$gme to moon

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Gorgo said..
I recently retired from paragliding after 30 years of pretty full-on involvement. The reason wasn't safety, although there were some recent events that were cause for concern. And it wasn't cost, even though it costs at least $100 an hour to go flying.

The real reason was logisitics.

ive heard it should be called para-waiting

To dox myself without doxing myself matey

Im easily the best kitesurfer thats ever herded up a mob of emus at newyears day with a car full of diesel additives from the center cabin

Oh and incase you have thought about it dont bloody fly at gillies range that **** is RIDICULOUS with the exception of maybe one the noiseiest pilots to ever grace manilla with theyre presence anyone else on a doona either climbs up and shoots straight over the back in sheer fear cause you essentially launch into tiger country with a bees dick of a chance of makeing it to that "bomb out" which ive never even been able to see.

One of the only launches i would gladly write off as hangys only

Damn i wish i could get back up that way i miss it bloody freezeing down here in qld

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Froth Goth said..
Hello! I understand you're looking for statistical data on paragliding and hang gliding fatalities in Australia from 2002 to 2024.

Your stats seem to be from a chatbot. Note the assumption is that each pilot owns two wings. So when someone says "paraglider" do they mean the pilot or the wing?

Let us assume up to 4x deaths per year, and only ~3,000 pilots total in Aus.

That would put the stats at 100,000 / 3,000 = 30x.

4 x 30 = 120x deaths per 100,000 people pa (max).

I have attached some stats on member numbers. I got these via freedom of info (FOI) from CASA.

PS. the origin story of CASA as a bonus

Hahahahaha ahhhhh dude you have made my day!!! matey ill be haveing fun looking over these

I was gonna join your ahhh new hgfa doesnt look like it was worth fleshing out but still glad ya went where no one else seems to have dared.

For all the hubub talked about xxxxxx flying xxxkms why arent we talking about xxxxxxx who tried to make flying FREE again (or least far cheaper)

If every hobby was housed like surfing i would feel much better. Were ment to be picking berrys and luring kangaroos into coles bags after all

I dont care what everyone says about ya i think your alright

Im grounded until july down here work commitment wise and then i gotto handle the misses but im hopeing to get a jaunt upto archers / cooky after that ill have to show ya around cairns i know ya think ya know it but no one knows it like i do one of the small priveledges of having built the bloody place


The ambassador for weightshifters

So real rap

I think you may have been in manilla when we had .... god i forget his name but i want to say bernie? Was there he was a recent student old man bald head with grey friar tuck style hair would fly in grey sweat pants.

Anyways he was teaching the airforce how to fly jets for decades i never really seen him again after that 1 season... but i bet he would be quite interesting to ask about casa etc im not sure if im reading it correctly at the end there but they basically were makeing it hard for civilians to be involved and only wanted it to be all ex military... i could probably figure out his name as i remember me and br3ndan fr@ser wete flying together with hin wouldnt be too hard to go back thru the logs

I was unaware of them trying to push civialians out of aviation but it certaintly makes a bit of sense hmmmmm

You sure dont go fishing for rats and flattys do ya always after the big fellas

I had kite students who flew jets at rainbow and they had zero idea anyone paraglided there... and they would fly below us pushing off the ridgeline i was always told if anyone ever complained they would simply ban paragliding there

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Froth Goth said..
I had kite students who flew jets at rainbow and they had zero idea anyone paraglided there... and they would fly below us pushing off the ridgeline i was always told if anyone ever complained they would simply ban paragliding there

Yeah, it's their arrogance that annoys me the most.

I have joined the Libertarian Party (formerly LDP) over the whole ordeal + the 'rona lockdowns too.

That jet pilot might be called C a r l C r o f t - if so, i met up with him a few months ago actually.

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skinduptruk said..

supguythesecond said..

Do people ever pass out from the force the spin?
have you ever been in one of those spins with 4 seconds to make the right call?

yes + yes.

btw where do u kitesurf at Sup Guy II?

I don't. Mate does.

William montgomery

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supguythesecond said..
I don't. Mate does.

looking at ur first post again, please tell us the story you heard re downdraft? who / where / when / etc?

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Froth Goth said..
William montgomery

uv lost me?! and pla pm me - so i know who ya be!

Froth, you make a compelling argument for why one shouldn't get into paragliding.

So why do you still do it yourself? Is it because of the kicks? Or because of the community and camaraderie? Just curious what makes you remain part of it when you seem so keenly aware of the risks.

As someone who has just started dabbling in paragliding you have reinforced my suspicions and made me reconsider. Thanks.

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skinduptruk said..

supguythesecond said..
I don't. Mate does.

looking at ur first post again, please tell us the story you heard re downdraft? who / where / when / etc?

Again it's a fourth hand story so take it for what it is. Bloke was up, I am guessing it was above 500m and an unexpected, is it downdraft, forced him down and and he died. By down draft I'm mean, simplified, the sky pushed him down onto the ground suddenly, as if the winds was going down instead of sideways. Like I said fourth hand and not sure any of it makes sense. It sounded like it wasn't a collapse but some random wind event taking him out of the sky regardless of skill. Could it be a sheer? Like I said I don't know the sport and it's a fourth hand story.

Hahahahahahahhaha

Well no offense but your information has been jumped on more then late 90s gaky speed sold to a highschooler

I can actually hear how the 1st hand explanation was too micrometeological for the non pilot to get it so they dumbed it down abit and then same for the 2nd hand and third hand and then now 4th and 5th will be trying to fathom what the first guy really said.

Ahhhhh so thats a down draft ay

And here i was thinking god sent some bloke a waterspout out of no where like a finger of death

So what happened to old mate is probably just very very normal everyday flying inland.

The wind is vertical there it was probably just a punchy day maybe even a boomer which means an equal amount of sink for all that lift.

So if the hot air bubbles are shooting up off the flatlands due to a stack of cows moveing across the paddock or a mob of some kangaroos bounceing about theyll actually trigger all this latent hot air that kinda sticks to the earth until something comes along and disturbs it and just like disturbing little water bubbles in the bottom of a pot theyll rise up

But sometimes the entire paddock worth of hot air will rise up at once this means all the air above it needs to be displaced to make way so that colder air tends to move down towards the earth around that hot air...

We really need pictures...

But yeah id say that story is just about a coastal pilot haveing a go at inland flying useually with the goal of getting theyre first 100km flight inland but instead they got caught out by some large sink.

Being in sinking air for me is actually a pleasent and nice feeling because all i want is to hold a bottle of vodka over my head for as long as i can after ive just been thrown around and fighting for my life in a ripper of a thermal

So i dont think it was the sink that killed him it would of been that fun little area that is both lift and sink at same time when you have fallen out of the back of a thermal


That or homeboy was a skydiver and had way too much break on and stalled so (down draft?") Was blamed.

Oh thats a good point.
When anyone dies...
we just all murmur...
Pilot error.... pilot error ....

What this is ment to mean is it wasnt a fault from equipment or from some other unknown force... but how it gets used is .... hay i was giving good instruction the pilot just wasnt doing what i said amd now hes dead.

Its a very effective handwash so effective during covid i didnt even need a mask i could just walk into the iga in manilla and mutter about pilot error and the covid was just magically washed away with all my responsibilitys reguarding safety

(just kidding we actually had the cops rock up and try arrest a couple guys at the farm cause they wore theyre flying buffs rather then cloth masks then argued with the staff over it )

So yeah saying pilot error nearly washes anything away

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supguythesecond said..

...

Again it's a fourth hand story so take it for what it is. Bloke was up, I am guessing it was above 500m and an unexpected, is it downdraft, forced him down and and he died. By down draft I'm mean, simplified, the sky pushed him down onto the ground suddenly, as if the winds was going down instead of sideways. Like I said fourth hand and not sure any of it makes sense. It sounded like it wasn't a collapse but some random wind event taking him out of the sky regardless of skill. Could it be a sheer? Like I said I don't know the sport and it's a fourth hand story.

When I started paragliding in 1990 a friend told me this same story, which is a little bit ironic. We hadn't learned stay up for long at the time so the chances of being in the air long enough to get slammed to our deaths was very slim.

I can't say it's not impossible, but nah. Its virtually impossible. A downdraft strong enough to slam you down from a great height would be a microburst attached to a gust front. You'd notice the big scary purple throbbing mushroom shaped cloud about to hit you. You'd also be more likely to get sucked up to 10,000m.

More realistically, the most common causes of death I am familiar with are: very low altitude turbulence followed by a cascade and slamming into the ground; running into power lines and slamming into the ground; forgetting to fasten leg straps and falling from the harness.

There was one guy who pulled a flat out spiral and spiralled all the way to the ground. He almost died, from a staph infection in the hospital. He was hung over, not very fit, not very good pilot. I think he over did the spiral and blacked/zoned out. You can pull 8G in a fairly strong spiral. Even of couple of G for a short period can be a bit of an endurance test. There's techniques for slowing down big spirals so you go down fast but don't spin too fast.

I knew people who died from all of them, and people who have had those incidents and survived, including me.

So, yes paragliding is dangerous. No, you're extremely unlikely to get killed just flying along minding your own business. Yes, everything is often attributed to pilot error. No, pilot errors tend to start benignly and cascade into a life threatening event. It's a bit self-delusory to write off other people's accidents as pilot error because they're crap pilots (some were crap, some were world class).

You guys need to go to France or Switzerland. Every town near a mountain has a paragliding site with top and bottom cafes/bars, shuttle buses and cable cars, people from 12-80 flying every day.

Thanks for translateing my gibberish into something more legabel gorgo

But yep exactly what gorgo said.

Ive got 99 problems but downdraft aint one

Ive been practiceing pulling big ears on one side then holding it the entire time dureing the spiral dive it seems weird at first but it works i do it happily on my xc wing i havent got the balls to try it on the miniw?ng yet too many close calls on that thing just droping and locking ?nto spirals so damn easily we bloody need some mountains in this country maybe towing or drop bagging will become more affordable somehow

Italy austria and slovenia etc also has the cafe at the landing field culture going with the beers in the paper bag labels and all that good food of course my lifetime flying goal was changed forever at the vegan cafe in lijak slovenia 4 old men none younger then 70 sitting around discussing what they were going to eat for lunch i couldnt understand much but i could understand that they were museing over menus with meat dishes... at a vegan cafe... me being me i was already a few beers in while they were only on coffees and croissants decided to ask what the hell is with this locals only menu that has meat on it?!?

Turns out they keep copys of the menus from all around the baby alps and they fly together to one the restaurants to eat lunch.

Thats when i decided (was nurseing a bit of a fear injury i was unaware of in hindsight) that i dont amd didnt ever want to be the best xc piloy in the world but if i could just get good enough at flying where i could nonchalantly fly to whichever restaurant i wanted to to eat a particular sandwhich then thats the level of pilot i would be happy to be.

But i also knew i was never going to get to that level just hanging out in the nursery and i was gonna have to throw down with the sharks if i wanted to be able to handle some accidently fohn etc etc


Was always funny talking to the euro pilots about all my fears of storms building up and joining and sending us all accidently into out of space where as they had been flying for decades and never heard of or encounted such a thing its all just ridgeline milkruns for them i did a little towing in poland felt more australian and familular up there still gotto get myself to bulgaria / moldova and back to ukraine when that settles down might be ahwhile since the slovakian PM just got shot

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Gorgo said..


When I started paragliding in 1990 a friend told me this same story, which is a little bit ironic. We hadn't learned stay up for long at the time so the chances of being in the air long enough to get slammed to our deaths was very slim.

I can't say it's not impossible, but nah. Its virtually impossible. A downdraft strong enough to slam you down from a great height would be a microburst attached to a gust front. You'd notice the big scary purple throbbing mushroom shaped cloud about to hit you. You'd also be more likely to get sucked up to 10,000m.

More realistically, the most common causes of death I am familiar with are: very low altitude turbulence followed by a cascade and slamming into the ground; running into power lines and slamming into the ground; forgetting to fasten leg straps and falling from the harness.

There was one guy who pulled a flat out spiral and spiralled all the way to the ground. He almost died, from a staph infection in the hospital. He was hung over, not very fit, not very good pilot. I think he over did the spiral and blacked/zoned out. You can pull 8G in a fairly strong spiral. Even of couple of G for a short period can be a bit of an endurance test. There's techniques for slowing down big spirals so you go down fast but don't spin too fast.

I knew people who died from all of them, and people who have had those incidents and survived, including me.

So, yes paragliding is dangerous. No, you're extremely unlikely to get killed just flying along minding your own business. Yes, everything is often attributed to pilot error. No, pilot errors tend to start benignly and cascade into a life threatening event. It's a bit self-delusory to write off other people's accidents as pilot error because they're crap pilots (some were crap, some were world class).

You guys need to go to France or Switzerland. Every town near a mountain has a paragliding site with top and bottom cafes/bars, shuttle buses and cable cars, people from 12-80 flying every day.

Microburst! That's the word I was looking for. Thanks Gorgo.

I C A R U S - sporty low save this morning

free demo available at icarus.fan

*

www.facebook.com/share/v/UdSwUy89sfxYVNa4/?

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Gorgo said..

supguythesecond said..

...

Again it's a fourth hand story so take it for what it is. Bloke was up, I am guessing it was above 500m and an unexpected, is it downdraft, forced him down and and he died. By down draft I'm mean, simplified, the sky pushed him down onto the ground suddenly, as if the winds was going down instead of sideways. Like I said fourth hand and not sure any of it makes sense. It sounded like it wasn't a collapse but some random wind event taking him out of the sky regardless of skill. Could it be a sheer? Like I said I don't know the sport and it's a fourth hand story.

There was one guy who pulled a flat out spiral and spiralled all the way to the ground.

yeah about half of the stories involve a spiral without exiting the spiral and/or throwing the reserve in time to deploy.

Ive had plenty of little bullet gusts dont forget those things felt like my wing got harrdukend

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Froth Goth said..
Ive had plenty of little bullet gusts dont forget those things felt like my wing got harrdukend

was it you that said? when u glide into the lee side of the hill, it was "like having a toddler on red cordial running around on top of ur wing" lol

Hahahaha yep that was me

You got a good memory

It really does feel like that in bad rotor ill watch as groups of cells start getting compressed etc etc

Its very common to not want to bomb in the west bank and to cut thru that saddle low in desperation.


Bloody dzieci smiecis on my wing i swear coming thru low thru that saddle the kids live there its theyre home.

Sadly thats where my friends dads partner died pretty much doing exactly that. Think she was like late 50s early 60s and then of course he who is higher up then god still says no ones ever died in manilla even have heard people say he stated there hadnt been any accidents there or something along those lines

There was a lawyer from noosa that broke his legs there during a course i had to drive him around to the hospital and back every few days ive never seen godfrey sweat before had to kinda like explain without this place theres a few dozen of us homeless pilots who wont have anywhere to go etc etc not aure what ever happened but yeah crazy

Murmurs are that yeppoons the next sunnycoast for flying seeing as we lost our 3 main sites here cartys sunrise and sunshine all gone in last 12 months so we either gotto buy 4wds to use teewah or get extorted to financial ruin and join the canungra club on goldy

Hello Everyone !

My name is Godfrey Wenness, a paraglider pilot and instructor based in Manilla, NSW.

I have been flying for 36 years (virtually since the beginning of the sport). I enjoyed it so much that I bought and developed a site, ran annual international competitions (inc the World Champs in 2007), set up a school and have taught over 2000 people to fly.

My reply here is only to provide correct information for those interested.

I also don't need to hide behind a screen name on a forum. You can check out my CV on my website if you feel the need. PM me for the link. I stand by my reputation and expertise, and provide the following comments.

I have been watching this thread with some amusement. Some of the contributors would know me and some have obviously been to my place to fly.

Many of the comments on here about the airsport of Paragliding however vary from wholly misinformed, to the absurd and often ridiculous.

As with anything on these forums you cant believe everything you read. The anonymous keyboard warriors and trolls often have limited experience, vested interests or are just stirring the pot. Some even simply have gripes to air, and feel better about themselves in doing so to overcome some personal short comings or bad experiences.

For the benefit of the OP and other readers I will for clarity answer a few Q's which I see as the most misinformed so far. They are regarding cost and safety, the usual factors one considers when looking at a more extreme sport. The Q re 'enjoyment' is highly subjective, that's for others to provide some opinions on as it relates to kite surfing etc.

COST :

The gear consists of a glider, harness and usually also a reserve parachute. Each have varying lifespans.

A new entry level glider costs around $4k and will last in normal use around 400hrs (for a reputable quality brand). That gives a cost of $10/hr.

A new harness costs around $1500. They have a lifespan based on condition which typically can be 15-25 years. My personal, and still current, harness for example is 23 years old and has over 7000hrs on it. Others may choose to change models more often as new tech comes along. Taking the base line 15 years we get a use cost of $100 p/a.

A new reserve parachute costs around $700-800 and can last on condition well over 20 years. There is a generally accepted, but often debated, "official" lifespan of 15 years, with proper 6 monthly repacks and checks. This gives an approx. cost of $50 p/a.

The harness and reserve combined at $150 p/a can be converted to a per hour cost based on what a pilot might log each year. For this discussion the average annual hours that a novice pilot logs is known to be around 25hrs. This gives a cost of $6/hr.

The complete set up thus has a usage cost of $16/hr for an average novice pilot. Obviously you can buy used equipment for much less than new, from around $2k is a good starting point for a set that is from a modern recent design generation.

LICENSE and SITE COSTS:

Like most aviation, the airsport of Paragliding is highly regulated and that comes with its own set of costs.

A 9+ Day license course is around $2500-3000.

The annual membership of the CASA vested governing body which issues licenses here in Aus (SAFA) varies depending on your state, around $400-500. That includes $20m 3rd party liability insurance which is required to fly most public and private sites.

The site's, as noted, can be public or private and many are leased or controlled by local clubs. Site infrastructure, maintenance and leases cost $$'s, hence clubs need to charge a site fee. It very much depends on the costs as to the level of that fee. In NSW for example, the State Association (which everyone in NSW is automatically a member of via their SAFA m/ship) pays for all state clubs site fee's for its members provided they are a member of at least 1 club.

Naturally you can fly for free anywhere you like outside those more controlled sites which have inherent costs.

SAFETY:

This one always comes up and is easily answered without needing to revert to misinformed, emotive and anecdotal accident examples.

A previous poster has supplied some actual accident/incident statistics. Note that such statistics usually don't provide a good overview of accidents that are not fatal - they could be a simple bruise, cut or sprain, all the way to serious or life changing. The analysis of such statistics is also difficult in comparison to other sports or activities due to differing parameters used. Should it be number of people flying, the hours they fly, the actual amount of flights etc ? There is no easy, accurate or evening meaningful analysis to rank risk or safety for anyone to make comparative decisions on.

There is no doubt however that lawn bowls is a few orders of magnitude safer than paragliding, but then again so are the rewards one reaps from the experience.

As with any activity the participant can make it as safe or as dangerous as they wish.

Aviation always has a stigma associated with it, and sports aviation more so. There are over 200k paraglider pilots flying around the world, the number has been steadily increasing since the 1990's. Hang gliding has been in steep decline due to the portability, improving performance and safety, and higher quality training of Paragliding, particularly since the mid 1990's.

Pilot error is the main cause of accidents in Paragliding. The equipment very rarely fails.

Globally over the past 30 years there have been less than 10 fatal accidents I am aware of reported back to certifying authorities due to some type of structural failure. Most of those could have been prevented by a proper pre-flight check of equipment, deployment of the reserve parachute or simply not engaging in risky flight manoeuvres on inappropriate equipment in the first place.

The usual swiss cheese mode of fatal and non fatal accidents is a pilot flying a glider model above their skill level, and in conditions above their skill level or in risky situations (eg rough air close to terrain). This is essentially poor decision making. Then compounding this they fail to react correctly to either exit the situation, or deploy the reserve parachute in time. Combined it is classic pilot error.

The only situation which would be difficult to avoid is an unseen dust devil (whirly wind) or violent thermal rising up from below at low level on landing approach or flying close to terrain. Accidents from this are extremely rare. The dust devils and strong thermals however occur in certain atmospheric conditions at certain times of the day, and can usually be seen, so the risk can be effectively reduced. It's a bit like knowing what time of day or conditions sharks are likely to be in the water, enter at your own peril. Skiing back country in avalanche prone conditions is also similar. Understanding and assessing the weather and other conditions are as important to ensure safety as they are in any outdoor sport.

You can fly a paraglider for many years well into old age and never have an accident or injury if you elect to fly safely in the right conditions using equipment suited to your skill level. Pilots who elect to go racing or highly challenge themselves will usually have an incident or maybe even an accident at some stage - just like with the competitive version of any sport when you push the limits.

I equate the potential risk of accident/injury in Paragliding for a properly trained pilot on suitable equipment as around the equivalent to Skiing or Mountain bike riding. Make it as risky as you like.

Thank you for reading the above. I hope for those interested in factual information it has assisted your formation of an opinion into the airsport of Paragliding.

Happy kiting and flying to all.

I also separately need to comment on some defamatory and wholly incorrect remarks made by a certain poster regarding myself and my school.

It was claimed by "Froth Goth" that:

"There was a lawyer from noosa that broke his legs there during a course"

This is simply false.

In over 30 years of teaching this has never happened. At worst when someone falls over awkwardly on a training slope run or a landing, we have seen cuts, bruises, and muscle strains. Very rarely a wrist or ankle sprain/frac has also occurred. This comes with the territory of learning any outdoor sport.

There was also this by the same poster:

"Bloody dzieci smiecis on my wing i swear coming thru low thru that saddle the kids live there its theyre home. Sadly thats where my friends dads partner died pretty much doing exactly that. Think she was like late 50s early 60s and then of course he who is higher up then god still says no ones ever died in manilla even have heard people say he stated there hadnt been any accidents there or something along those lines"

Again some misinformation and straight out false claims.

The lady pilot that died a few years ago flew in perfectly smooth conditions all the way. She impacted the ground near a main landing area due to her over controlling the glider resulting in a spin. It was sadly 100% pilot error and nothing else related to equipment, conditions or the site.

The claim that I have said "no ones ever died in manilla" is also simply nonsensical.

I have written a sum total of 6 well documented accident reports for SAFA and the Coroner on the fatalities that have occurred here and nearby over the past 30 years. Each and every one was wholly pilot error.

Thanks for the posts Godfrey and I also commend you for having the patience to actually read froth goths verbal diarrhoea posts

Well Im quite as a mouse on paraglidingforum.com where we use real names but if you take a trip to heavy weather section on seabreeze youll see the level of artitstry that flows here i think some of the longest conversations i have read on seabreaze have been between someone poseing as 2 different people but talking to themself

Good to see youve joined the chat tho godfrey ?? dont think theres anyone else higher up in the aus paragliding world then you

Just so you know tho majority of these guys want to buy parakites cause theyre "safer" because theyre more collapse resistent so its best to simmer them with a few squirts of the spray bottle

Kind of excited now this could be a pool room thread

Theres quite a lot of flat earthers here


Wo thats alot to read people are gonna think were twins

Talk about sweating bullets when i got called out by godfrey! hahaha

Sorry for the misinformation matey

Hahaha made me straighten up and tuck my shirt in

I ahhh tend to post while incredibly inhebriated the verbal diarrhea flows more readily so ill come back in a few hours but yeah

I cant remember how to say it right now in polish but essentially the son does not teach the father how to make a child

Few more vodkas and ill be able to recall it

Not every day we get a world record breaker in here thats for sure

I feel like when you are walking around the rock pool eating algae chillin then someone comes along so you hide under a coral head and you have all your bases covered claws out and then a giant just picks up the coral and your left there nibbing the air wildly with ya pincers




Laurie we need to bring back the heavy weather section real life is bleeding back into seabreeze life again



Also Casa may be watching ... so ahhhh just nuke all my posts after archieveing

we might have to move this all where theyll never find us

I cant believe im.about to say this

But lets all go to the wing ding section!

Wonder if that entire sport is just a front for something else theres certaintly no surfers in the surfing forum that much i know.

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Phoney said..
Thanks for the posts Godfrey and I also commend you for having the patience to actually read froth goths verbal diarrhoea posts

Me and the G have had a few beers believe it or not probably more 10 years ago then more recently maybe even a bit of a boogy, revealing my dance moves would instantly dox me but ill just say its a pretty amazing place

Ive never wondered who phoney was before hmmmm... ...
no idea who *el *itz**rald is either ... that was pretty easy....

No ones really anonymous if your a network engineer

Im gonna go grab some crabs and hold a bottle over my head

"The opinions and information I provide are solely my own and do not reflect the views of any organization or individual. I am not a legal or medical professional, and my responses should not be considered as professional advice. I am not liable for any consequences or damages resulting from my posts, and I post with the understanding that users rely on my information at their own risk."

Ai is gonna change the world

But seriosly whatever godfrey says is pretty much right

All im saying is

My moto in kitesurfing is

Step 1 : unhook "

And

If your not crashing your not training! "

If that was my moto in paragliding you would all be saved alot of eye pain and brain aches from reading my stuff