Hello all,

This is my 2nd post regarding load and pop, after watching decades of videos and reading almost every forum post that is available concerning pure load and pop ( not a sent kite jump). I have been struggling for my last sessions to get load and pop applied, but after my last session which was yesterday, I think I am focusing on wrong aspects on what am I doing wrong so I wanted your opinion.

So my thought is, while going left foot forward which is my good side, I edge very well and hard at the point that I see my self in a completely higher upwind angle than the other kite surfers in front of me. For example I am travelling 45 degrees while they may be travelling 25 to 30 degrees upwind ( not sure if the degrees are correct, just want to stress the angle in which I edge).

Edging hard allows me to gain good speed while building apparent wind (if I understand this correctly).

So when I set myself to try to load and pop, I think the following problems occur which I theorized today:

1) I feel when I flatten my board to go downwind I feel that I kill my speed instead of gaining more. I know it has to be done for nearly a second but still something doesn't feel right.

2) What I believe is going wrong and I think doesn't help me is that, because already I am traveling in a high angle, the downwind and loading phase is killing my kite because there is no actual "space" to load effectively because already my board is in the upper angle range, which a higher angle than that, which comes with loading is slowing me down - stopping me. As soon as I try to edge suddenly and hard I feel that I choke the kite and my board looses contact with the water in a sense that it goes vertical and all goes wrong.


I do not know if I learn to edge more softly etc. but this hard angle comes naturally.

Sorry if all this doesn't make any sense. I tried to explain it in the best way I could.

Thank you in advance.

George

Hi George
If I understand what you've written, I think you're trying too hard and over-analysing the problem.
Let's ignore the kite placement since you said you want to do it without sending the kite. But it does help to have the kite reasonably high.

Try to relax a bit more, run off the wind momentarily as you size up a bit of chop (ie ramp) to launch off, then heel pressure to face into the chop and up you go as you hit it. Point your board down wind while in the air for a smooth landing.

It's harder without a bit chop to launch off until you have the technique down pat. Good luck and keep practicing.

I'd go for flat water so timing the chop is not necessary. Try not going so upwind on your approach,unhook then load n pop. I find it keeps the kites power steadier . Later for the more advanced pop techniques.

Thank you very much for your replies. I ride mostly in choppy water which I know is not the best in learning how to load and pop. I am trying to get the technique down so I would like to learn it without a ramp but I guess the ramp will help the technique. I would not attempt to unhook yet since I cant master the hooked in load and pop. I prefer to have a progressive learning pattern instead of jumping into something I aint certain about.

Any chance of uploading a vid?

It may also be worthwhile paying for an hour or so with an instructor to help fine tune your technique if you haven't been able to sort if reading online advice and watching decades of video's.

You don't really need to try and pop hard or come off your edge much if your not unhooking, let the kite do the work. May be easier to just try it unhooked.

I think popping off a chop ramp defeats the purpose.
You should be aiming to pop over that chop as a start.
It's a useful move later on in the surf when heading out.
From your explanation it's a little hard to tell. As when you edge hard it slows us down and your saying you speed up. You whole process might be taking too long too. As in... at speed you can do it all in about 3 meters.

Riding along normally.
Slightly!!!! head down wind for one second (2max)
Edge back up wind one second
Push up with back leg and stand up to a vertical position.

This is a rough guide that should get you popping up off the water.
Keep practising and modify the timing to suit you and the conditions.

Others feel free to add or correct.

Try this Vid - good explanation

Great video but the recommendation to keep kite at 10 or 2 is a bit optimistic for beginners. I find keeping the kite a bit higher, say at 45, I can pop more easily.

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MichaelShepherd said..
Great video but the recommendation to keep kite at 10 or 2 is a bit optimistic for beginners. I find keeping the kite a bit higher, say at 45, I can pop more easily.

Yeah I found the same, especially with foil kites. Sending the kite too aggressively back past 12 takes a lot of the power out of the kite and the jumps are small. Just pulling on the bar, but keeping the kite at around 10 or 45deg works best

Thank you once more for your replies.

Plummet, I wish I could take a video. I always ask people at the beach to give me some info etc. I know a video as well would really help. I thought about paying up an instructor but I want to try a bit more myself cause I think I am over thinking and over analyzing it.

strydz and unclehooked, I think i am over edging and killing the speed.

I have seen this video a lot of times and the woman makes it look effortless. One thing I didn't do although I knew it in theory was the pushing with backfoot after the loading. Because I thought I was failing at the loading part I would not even think of stomping the backfoot, but it seems thats what throws you in the air. I remember I have read somewhere, that just by edging hard the kite would get you airborne etc.

I will try to keep it simple and do it as simple as possible next time and I think it will work.

If you are trying to get used to kite generated pop, you can also get good feed back using small (30cm) chop. If you edge and release up the chop (release rather than jump) you'll see a massive difference in height and hangtime depending on how well you get your timing. Once you are regularly getting good height do the same thing between the chop. You'll know if you are getting your timing right as you'll end up a lot higher and float a lot further than you are expecting

by release you mean the olly skateboard move everyone talks about? by stomping back foot to release your load?

or just edge hard and the line tension will give me the required height, without the back leg kicking move??

Yo dude check out coach crathern's woo videos on youtube he does a real good one on load and pop. Like the man says just try and drive the hell out of that back fin into the water.

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awkward customer said..
Yo dude check out coach crathern's woo videos on youtube he does a real good one on load and pop. Like the man says just try and drive the hell out of that back fin into the water.

^^yip cheers dude thats the one.

I have seen this video in the past and I have contacted Lewis concerning some tips etc. In the video he makes the loading look effortless. I have tried it as well but I cannot do it, not sure if it is the choppy water or the bindings.

Maybe bindings would help I don't know but the part where he is edging and then he stomps his foot and he edges hard and pops its something I tried but simply doesn't work.

His normal edging though looks very normal as if he doesn't put that much pressure on back foot and that is why I was thinking maybe what I am doing wrong as I have written above is that I constantly edge hard and then when I need to really load the board, I can't do the extra bit which will help me get the pop. Maybe its my stance or something. Most of the times when I try to load as hard as possible, I choke the kite, by my board and by my body which pulls the kite by the harness :/. I guess I will have to go practice more and try different things cause maybe I got it all wrong

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Loftywinds said..

MichaelShepherd said..
Great video but the recommendation to keep kite at 10 or 2 is a bit optimistic for beginners. I find keeping the kite a bit higher, say at 45, I can pop more easily.

Yeah I found the same, especially with foil kites. Sending the kite too aggressively back past 12 takes a lot of the power out of the kite and the jumps are small. Just pulling on the bar, but keeping the kite at around 10 or 45deg works best

Michael - Maybe they should have said 10.30 OR 1.30 ?
Loftywinds - Agrees with Michael then writes "around 10 or 45deg" There was nothing said about sending the kite aggressively back past 12?
Nothing about sending the kite @ all.

Sounds like you're trying too hard. Ride upwind enough so you maintain a solid speed. Relax your edge then re -apply your edge, heavy on the back foot then release. Watch above it happens in less than half a second.

What most people have a hard time with is the release, load on the back foot then push off to release like hopping off one foot.

I've always found it easier unhooked as hooked in it feels weird as you're still pulled by the harness.

Yes I think I am over trying and edging too hard, without releasing my edge. I will do my best next time to apply it as simple as possible and see the results. As long as I pop even a few cm, as long as I get the method, I shall be okay. Thank you all very much for your support. Really appreciate it.

This is the best video, you have a good view of whats going on.

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FlyByKite said..
Loftywinds - Agrees with Michael then writes "around 10 or 45deg" There was nothing said about sending the kite aggressively back past 12?
Nothing about sending the kite @ all.

I know. I've added that to make a point about keeping the kite steady around 45deg or 10 - 10-11ish o'clock. You know what I mean...


*meh* why do I always have to justify myself to these seppos?

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Loftywinds said..

FlyByKite said..
Loftywinds - Agrees with Michael then writes "around 10 or 45deg" There was nothing said about sending the kite aggressively back past 12?
Nothing about sending the kite @ all.

I know. I've added that to make a point about keeping the kite steady around 45deg or 10 - 10-11ish o'clock. You know what I mean...


*meh* why do I always have to justify myself to these seppos?

You have to justify yourself because you haven't understood the post - do you understand English - Who's the Seppo now?

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prastis said..
by release you mean the olly skateboard move everyone talks about? by stomping back foot to release your load?

or just edge hard and the line tension will give me the required height, without the back leg kicking move??

The skateboard ollie is how I think of load and pop. Just kite along at a moderate pace with a little bit of tension/load in the lines, rapidly shift your weight to the back foot/stomp the board and this will create a small bubble/mound of water under the board but in front of you. This in turn create a very small 'ramp' and at the same time load up the lines a little more as it increases your pull on the kite. As you kick off the top of the bubble of water you release the 'pop' and get a little air, it might only be a couple of centimetres but it's a start.

Don't worry too much about the kite, keep it in the same spot in the wind window, anywhere you're comfortable is a good starting point. As far as I've always understood it load and pop in it's simplest form should be done without any input into the kite, it's all about shifting your weight and board/edge control.

Once you've got the load and pop squared away, you can start getting air by sending the kite, then you combine load and pop and sending the kite, and then you time it all together with the lip of a wave and the sky's the limit

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eibwen said..
This is the best video, you have a good view of whats going on.

i dont get why hes telling you to go downwind before the load? if your not unhooked you dont need to. the only time i go downwind when hooked is if im super over powered boosting, and you need to go a little downwind to sink that edge. other then that you will loose speed if you go downwind for a hooked pop.

just watch how others pop!

I think the 'go downwind' just creates confusion. You're not really going downwind, just turning the board downwind and almost in the same instant turning it back, just to create resistance in the lines and load them up for the pop.

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prastis said..
Thank you once more for your replies.

Plummet, I wish I could take a video. I always ask people at the beach to give me some info etc. I know a video as well would really help. I thought about paying up an instructor but I want to try a bit more myself cause I think I am over thinking and over analyzing it.

strydz and unclehooked, I think i am over edging and killing the speed.

I have seen this video a lot of times and the woman makes it look effortless. One thing I didn't do although I knew it in theory was the pushing with backfoot after the loading. Because I thought I was failing at the loading part I would not even think of stomping the backfoot, but it seems thats what throws you in the air. I remember I have read somewhere, that just by edging hard the kite would get you airborne etc.

I will try to keep it simple and do it as simple as possible next time and I think it will work.

Is there any chance your board is a touch too big? can you borrow a slightly smaller board for a session and see how you go?

Try this thought experiment. Imagine you have a rope tied to a tree branch. Now grab the rope and run away from the tree. The speed at which you run will lift you off the ground when the rope tightens. This happens because the tree can't move, the rope won't stretch, but the rope can swing up in an arc taking you with it.

Now apply this to a kite. If you point the board aggressively upwind you are moving away from the kite like the running example. The kite will attempt to be pulled upwind too, but apply so much resistance that it acts like an anchored tree branch (rather than slipping into the wind with only the leading edge providing resistance, you're now pulling the full sail into the wind). The lines aren't going to stretch, so you're momentum is going to translate into leaving the water in an arc.

A couple of things to focus on:
- The more sudden the change of direction, the more like an anchor the kite is going to be. If you turn slowly, the kite will have time to react and dump the power by slipping to another part of the wind window. You need to be going away from the kite super, SUPER fast.
- You need to go further away from the kite than your original tack line. When you flatten out the board and head slightly downwind, this is so that you can cross your original tack line with more speed. You don't need to head downwind, it just helps speed up the heading-away-from-the-kite part by giving a little bit of time to initiate your change in direction. It also helps make the kite lag back in the wind window so it has even more chance to be 'caught deep' and provide a strong anchor to pull against.
- When heading away from the kite, expect to be pulled up in an arc. If your kite is at 50 degrees to the water, expect to leave the water at 40 degrees in the other direction with the lines tight the whole time. Going from 0 degrees (on the water) to 40 degrees (in the air) is a big shift and you can help by aiming your board upwards when you feel the kite is about to pull you up off the water (try aiming for 40 degrees up, but you've most likely left the water before you get there) . This makes the board slide off the water rather than being pulled off the water.

The final point is to go with the jump. You need to really dig into the carve and stomp your back foot to get a quick change in direction of the board, but once you're about to leave the water, lean forward. Like superman leaning forward. This helps initiate the weight transfer from horizontal to vertical. You can assist by pushing off too, but the critical part is to lean forward and go with the jump.

In reality there are many more factors in motion (especially when unhooked), but that might give you a starting point for what you are trying to do.

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VRBones said..
Try this thought experiment.

Best worded explanation yet. Cheers

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Chris6791 said..

prastis said..
Thank you once more for your replies.

Plummet, I wish I could take a video. I always ask people at the beach to give me some info etc. I know a video as well would really help. I thought about paying up an instructor but I want to try a bit more myself cause I think I am over thinking and over analyzing it.

strydz and unclehooked, I think i am over edging and killing the speed.

I have seen this video a lot of times and the woman makes it look effortless. One thing I didn't do although I knew it in theory was the pushing with backfoot after the loading. Because I thought I was failing at the loading part I would not even think of stomping the backfoot, but it seems thats what throws you in the air. I remember I have read somewhere, that just by edging hard the kite would get you airborne etc.

I will try to keep it simple and do it as simple as possible next time and I think it will work.

Is there any chance your board is a touch too big? can you borrow a slightly smaller board for a session and see how you go?

My Board is 1.37 x 41.5, its the blankforce enduro board. I think its a good size for my weight 82kg.

Regarding the downwind part, in a video I have seen they say that it allows the board to sit deeper into the water so you can edge harder into the load and pop, which makes sense I guess. I agree and I feel as well that when I try to go downwind for a second or so, I loose my speed instead of gaining more

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VRBones said..
Try this thought experiment. Imagine you have a rope tied to a tree branch. Now grab the rope and run away from the tree. The speed at which you run will lift you off the ground when the rope tightens. This happens because the tree can't move, the rope won't stretch, but the rope can swing up in an arc taking you with it.

Now apply this to a kite. If you point the board aggressively upwind you are moving away from the kite like the running example. The kite will attempt to be pulled upwind too, but apply so much resistance that it acts like an anchored tree branch (rather than slipping into the wind with only the leading edge providing resistance, you're now pulling the full sail into the wind). The lines aren't going to stretch, so you're momentum is going to translate into leaving the water in an arc.

A couple of things to focus on:
- The more sudden the change of direction, the more like an anchor the kite is going to be. If you turn slowly, the kite will have time to react and dump the power by slipping to another part of the wind window. You need to be going away from the kite super, SUPER fast.
- You need to go further away from the kite than your original tack line. When you flatten out the board and head slightly downwind, this is so that you can cross your original tack line with more speed. You don't need to head downwind, it just helps speed up the heading-away-from-the-kite part by giving a little bit of time to initiate your change in direction. It also helps make the kite lag back in the wind window so it has even more chance to be 'caught deep' and provide a strong anchor to pull against.
- When heading away from the kite, expect to be pulled up in an arc. If your kite is at 50 degrees to the water, expect to leave the water at 40 degrees in the other direction with the lines tight the whole time. Going from 0 degrees (on the water) to 40 degrees (in the air) is a big shift and you can help by aiming your board upwards when you feel the kite is about to pull you up off the water (try aiming for 40 degrees up, but you've most likely left the water before you get there) . This makes the board slide off the water rather than being pulled off the water.

The final point is to go with the jump. You need to really dig into the carve and stomp your back foot to get a quick change in direction of the board, but once you're about to leave the water, lean forward. Like superman leaning forward. This helps initiate the weight transfer from horizontal to vertical. You can assist by pushing off too, but the critical part is to lean forward and go with the jump.

In reality there are many more factors in motion (especially when unhooked), but that might give you a starting point for what you are trying to do.

Thank you very very much for the comprehensive analysis. The thing is if you look closely in most hooked in videos, most riders don't even stomp their foot that much and they still get a decent pop. As I said in my first post, one of my major problems is that as soon as I try to stomp and edge hard, my body comes into a squatting position close to the water butt position, my board almost comes vertical to the water which has the result of me loosing the connection with the water, and I choke the kite with my waist harness cause I pull it as I lean back.

The problem I am referring that I am loosing contact with the water is as Lewis describes from 1.23 to 1.31 min into the video.

I can't think of myself leaning forward from the squat position I get into in order to release the edge, but then again, in most hooked in load and pop videos, most riders don't even get into the hard edging position that you see in the unhooked videos so I may try to have a more upstand position for hooked.

I am not an expert in physics etc. but can't we argue that in the tree example as well as with kite, there is a chance that instead of going into the air in an arc, you just kill the speed and come to a complete stop?