and plug it.

What does anyone else think?

MorningBird said..




To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.

Guitz said..
A piece of three ply or even laminex with a large bead around the edge of T Rex, which bonds under water and a few small monel ring nails could save the boat and a few lives in a situation like this...... time and all other factors going your way of course! As well as carrying some tapered wooden bungs sized to fit hull through fittings.
soudal.com.au/trexsmx/

PhoenixStar said..




A drogue on Wide Bar??? And what do you do when you get to the second leg? If there is surf on the outer leg, the second leg would be unworkable. I just did the bar in 30 knot winds, outer leg no break, inner leg boat rolling 40 degrees in breaking water. You would have to pay me huge money have a drogue out.

PhoenixStar said..
No breaking waves on the first - visible - leg and I wouldn't take it on if there was a break. The bar is now about half a mile further north and much better than the old entrance. The break was on the second leg which you can't see from seaward. The waves were not high, just rough, which begs the question, should you not cross in rough conditions at the top of the tide. I am sure that if I had crossed a couple of hours earlier the sand bank to the east would have blocked the swell more effectively and given me a smoother ride. I came out of the bay a fortnight earlier so had a very good idea where the new tracks are.
I've no problem with a drogue on the first leg with the seas astern, just can't get my head around the use it on the second leg. Saw a boat - Exocet - get caught crossing out one time, he only had a 9 horse Yanmar, couldn't cope and he surfed in quite a way backwards. Glad his crew had a sense of humour. The same sea caught Pineapple Pol and buried her almost to the mast, inflated her life raft which was then tethered along side. Much drama.