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INTHELOOP said..

first flight assessments of my Chrono.

super smooth and cranking on my KFA Hydrofoil in 5knts on 15m. Amazing stuff.

Just gotta work on my 'foil' technique and all these bridals can be confusing

will be out on it today again..

I might be going to tell you how to such eggs but here's what worked on high aspect foils I have used.

Foils tend to work better with the bar out compared to leis. You are more likely to stall a foil with having too much bar in. The open cell ozone foils definitely do this as does my speed 3.
So... try letting the bar out more let it breath. work a very small sharp sign wave rather than a big up/down your might do on an lei. Its more like tip wiggle that and actual sign. They response quite well to this. Also run the kite low. High aspect kites love it low!... If you need to sign it big in bugger all wind bar in on the way down and bar out on the way up. Downloop on every turn to keep the apparent wind going and the kite powered up.

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Plummet said..

INTHELOOP said..

first flight assessments of my Chrono.

super smooth and cranking on my KFA Hydrofoil in 5knts on 15m. Amazing stuff.

Just gotta work on my 'foil' technique and all these bridals can be confusing

will be out on it today again..

I might be going to tell you how to such eggs but here's what worked on high aspect foils I have used.

Foils tend to work better with the bar out compared to leis. You are more likely to stall a foil with having too much bar in. The open cell ozone foils definitely do this as does my speed 3.
So... try letting the bar out more let it breath. work a very small sharp sign wave rather than a big up/down your might do on an lei. Its more like tip wiggle that and actual sign. They response quite well to this. Also run the kite low. High aspect kites love it low!... If you need to sign it big in bugger all wind bar in on the way down and bar out on the way up. Downloop on every turn to keep the apparent wind going and the kite powered up.

Plums I could kiss ya!

I was frustrated with my Psycho III flysurfer because I thought this should not be happening - the back stalling with pulling in the bar - unlike a LEI. I did the mixer test like 4 times after every session and it would stall! I thought WTF is going on here and I was close to selling her. Now I know it's all good. I started kiting again with her recently and was so chuffed when I didn't pull in the bar all the time and how responsive the kite was by simply letting her fly and letting her do her thing. Now I am in love all over again!

Tune your lines. Shouldn't be stalling when used in its correct wind range, and don't be afraid to use the trim strap to *gasp!* trim out back stall in light wind...

Must be nice to have clean winds, I couldn't live without the range and stability of the Triple Depower S3 and P4 where we are.

And like Uncle Plums said, give them their heads and let me by them run. Foils will make you a better kiter with LEI too IMO...

I have a couple of foils incl a S3 21, and was frustrated in the early days until I managed to get a hold of Ian Young for a few pointers. Half an hour on the beach and it was like I had a different kite. My version of his explanation is to think of the kite as a wing, needing airflow over the canopy to generate lift (power). This means you need to fly the kite through the window as fast as possible, which is why sheeting out and trimming out any back stall is vital to maximize power. My 21 flies much better with a little depower on, and ironically, the lighter it is the more depower I use to avoid stalling when turning the kite. Sheeting in basically brakes the wing, and slows/stall the kite. Ultimately if you pull the steering lines hard enough, you can land it backwards on the beach.

I agree with Kami - a couple of seasons of foils has totally improved my LEI flying too.

Yup... Interesting being back in NZ with NZ sized riders and despite being heavier than them, I'm either on the same sized kite... or smaller

If you're trimming a foil to take the power out, you need a smaller size! Plummet's Law of Sizes v1.2

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Kazan said..

.... - the back stalling with pulling in the bar - unlike a LEI. I did the mixer test like 4 times after every session and it would stall! ...

Excuse me but that is bollocks. LEI fly exactly the same way as foils. You pull in the bar too much on an LEI and you are going to choke it and lose heaps of power. The fundamental principles of air speed and angle of attack are exactly the same for all wings.

The vast majority of kiters ride with the bar pulled too far in and lose too much power. That's why they're crap at riding in light wind and crap at riding upwind.

To a point gorgo. Anything with a great deal of aspect likes speed in the wing and some of this is generated by allowing the kite to hunt the edge of the window, hence can be affected MORE by over sheeting. Is it a function of 'stalling' or the wing not liking the lack of forward speed due to over sheeting and needing speed?

But yes depends on the line setup, mixer setup and trim settings for sure.

I remember with line lengths set equal my FS pyscho was prone to 'stalling' if sheeted in too much.

But damn the boosts were high and long...wing tips used to do this crazy collapse thingy on the transitions though, drove me nuts!!


But I like foils, one day will get me one again for sure.

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Gorgo said..

Kazan said..

.... - the back stalling with pulling in the bar - unlike a LEI. I did the mixer test like 4 times after every session and it would stall! ...

Excuse me but that is bollocks. LEI fly exactly the same way as foils. You pull in the bar too much on an LEI and you are going to choke it and lose heaps of power. The fundamental principles of air speed and angle of attack are exactly the same for all wings.

The vast majority of kiters ride with the bar pulled too far in and lose too much power. That's why they're crap at riding in light wind and crap at riding upwind.

Accidentally red thumbed this...

Dead right.

Some kites are more resistant to actual back stalling, and will keep flying and pulling on the bar but are just being a door in wind... more bar pressure not actually being a sign of optimal flight performance.

Depending of the state of tune of the kite, you may have to add a little trim just to ride it comfortably. I like an inch pulled when powered up on my LEIs so I can hold a good stance and have lighter bar pressure... back stall not being an issue at all, regardless of trim.

P3 13 was a great kite, but was prone to back stall, like most fixed bridle depowers.... I think the Speed3/4 and Psycho4 went a long way to solve this problem but, like eppo said, high AR kites can be prone to it... more of the wing surface losing laminar flow due to turbulence at high AoA?

With all kites the usual cause of back stalling (excluding rider error) is line length. Trim the lines and the problem goes away.

Foils are much more susceptible to porosity. Air passes through the fabric and you get turbulent air flow over the surface. When the coatings wear out the kite is usually completely shagged. I think it's not so much that it is a ram air "foil" kite but that the canopy material is much lighter and the material gets bashed around on the sand (see the Chrono instructional video for examples). We tested a foil with just under 200 hours on it and it was reading 12 seconds on the leading edge (time taken to pass a measured amount of air through the fabric. A new canopy would read 400-500 seconds.

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Gorgo said..

We tested a foil with just under 200 hours on it and it was reading 12 seconds on the leading edge (time taken to pass a measured amount of air through the fabric. A new canopy would read 400-500 seconds.

I don't understand what you meant by "seconds" here.

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Loftywinds said..

Gorgo said..
....time taken to pass a measured amount of air through the fabric. A new canopy would read 400-500 seconds.

I don't understand what you meant by "seconds" here.

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Gorgo said..

Loftywinds said..

Gorgo said..
....time taken to pass a measured amount of air through the fabric. A new canopy would read 400-500 seconds.

I don't understand what you meant by "seconds" here.

Thanks, but how did you measure that exactly? How did you time it? Wind tunnel?

It's a device called a porosimeter. It's simply a cylinder with a known volume of air, a piston to push the air, a seal and clamp to hold the fabric like a diaphragm and a timer.



Set it up, turn it on, read the number at the end. Anything over a few hundred seconds is fine. Anything down in the tens is tissue paper.

It's described here. http://www.jdc.ch/en/scientific-line/porosimetre-mk1/

It's not really necessary for kites. You can usually tell because the fabric looks and feels like tissue paper. As a rough rule of thumb test you can moisten one side of the fabric, seal it against your mouth and blow. If you can easily blow droplets of moisture through the fabric then it's probably porous.

You can reseal porous fabric with Nikwax waterproofing spray but it adds weight and doesn't last very long.

There's new coating stuff out that renews, reseals, and cleans it all up... someone did it to and old kite and was thrilled at the result. I have a kite of Seal n Glide but may not ever get aeround to it :-D

I would be sceptical of that. It might make it look nice (like Armorall does) but it won't seal the fabric. The original coating is put on during the multiple steps in the weaving process with heat and high pressure. You really think you can spray on a coating that matches that?

Guys. I have to say this because I am so stoked to have finally seen a Chrono in action today. It was the black 12mt model, and wow man that thing has lift! It looked very slick almost like a thin UFO, and the power on 10knots was amazing. I won't say any more than that for now, but as soon as I get a chance to try it I'll write a proper review. Oh man... I am going to be dreaming about this tonight for sure!

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Gorgo said..

I would be sceptical of that. It might make it look nice (like Armorall does) but it won't seal the fabric. The original coating is put on during the multiple steps in the weaving process with heat and high pressure. You really think you can spray on a coating that matches that?

Seemed to work. Added several hundred grams of weight to the kite though...

There was someone spraying a dissolved solution of silicon over kites and reckoned it worked. I bet there are simple solutions that do a good enough job - if you can live with the additional weight and hassle.

Threre's that stuff that repels water too; someone else asked about it but the cost was retarded - several hundred for a smaller kite, IIRC.

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Loftywinds said..

Guys. I have to say this because I am so stoked to have finally seen a Chrono in action today. It was the black 12mt model, and wow man that thing has lift! It looked very slick almost like a thin UFO, and the power on 10knots was amazing. I won't say any more than that for now, but as soon as I get a chance to try it I'll write a proper review. Oh man... I am going to be dreaming about this tonight for sure!

I'm curious... how did just seeing one stoke you up? unless I can get it in my hands, it's a whole lot of meh.

Okay now you have my attention.....!!!!!!

In 11 knots apparently!....


kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2384063&start=20

Here's that video

pretty insane hang time for such light wind.

I'm impressed!

Is this revolutionary type stuff or do all extreme aspect foils do this?

Looks like good fun for 11 knots

I want one!

if it is true then it is pretty ground breaking. agree It looks 11-12 knots. I wonder if the trees downwind are creating an updraft?
Either way I'm definitely keen to fly one

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dafish said..

pretty insane hang time for such light wind.

It is. The Chrono is a revolution in design, especially as a light wind kite. It's something that you can take with you in a small bag along with your regular LEI kite and have in cases where the LEI will not fly in light 10 to 12knots. Forget the so called light wind LEI kites, Blade, Zephyr, etc. This Ozone kite has pushed the bar way out above the rest of the light wind kite market. Even Flysurfer have to catch up I think.

Thanks Steve no idea how to do that.

Kazan like your enthusiasm.

Lets see hey.

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Kazan said..

dafish said..

pretty insane hang time for such light wind.

It is. The Chrono is a revolution in design, especially as a light wind kite. It's something that you can take with you in a small bag along with your regular LEI kite and have in cases where the LEI will not fly in light 10 to 12knots. Forget the so called light wind LEI kites, Blade, Zephyr, etc. This Ozone kite has pushed the bar way out above the rest of the light wind kite market. Even Flysurfer have to catch up I think.

I thought we had to wait til we actually got to fly irt before we could lay the hyperbole on thick and heavy? Your rule...

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Spark said..

I'm impressed!

Is this revolutionary type stuff or do all extreme aspect foils do this?

Looks like good fun for 11 knots

Pretty much. But slap the Ozone logo on and it's "revolutionary"

Spark you are a naughty naughty boy....lol!

all my kites are more surf orientated kites, but this would be a great kite to have for light wind jumping and speeding around. The price tag does suck though.....

Another Chrono in light wind video