Hi Peeps,

There are big differences between foil and LEI kites and it isn't just the weight. Projected power for tube kites is far less than a foil due to the heavy "C" shaped arc of the kite, aspect ratio also plays a big part. Hi aspect (Ram air foils) turn more slowly and are more susceptible to changes in wind direction and gusts when standing still, but when at speed, they generate their own power and apparent wind direction through their speed making them much easier to control that when at rest. This is coupled with high aspect low drag efficient wings to produce speeds sometimes triple wind speed. The twin skins of the foil enable it to fly much faster with less drag. The lower aspect Clouds provide a fast turning, generally stable, power on demand style flying which suits wave and freeride much better than a high aspect Foil.

Unfortunately the wind at Melville yesterday was not light at all with the average probably around 12 knots, gusting to 15 or 16 and lulling down to maybe 8 knots. I was very comfortable on my 11.5 on 18m lines in the lulls and averages, but was pretty well lit up to the max in the gusts (at speed on a cross wind reach).

Bletti turned up and flew his 13.4 Cloud, he also looked well powered. There was really little point in comparing the two in the conditions we had (and I was knackered after almost 2 hours on the water before he turned up). Bletti was using a manouvreable freeride and surf foil and I, and most others, advanced freeride or race foils, two very different styles requiring different kites. It was good to catch up and see the difference in gear.

Comparing a cloud used on a wave with wave foil board, to a ram air foil with race board and foil on a race circuit is pointless. They are both excellent in their own environment. When I go to Mauritius in July, I will be taking North Mono's for wave and free riding.

I think at the end of this discussion, as mentioned by Bigtone in a previous post, runjase needs to specify what kind of foiling he is interested in as the riding style will be a much greater determining factor for the best kite for light wind, rather than the "Best" kite for light winds.

See ya's above the water ;-)

DM

Macster said..

ActionSportsWA said..
Hi Peeps,

There are big differences between foil and LEI kites and it isn't just the weight. Projected power for tube kites is far less than a foil due to the heavy "C" shaped arc of the kite, aspect ratio also plays a big part. Hi aspect (Ram air foils) turn more slowly and are more susceptible to changes in wind direction and gusts when standing still, but when at speed, they generate their own power and apparent wind direction through their speed making them much easier to control that when at rest. This is coupled with high aspect low drag efficient wings to produce speeds sometimes triple wind speed. The twin skins of the foil enable it to fly much faster with less drag. The lower aspect Clouds provide a fast turning, generally stable, power on demand style flying which suits wave and freeride much better than a high aspect Foil.

Unfortunately the wind at Melville yesterday was not light at all with the average probably around 12 knots, gusting to 15 or 16 and lulling down to maybe 8 knots. I was very comfortable on my 11.5 on 18m lines in the lulls and averages, but was pretty well lit up to the max in the gusts (at speed on a cross wind reach).

Bletti turned up and flew his 13.4 Cloud, he also looked well powered. There was really little point in comparing the two in the conditions we had (and I was knackered after almost 2 hours on the water before he turned up). Bletti was using a manouvreable freeride and surf foil and I, and most others, advanced freeride or race foils, two very different styles requiring different kites. It was good to catch up and see the difference in gear.

Comparing a cloud used on a wave with wave foil board, to a ram air foil with race board and foil on a race circuit is pointless. They are both excellent in their own environment. When I go to Mauritius in July, I will be taking North Mono's for wave and free riding.

I think at the end of this discussion, as mentioned by Bigtone in a previous post, runjase needs to specify what kind of foiling he is interested in as the riding style will be a much greater determining factor for the best kite for light wind, rather than the "Best" kite for light winds.

See ya's above the water ;-)

DM

Lol. So the foil killed the cloud?!

Joking aside, and sorry to whoever started this thread, it has evolved into a useful pros and cons of different makes and what works for people. I agree, there is no one solution for every foiler.

And to that end, I was going to sell my ocean rodeo flite 14.5m cause i hardly use it anymore when foiling but I think I have a master plan:

Im going to use my Flite in iffy wind that is 6-9 knots +. If the wind dies I have the advantage of an LEI to lay on whilst i wait for the wind to pick up.

I will use my 9m Hyperlink for 8-9 knots +

14 knots I ditch the foil, pump up the North Vegas and get on the twin tip for some freestyle.

Kiteboarding is an awesome sport with so many options for riders and conditions.

The only advice I can offer to the orginal poster is that I have tried some 30+ kites now and there's nothing I love more than experimenting and trying different models.

I have even been foiling on my Vegas (c kite) that was awkward but do-able.

Demo as many people's kites as you can and see what you like.

I have thought about dumping my big foil kites a few times now ... but...

The winds (10 to 12knots) arrival today coincided with a super low tide..... so I whipped out the 18m chrono and TT until mid tide. It was heap of fun jumping and riding the little ankle biters

Once mid tide hit, I flew the 13.4m Cloud and foil.

Both kite types still have a place in my armoury.

bigtone667 said..

Macster said..

ActionSportsWA said..
Hi Peeps,

There are big differences between foil and LEI kites and it isn't just the weight. Projected power for tube kites is far less than a foil due to the heavy "C" shaped arc of the kite, aspect ratio also plays a big part. Hi aspect (Ram air foils) turn more slowly and are more susceptible to changes in wind direction and gusts when standing still, but when at speed, they generate their own power and apparent wind direction through their speed making them much easier to control that when at rest. This is coupled with high aspect low drag efficient wings to produce speeds sometimes triple wind speed. The twin skins of the foil enable it to fly much faster with less drag. The lower aspect Clouds provide a fast turning, generally stable, power on demand style flying which suits wave and freeride much better than a high aspect Foil.

Unfortunately the wind at Melville yesterday was not light at all with the average probably around 12 knots, gusting to 15 or 16 and lulling down to maybe 8 knots. I was very comfortable on my 11.5 on 18m lines in the lulls and averages, but was pretty well lit up to the max in the gusts (at speed on a cross wind reach).

Bletti turned up and flew his 13.4 Cloud, he also looked well powered. There was really little point in comparing the two in the conditions we had (and I was knackered after almost 2 hours on the water before he turned up). Bletti was using a manouvreable freeride and surf foil and I, and most others, advanced freeride or race foils, two very different styles requiring different kites. It was good to catch up and see the difference in gear.

Comparing a cloud used on a wave with wave foil board, to a ram air foil with race board and foil on a race circuit is pointless. They are both excellent in their own environment. When I go to Mauritius in July, I will be taking North Mono's for wave and free riding.

I think at the end of this discussion, as mentioned by Bigtone in a previous post, runjase needs to specify what kind of foiling he is interested in as the riding style will be a much greater determining factor for the best kite for light wind, rather than the "Best" kite for light winds.

See ya's above the water ;-)

DM

Lol. So the foil killed the cloud?!

Joking aside, and sorry to whoever started this thread, it has evolved into a useful pros and cons of different makes and what works for people. I agree, there is no one solution for every foiler.

And to that end, I was going to sell my ocean rodeo flite 14.5m cause i hardly use it anymore when foiling but I think I have a master plan:

Im going to use my Flite in iffy wind that is 6-9 knots +. If the wind dies I have the advantage of an LEI to lay on whilst i wait for the wind to pick up.

I will use my 9m Hyperlink for 8-9 knots +

14 knots I ditch the foil, pump up the North Vegas and get on the twin tip for some freestyle.

Kiteboarding is an awesome sport with so many options for riders and conditions.

The only advice I can offer to the orginal poster is that I have tried some 30+ kites now and there's nothing I love more than experimenting and trying different models.

I have even been foiling on my Vegas (c kite) that was awkward but do-able.

Demo as many people's kites as you can and see what you like.

I have thought about dumping my big foil kites a few times now ... but...

The winds (10 to 12knots) arrival today coincided with a super low tide..... so I whipped out the 18m chrono and TT until mid tide. It was heap of fun jumping and riding the little ankle biters

Once mid tide hit, I flew the 13.4m Cloud and foil.

Both kite types still have a place in my armoury.

The common theme seems to be.... guys don't enjoy riding large kites period, on foils and prefer to build apparent wind using something slightly smaller because of the crap handling of large kites??

dachopper said..

bigtone667 said..

Macster said..

ActionSportsWA said..
Hi Peeps,

There are big differences between foil and LEI kites and it isn't just the weight. Projected power for tube kites is far less than a foil due to the heavy "C" shaped arc of the kite, aspect ratio also plays a big part. Hi aspect (Ram air foils) turn more slowly and are more susceptible to changes in wind direction and gusts when standing still, but when at speed, they generate their own power and apparent wind direction through their speed making them much easier to control that when at rest. This is coupled with high aspect low drag efficient wings to produce speeds sometimes triple wind speed. The twin skins of the foil enable it to fly much faster with less drag. The lower aspect Clouds provide a fast turning, generally stable, power on demand style flying which suits wave and freeride much better than a high aspect Foil.

Unfortunately the wind at Melville yesterday was not light at all with the average probably around 12 knots, gusting to 15 or 16 and lulling down to maybe 8 knots. I was very comfortable on my 11.5 on 18m lines in the lulls and averages, but was pretty well lit up to the max in the gusts (at speed on a cross wind reach).

Bletti turned up and flew his 13.4 Cloud, he also looked well powered. There was really little point in comparing the two in the conditions we had (and I was knackered after almost 2 hours on the water before he turned up). Bletti was using a manouvreable freeride and surf foil and I, and most others, advanced freeride or race foils, two very different styles requiring different kites. It was good to catch up and see the difference in gear.

Comparing a cloud used on a wave with wave foil board, to a ram air foil with race board and foil on a race circuit is pointless. They are both excellent in their own environment. When I go to Mauritius in July, I will be taking North Mono's for wave and free riding.

I think at the end of this discussion, as mentioned by Bigtone in a previous post, runjase needs to specify what kind of foiling he is interested in as the riding style will be a much greater determining factor for the best kite for light wind, rather than the "Best" kite for light winds.

See ya's above the water ;-)

DM

Lol. So the foil killed the cloud?!

Joking aside, and sorry to whoever started this thread, it has evolved into a useful pros and cons of different makes and what works for people. I agree, there is no one solution for every foiler.

And to that end, I was going to sell my ocean rodeo flite 14.5m cause i hardly use it anymore when foiling but I think I have a master plan:

Im going to use my Flite in iffy wind that is 6-9 knots +. If the wind dies I have the advantage of an LEI to lay on whilst i wait for the wind to pick up.

I will use my 9m Hyperlink for 8-9 knots +

14 knots I ditch the foil, pump up the North Vegas and get on the twin tip for some freestyle.

Kiteboarding is an awesome sport with so many options for riders and conditions.

The only advice I can offer to the orginal poster is that I have tried some 30+ kites now and there's nothing I love more than experimenting and trying different models.

I have even been foiling on my Vegas (c kite) that was awkward but do-able.

Demo as many people's kites as you can and see what you like.

I have thought about dumping my big foil kites a few times now ... but...

The winds (10 to 12knots) arrival today coincided with a super low tide..... so I whipped out the 18m chrono and TT until mid tide. It was heap of fun jumping and riding the little ankle biters

Once mid tide hit, I flew the 13.4m Cloud and foil.

Both kite types still have a place in my armoury.

The common theme seems to be.... guys don't enjoy riding large kites period, on foils and prefer to build apparent wind using something slightly smaller because of the crap handling of large kites??

I think everyone would prefer a smaller more agile kite provided they offered the qualites.... which for me is not the case. A mid size single strut kite will not have the float and and boost of a large foil kite. Someone else may prefer something different in any given conditions. That just means there is a wider choice, not a more correct choice.

dachopper said..
!!!!!!!!!!

Gunnar must have a lot of Euro kite tourists at his spot.
glad he's ok.
but he's right in that of all the water sports he mentioned, Kiters stand out as the least caring.
sure they will look out for those within their Little clique.
but as a whole we need to lift our game.

RAL INN said..


Gunnar must have a lot of Euro kite tourists at his spot.
glad he's ok.
but he's right in that of all the water sports he mentioned, Kiters stand out as the least caring.
sure they will look out for those within their Little clique.
but as a whole we need to lift our game.

Out of interest is this very different in Aus? Anecdotally its a bit of a mix here in the UK.

Went to help a friend (whose kite had inverted and was looping dragging him onto the beach) and kept getting buzzed by some dude who was jumping over the spit. So here I am running through the shallows with my own kite still in the air and I was having to stop and wait for some dude who was demanding priority as he kited through the shallows. We challenged him about it afterwards and he claimed to have not seen anything (yeah like you can't see a kite repeatedly looping 30m downwind of you). Left a bit of a bitter taste really as it was a local and you like to think that everyone from your area is that much better as a human being than the visitors.

Plenty of stories locally of people losing boards and kites attempting to save drowning people to balance it up. Been out to check on a few pole dancers when they were a long way out a couple of times. Always had a friendly thumbs up in response.

I had a line come loose on my LEI a couple times, but I wonder if it's worse when it happens on the foils after watching this?

I have done the experiment several times and I can absolutely assure you that a good light weight medium aspect foil kite (Pulsion 12 in my case) will stay up in the air during super low lulls better than a Cloud 13.4 or 13.5. My Clouds are 10.4 and smaller for that reason.

snalberski said..

DukeSilver said..
But for that 8 - 12 range, I think the HL will shine over a 12m LEI if only because it stays in the air.

I wouldn't count on a 9m necessarily having enough at 8 knts . My 9m Hyperlink gets me down to 12 no problem... by that I mean flying well with lowish boosting.... I have just ordered a 12m UL for 8-15 knt range which I am hoping will have me cranking at 12 knts for big boosting and cruising at 8 knts. I am slightly heavier than you which could make a difference but if you can demo one that would always be advised.

Well I'm fairly confident it will get me that low. I'm going on a foil in 10kts on a 3 strut Ozone Cat and if the Hyperlink is all it's hyped up to be (pun intended) I'll be disappointed if it doesn't go that low. Plenty of user reports saying it will allow foiling in 8kts so i"m taking the punt. I've got about 4kg on you and I'm strapless so enough power to boost isn't my concern. I'm not the worlds greatest kiter, but I pride myself in my ability to extract every bit of power from a kite in marginal conditions.

emmafoils said..
I have done the experiment several times and I can absolutely assure you that a good light weight medium aspect foil kite (Pulsion 12 in my case) will stay up in the air during super low lulls better than a Cloud 13.4 or 13.5. My Clouds are 10.4 and smaller for that reason.

Agree re the smaller Clouds over the bigger sizes. I've had a Cloud C5 in a smaller size and it was a lovely little kite to foil with in stronger winds. I was watching a Cloud D 13.4m the other day. It looked quite slow and almost clumsy looking in turns - no more nimble than the high A/R foil kites that were also out. It almost looked on the edge of buckling when down looping but to be fair it was probably over - powered at the time as I was comfortably powered on a 9m. If I ever bought another Cloud it would be in the smaller sizes again for sure. I think an 8 would be the max I'd get. Quite nice kites to foil with for sure. Lots of grunt and fun to fly.

snalberski said..

DukeSilver said..
But for that 8 - 12 range, I think the HL will shine over a 12m LEI if only because it stays in the air.

I wouldn't count on a 9m necessarily having enough at 8 knts . My 9m Hyperlink gets me down to 12 no problem... by that I mean flying well with lowish boosting.... I have just ordered a 12m UL for 8-15 knt range which I am hoping will have me cranking at 12 knts for big boosting and cruising at 8 knts. I am slightly heavier than you which could make a difference but if you can demo one that would always be advised.

Yeah. 8 knots, 23m lines. 88 kgs. Moses foil. 9m hyperlink. Requires kiteloop at waterstart or with 26m lines no kiteloop

Macster said..

snalberski said..

DukeSilver said..
But for that 8 - 12 range, I think the HL will shine over a 12m LEI if only because it stays in the air.

I wouldn't count on a 9m necessarily having enough at 8 knts . My 9m Hyperlink gets me down to 12 no problem... by that I mean flying well with lowish boosting.... I have just ordered a 12m UL for 8-15 knt range which I am hoping will have me cranking at 12 knts for big boosting and cruising at 8 knts. I am slightly heavier than you which could make a difference but if you can demo one that would always be advised.

Yeah. 8 knots, 23m lines. 88 kgs. Moses foil. 9m hyperlink. Requires kiteloop at waterstart or with 26m lines no kiteloop

Good to know. Cheers for the info. BTW, which Moses foil are you on? A Fluente is my next foiling purchase.

warwickl said..

DukeSilver said..

emmafoils said..
I have done the experiment several times and I can absolutely assure you that a good light weight medium aspect foil kite (Pulsion 12 in my case) will stay up in the air during super low lulls better than a Cloud 13.4 or 13.5. My Clouds are 10.4 and smaller for that reason.

Agree re the smaller Clouds over the bigger sizes. I've had a Cloud C5 in a smaller size and it was a lovely little kite to foil with in stronger winds. I was watching a Cloud D 13.4m the other day. It looked quite slow and almost clumsy looking in turns - no more nimble than the high A/R foil kites that were also out. It almost looked on the edge of buckling when down looping but to be fair it was probably over - powered at the time as I was comfortably powered on a 9m. If I ever bought another Cloud it would be in the smaller sizes again for sure. I think an 8 would be the max I'd get. Quite nice kites to foil with for sure. Lots of grunt and fun to fly.

I have 10.4D and kited the 13.4 D. Correctly inflated and trimmed I found the 13.4 D stayed up longer than the 10.4D.
Both amazing regardless - absoulty nothing clumsy about any D version Cloud kite.

No I'm sure that's the case. Just as an observer I was surprised by the slow turning speed - but I guess it's a 13.4m kite so it's not going to be the most nimble kite on the water in any case.

warwickl said..

DukeSilver said..

warwickl said..

DukeSilver said..

emmafoils said..
I have done the experiment several times and I can absolutely assure you that a good light weight medium aspect foil kite (Pulsion 12 in my case) will stay up in the air during super low lulls better than a Cloud 13.4 or 13.5. My Clouds are 10.4 and smaller for that reason.

Agree re the smaller Clouds over the bigger sizes. I've had a Cloud C5 in a smaller size and it was a lovely little kite to foil with in stronger winds. I was watching a Cloud D 13.4m the other day. It looked quite slow and almost clumsy looking in turns - no more nimble than the high A/R foil kites that were also out. It almost looked on the edge of buckling when down looping but to be fair it was probably over - powered at the time as I was comfortably powered on a 9m. If I ever bought another Cloud it would be in the smaller sizes again for sure. I think an 8 would be the max I'd get. Quite nice kites to foil with for sure. Lots of grunt and fun to fly.

I have 10.4D and kited the 13.4 D. Correctly inflated and trimmed I found the 13.4 D stayed up longer than the 10.4D.
Both amazing regardless - absoulty nothing clumsy about any D version Cloud kite.

No I'm sure that's the case. Just as an observer I was surprised by the slow turning speed - but I guess it's a 13.4m kite so it's not going to be the most nimble kite on the water in any case.

Forgot to mention on 32m race lines. Race lines minimise bow in lines due to lower resistance and as such kite is more responsive.
I've only just started using race lines and can not believe the difference.

Are you using the ozone race lines with 100kg for back and 200 kg for front?

If it helps, I ride with a guy who has a 9m, 12m and 15m Liquid Force solo and the same weight.

The 9m Hyperlink is somewhere between the 12m and 15m Solo for power and speed.