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sebol said..
Thank you, I agree, all schools should require a minimum 20 hours on a "trainer/toy" kite before even contemplating a lesson.

Ha! I doubt ANY instructor out there would be keeping students for that long on just a trainer alone. They would go somewhere else. You're talking effectively 10 lessons on just a trainer! LMAO

@ Kazan
He means 20 yours on your own in a park or on a beach away from other people practicing how to control a kite, learning the wind window, etc. He does not mean taking lesson on a trainer kite, that would be a total rip off.
But taking lessons from "qualified" instructors, that are deeply involved with their own importance, and who's primary goal is to get you to take as many confidence inspired lessons with them, parting with your hard earned every time.

@ Cauncy
We don't use trainers at all, we use Ozone Uno's when its windy enough for them and too windy for something bigger, we teach in up to 30 knots, but there are no foil trainer kites in our school. The results we get prove our method is sound.
Rigging is one thing, learning to fly a kite properly, with great confidence is another. Rigging can be learned in one or two sessions, kite control cannot. Only a very basic level of control (if at all) can be learned in a 2 hr kite lesson. People will be on the board in "no time" (your words not mine) can only happen if people have excellent kite control skills otherwise you will be on the board and then just after that the kite will be in the water!
The purpose of stating my experience is to qualify my argument, if someone chooses to be embarrassed by my statement, don't you think they are the one with the problem?

Steve you are only now using this thread to attack me and my credibility. You know zero about how I teach and how competent my students become. You have hijacked this thread for your own agenda perhaps fulfilling some deep seated Freudian paranoia the fact that Laurie allows this to continue. That is your attacks on others not just me deserves some explanation.

Steve I know you mean well and you provide some fantastic advice given your years of experience.

But your tone at times comes across as condescending. I'm sure that may not be your intention but I feel that may be the source of the issue here.

Maybe ??

I bet DunkerT didn't expect a 3 page answer and all the angst to his question of why there are so few trainer kites for sale, the question was answered in the first two responses!! FFS can we move on.

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Kitepower Australia said..

The purpose of stating my experience is to qualify my argument, if someone chooses to be embarrassed by my statement, don't you think they are the one with the problem?

that's the thing though is that your experience doesn't qualify your argument, it's a justification for you being right (not saying you aren't), there is actually a technical term for this in debate but I can't remember it (which incidentally is not generally considered to be strong argument). It's like me saying that I have 15years experience in my chosen profession.....doesn't mean I'm good at it (doesn't mean I'm not either) or that I'm never wrong.

I learnt on a 5m LEI, later bought trainers (cause they're fun) including an ozone uno, what I don't get is what difference you see in a 5m LEI and an uno (comes in 2.5 and 4 incidentally)? yeah the 2.5 doesn't have a huge amount of grunt but in essence I can't see the difference between it and 5m LEI they can and do, do the same thing, in fact I still find the 5m somewhat easier to handle in lighter winds.

There are good cheap trainers out there, the $20 ebay jobs can be hit and miss (some fly as good as anything I've bought since and some don't fly at all), there are others in the $100-150 range which are great (including the one vwpete linked), I wouldn't get hung up on the 3rd line while it is a nice feature from a safety perspective the result is the same if it's hitting the fan just let go of the thing and then there's more expensive stuff (Ozone foils, uno, rise 2m inflatable and no doubt many others). They are all great fun and good to have around for friends, family etc. personally I got some value from mine as I had LONG periods of time off the water and they helped me get flying time which did help my flying but maybe not absolutely necessary in all circumstances.

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Slashrockson said..

I bet DunkerT didn't expect a 3 page answer and all the angst to his question of why there are so few trainer kites for sale, the question was answered in the first two responses!! FFS can we move on.

Yep and incidentally there's a few in the B&S at the moment

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RAL INN said..

Steve you are only now using this thread to attack me and my credibility. You know zero about how I teach and how competent my students become. You have hijacked this thread for your own agenda perhaps fulfilling some deep seated Freudian paranoia the fact that Laurie allows this to continue. That is your attacks on others not just me deserves some explanation.

This is ridiculous Tony Lorenz, yep that is RAL INN's real name.

Prior to his last unnecessary and stupidly aggressive post, I thought wow this is crazy I'll send him a private message and suggested he call me if he has a problem with me, guess what no call just another personal attack post.
I also reminded Tony that my family and I donated a few hundred dollars to him when he was caught up in the fires in Vic several years ago, and he still chose to attack.
Its not my problem, I'm just trying to help.

@Eppo, - Maybe there is no tone in typed messages on a forum, and maybe - see above.

@ Blueprint - Just trying to make my messages as unambiguous as possible, not trying to wind debates. Fly any kite, small enough that it won't loft you, for 20 hrs on your own somewhere that you will not harm others, then go get lessons from an instructor that listens to you, and adjust their teaching specifically for you, you'll only need 1-3 lessons with someone like this, thereby saving money, and getting on the water getting real experience sooner with your own gear.

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Kitepower Australia said..

Just trying to make my messages as unambiguous as possible, not trying to wind debates. Fly any kite, small enough that it won't loft you, for 20 hrs on your own somewhere that you will not harm others, then go get lessons from an instructor that listens to you, and adjust their teaching specifically for you, you'll only need 1-3 lessons with someone like this, thereby saving money, and getting on the water getting real experience sooner with your own gear.

Then why turn this into a pissing contest that's going nowhere? (or perhaps it is (locked thread)

Last part of your response is great and goes to the heart of the message that I thought Tony was trying to convey...... spend the time flying, safely, with a good instructor and you'll be getting the best start in the sport you can....

(Disclaimer: Tony RAL INN is a personal friend)

Steve, Mate:

1. I know you have a business to run but your opinions would hold so much more credibility if you were not pimping Ozone so hard in each post.

2. Bagging out and making unfounded allegations regarding someones business and professionalism just because you disagree with their opinion is not cool. I have seen Tony successfully train multiple kite surfers over the year. Sure his methods are better suited to guys who are keen to give it a real crack but thats no bad thing when you consider the people out there kiting every year that have no business being anywhere near the sport.

Peace

Well that's the thing. Steve provides some extremely useful information but at times (like all of us I must say) the message can get a little personal.

But at least he's not one of those spineless ck sucking cowards who just red or green thumb or worse create multiple identities to red and greent thumb their own asses.

He says what he says and stands up against his own name with his own business. No hiding. Respect.

But.... Steve come on you do 'get into' crew now and then you must admit.

Simple facts relating to this thread. I mentioned Ozone once with full disclosure, but I was about the 3rd or 4th person to mention Ozone trainer kites.

RAL INN - went on the attack at me first, made some boasts I knew were wrong so I called him on it. This is the same guy that boasted he could out boost anyone in Sydney years ago, came up here and knocked himself unconscious, was rescued and possibly even had his life saved by a local, I took him home (later found out he went to hospital, but would not let me take him there). Has issues with me, no idea what and why and don't care now anyway?

If I'm guilty of calling a spade a spade, so be it. As chopper says harden the F up and get over it.

If I'm wrong I'll admit it. I've agreed with VWPete, because he makes a sound argument and does not do the personal attack thing, and I respect everyone's right to express their opinion. My way is not the only way, however I know that it offers significant cost savings and faster learning for the majority of people getting into the sport.

I'm going kiting for the 7th day in row, might be the 8th I'm getting tired!

This thread is now almost as ridiculous as the pilots getting knocked out by a boat thread

Steve you need to read back and see when you started your attacks in this thread. The claims re my out boosting Sydney is utter unsubstantiated lying on your part as is the unconscious statement and the hospital comment. Yes I have a problem with your slanderous attacks on my professional credibility who wouldn't . Pulling the "I donated to a bushfire fund" card is just outright low. Did you think it bought you the right to stop me having an opinion? Well my opinion now of you is even lower.

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blueprint said..

Kitepower Australia said..

The purpose of stating my experience is to qualify my argument, if someone chooses to be embarrassed by my statement, don't you think they are the one with the problem?

that's the thing though is that your experience doesn't qualify your argument, it's a justification for you being right (not saying you aren't), there is actually a technical term for this in debate but I can't remember it (which incidentally is not generally considered to be strong argument). It's like me saying that I have 15years experience in my chosen profession.....doesn't mean I'm good at it (doesn't mean I'm not either) or that I'm never wrong.

I learnt on a 5m LEI, later bought trainers (cause they're fun) including an ozone uno, what I don't get is what difference you see in a 5m LEI and an uno (comes in 2.5 and 4 incidentally)? yeah the 2.5 doesn't have a huge amount of grunt but in essence I can't see the difference between it and 5m LEI they can and do, do the same thing, in fact I still find the 5m somewhat easier to handle in lighter winds.

There are good cheap trainers out there, the $20 ebay jobs can be hit and miss (some fly as good as anything I've bought since and some don't fly at all), there are others in the $100-150 range which are great (including the one vwpete linked), I wouldn't get hung up on the 3rd line while it is a nice feature from a safety perspective the result is the same if it's hitting the fan just let go of the thing and then there's more expensive stuff (Ozone foils, uno, rise 2m inflatable and no doubt many others). They are all great fun and good to have around for friends, family etc. personally I got some value from mine as I had LONG periods of time off the water and they helped me get flying time which did help my flying but maybe not absolutely necessary in all circumstances.

I think you're actually after ad hominem in this case but regardless this whole thread has been a waste of my precious internets.

I love Ozone.


Feel the love people! FEEL IT!

Not all trainers are expensive.
PL ones start at $125 with a bar - www.briskites.com.au/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1356

If you really want to save then buy a kite without a bar that is flown on straps. If you really want it on a bar just connect the straps to a cut down broom stick -www.briskites.com.au/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1370