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Kamikuza said..

warwickl said..
Comment on fiddling with rear wing doing so helped me significantly with balance and wing ventilation.

Did it really or did you just get better and put it down to the fiddling?

The different shims he was trying definitely made difference.

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bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said..

warwickl said..
Comment on fiddling with rear wing doing so helped me significantly with balance and wing ventilation.

Did it really or did you just get better and put it down to the fiddling?

The different shims he was trying definitely made difference.

No doubt, but the underlying issue of balance hasn't been resolved, it's just been compensated for. I guess we really only ride one or two of our own foils, so it's not like we need to jump between different ones and then fiddle about setting them up to suit . . . so it doesn't matter

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Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said..

warwickl said..
Comment on fiddling with rear wing doing so helped me significantly with balance and wing ventilation.

Did it really or did you just get better and put it down to the fiddling?

The different shims he was trying definitely made difference.

No doubt, but the underlying issue of balance hasn't been resolved, it's just been compensated for. I guess we really only ride one or two of our own foils, so it's not like we need to jump between different ones and then fiddle about setting them up to suit . . . so it doesn't matter

Shimming the rear stab can make a huge difference to learning. More aoa will make the foil more stable but add front foot pressure. Less gives you more sensitivity/maneuverability with the sacrifice to stability.

At the begining, the newbie needs more stability and less sensativity. More front for pressure works well when learning as it gives you something to push against/focus on.

As you progress you can trim back to the stab aoa and increase sensativity to get the desired sensativity that A) you have the skill for and B) enjoy.

That said a newbie doesn't know what is sensitive and what is stable so you could very easily adjust the foil to work worse than factory. Factory settings should be optimised for general use.

My suggestion is to leave production foils at the factory setting unless they have very light front foot pressure. If you can easily get the nose to touch down at speed with little front foot pressure that is a sign you could do with shimming the stab. OR if front foot pressure is stupid high then you could even consider shimming.

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Plummet said..

Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said..

warwickl said..
Comment on fiddling with rear wing doing so helped me significantly with balance and wing ventilation.

Did it really or did you just get better and put it down to the fiddling?

The different shims he was trying definitely made difference.

No doubt, but the underlying issue of balance hasn't been resolved, it's just been compensated for. I guess we really only ride one or two of our own foils, so it's not like we need to jump between different ones and then fiddle about setting them up to suit . . . so it doesn't matter

Shimming the rear stab can make a huge difference to learning. More aoa will make the foil more stable but add front foot pressure. Less gives you more sensitivity/maneuverability with the sacrifice to stability.

At the begining, the newbie needs more stability and less sensativity. More front for pressure works well when learning as it gives you something to push against/focus on.

As you progress you can trim back to the stab aoa and increase sensativity to get the desired sensativity that A) you have the skill for and B) enjoy.

That said a newbie doesn't know what is sensitive and what is stable so you could very easily adjust the foil to work worse than factory. Factory settings should be optimised for general use.

My suggestion is to leave production foils at the factory setting unless they have very light front foot pressure. If you can easily get the nose to touch down at speed with little front foot pressure that is a sign you could do with shimming the stab. OR if front foot pressure is stupid high then you could even consider shimming.

Agree 100%

I think, you need to be able to ride the board comfortably without it leaving the water. Put your back foot in front of the rear foot strap, and lean forward slightly, get your speed up to 12-15 kts. If you cant do that then, the foil balance for your board position is not good.

Increase the rear angle of attack/ decrease main foil to stop the board lifting up or vice versa.

If you find you need to lean back more and more the faster you go, increase the rear stab angle of attack. ( to give more downforce ). That should mean u can hold your body more in the same position over wider speed range.

The other thing I did is practice riding with kite high ( 1230) to 1and depowered, to find the feel of the foil, and use the depower ( arms out ,) if climbing+ shoulders forward/ straighten back leg momentarily, then back to slightly bent.

To climb, pull on power slightly+ straighten front leg /lean back momentarily then back to slightly bent/ depowered.

Then when you think you have the hang of it. Deliberately try and pump the foil like a dolphin tail, to get a better feel for how easy it is to control.

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Plummet said..

That said a newbie doesn't know what is sensitive and what is stable so you could very easily adjust the foil to work worse than factory. Factory settings should be optimised for general use.

My suggestion is to leave production foils at the factory setting unless they have very light front foot pressure.

Agree 100%

It's very unlikely that (major) manufacturer board/foil combo's would be so badly designed that they'd be out of sync when the rider is standing in a neutral position ie. feet centered in the straps, foil mounted in the "right" spot.

Get the basics right before you start meddling outside a neutral setup. Get on a see saw and stand on the center, then see how much you need to move your weight to get the thing to move, then how little you need to keep it balanced. Notice how much more stable you are keeping your torso upright and bending your knees to lunge to the sides? No muscling required.

FWIW moving the foil forward or aft on the rails (if you can) will achieve much the same results.

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Kamikuza said..

Plummet said..

That said a newbie doesn't know what is sensitive and what is stable so you could very easily adjust the foil to work worse than factory. Factory settings should be optimised for general use.

My suggestion is to leave production foils at the factory setting unless they have very light front foot pressure.

Agree 100%

It's very unlikely that (major) manufacturer board/foil combo's would be so badly designed that they'd be out of sync when the rider is standing in a neutral position ie. feet centered in the straps, foil mounted in the "right" spot.

Get the basics right before you start meddling outside a neutral setup. Get on a see saw and stand on the center, then see how much you need to move your weight to get the thing to move, then how little you need to keep it balanced. Notice how much more stable you are keeping your torso upright and bending your knees to lunge to the sides? No muscling required.

FWIW moving the foil forward or aft on the rails (if you can) will achieve much the same results.

As said previously, several brands already provide shims or other methods to adjust the back wing with advice how to and why.
I have a Naish foil which has adjustment for the rear wing plus a carbon KFA race/fr foil and it also has shims to suit each rider preference.

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warwickl said..

Kamikuza said..

Plummet said..

That said a newbie doesn't know what is sensitive and what is stable so you could very easily adjust the foil to work worse than factory. Factory settings should be optimised for general use.

My suggestion is to leave production foils at the factory setting unless they have very light front foot pressure.

Agree 100%

It's very unlikely that (major) manufacturer board/foil combo's would be so badly designed that they'd be out of sync when the rider is standing in a neutral position ie. feet centered in the straps, foil mounted in the "right" spot.

Get the basics right before you start meddling outside a neutral setup. Get on a see saw and stand on the center, then see how much you need to move your weight to get the thing to move, then how little you need to keep it balanced. Notice how much more stable you are keeping your torso upright and bending your knees to lunge to the sides? No muscling required.

FWIW moving the foil forward or aft on the rails (if you can) will achieve much the same results.

As said previously, several brands already provide shims or other methods to adjust the back wing with advice how to and why.
I have a Naish foil which has adjustment for the rear wing plus a carbon KFA race/fr foil and it also has shims to suit each rider preference.

A gadget racers need on race foils made its way onto everyday foils -- must be indispensable for learners :D

To each their own.
but when you start tuning your foil you will be generally tuning it away from what the manufacturer worked towards. Although for some companies it was quicker to market if they got close then supplied shims to let the customer do the rest of the R&D.
but assuming your foil has been well designed and tested, then tuning rear wing will sacrifice something to gain something else.

In the early eighties I was a KTM and Husky dealer which also entailed suspension rebuild and tuning.
90% of the time a customer would bring in their shock or forks for me to do some mods to make their bike go fast and handle good.
and the fix was to change oil and seals and reset to factory settings.
And as you could guess all thought the mods did the trick.

in foiling some will get a result that clicks onto their particular style and that is great. But many will head off into a cycle of change relearn outgrow change relearn outgrow till they are back at start.

RALl INN and Kamikuza have either of you tried tuning the rear wing?
One example in my experience : on my Zeeko gear with standard free ride wing no need to tune. However, with the Carver wing a thin shim chaged the Carver from a bit of a gurgling foil into a smooth ride and far better control when wing was at or near the surface.

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RAL INN said..
To each their own.
but when you start tuning your foil you will be generally tuning it away from what the manufacturer worked towards. Although for some companies it was quicker to market if they got close then supplied shims to let the customer do the rest of the R&D.
but assuming your foil has been well designed and tested, then tuning rear wing will sacrifice something to gain something else.

In the early eighties I was a KTM and Husky dealer which also entailed suspension rebuild and tuning.
90% of the time a customer would bring in their shock or forks for me to do some mods to make their bike go fast and handle good.
and the fix was to change oil and seals and reset to factory settings.
And as you could guess all thought the mods did the trick.

in foiling some will get a result that clicks onto their particular style and that is great. But many will head off into a cycle of change relearn outgrow change relearn outgrow till they are back at start.

You are right regarding manufacture settings ,...... some boards have foil tracks for example, and really unless you bolt and try a position you don't know where the ' correct ' position is - especially when mixing foils / fuselages because there is no standard between manufacturers, and even sometimes between models

If you buy the entire getup from one manufacturer you have more chance that the foil position is correct, and the recommended settings working for sure.

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warwickl said..
RALl INN and Kamikuza have either of you tried tuning the rear wing?
One example in my experience : on my Zeeko gear with standard free ride wing no need to tune. However, with the Carver wing a thin shim chaged the Carver from a bit of a gurgling foil into a smooth ride and far better control when wing was at or near the surface.

I think very few people ever consider shimming the stabilizer. They assume its set up optimally. But is it? A manufacturer needs to set it to a generic setting that would please most people. Is that setting what pleases you? most people will never know. They will sooner buy a whole new foil than fiddle with the one they have.

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RAL INN said..
in foiling some will get a result that clicks onto their particular style and that is great. But many will head off into a cycle of change relearn outgrow change relearn outgrow till they are back at start.

Yup. Get the basics down first.

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warwickl said..
RALl INN and Kamikuza have either of you tried tuning the rear wing?
One example in my experience : on my Zeeko gear with standard free ride wing no need to tune. However, with the Carver wing a thin shim chaged the Carver from a bit of a gurgling foil into a smooth ride and far better control when wing was at or near the surface.

Don't need too, I've got my balance sorted

That may fall under the mismatched wing/stab category, soyou are right there. I perhaps unreasonably assumed that most people learning will be buying a foil "set" that's been proven to at least work.

I learned on a Fun Foil with a bent fuselage. Perhaps that was to my advantage That was the only time I considered shimming a foil, to match the stab to the new AoA on the wing . . . but couldn't be faffed.

I forced myself to learn to ride with feet in the middle of the straps, as someone with experience had said that the foil was perfectly balanced in that config. It was horrifying at first, but after a few sessions, going back to a TT was equally horrifying -- muscle memory is a funny thing.

I guess that also forced me to figure out balancing (side lunges!) rather than just standing in front of the rear straps or whatever solution people come up with to make it easier to get their weight in the right spot. Another advantage is now I *like* having a wide stance with the rear foot behind the mast, which has advantages.

The other thing to consider is foils that change their trim with speed. The FF was a shocker for nose diving when the speed climbed (downloading a toe to heel carve needed quick reflexes), and the HG would aggressively nose-up in a low speed stall (sub-cruising speed), while all the Axis foils I've ridden are neutral throughout their speed range.

You could trim to get around that, but with basically -- with more experience, you have better control over speed, can predict what the foils going to do, can adapt. . . .

Time on the water. Can't beat it, but it all starts with balance.

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dachopper said..

where the ' correct ' position is

That comes down to how you like to have your balance underfoot. Assuming the wing/stab is in sync, the "correct" position is whatever you like.

Hey - thanks everyone for the responses to my original question !!
Im on a Zeeko Bullet and have played around with the race and carver wings and yes while I could shim the rear wing Im pretty happy to just get my technique right !
While I have the brains trust together - may I ask another pretty stupid question? This one is about speed control !! As someone said being scared of the foil leads to mistakes - but sometimes the board just seems to get going crazily fast - and it does simply scare me **less. My top speed on a sailbaord was 37 knots - Ive no ambition to do that on a foil at my age!! I know the answer is get rid of the kite power but its just not always that easy!! As the foil builds speed my normal reaction on a surfboard is to drive the rail in and head a bit up wind and that does the job - but on the foil it seems to accelerate !! Given how little power is actually needed to get the foil flying I do wonder how to tame the beast ! My tack/ jibing skills on the foil are non existant atm so when Im heading back to shallow water at 20 knots its a bit un-nerving!! Currently I try to fly the kite high and put lots of front foor pressure to get the board back on the water to slow it down - what else can I do ??

All the things you do on the sb to reduce speed work on the foil too with a slight technique adjustment. Instead of driving the rail you cant the foil over and drive upwind. Its actuall very cool to be canted hard and blasting upwind.
Kite high ride down wind until you get slack lines. Purposfully drive the nose into the water. Once I could handle the foil i backed the rear stab aoa off until i could easily drift the board into the water at high speed. Then speed control go a lot easier.

Lastlty use a smaller kite, and ride underpowered to a point where you have to work the kite to maintain high speed. Then you never get to a point of being out of control of your speed.

I agree with Plummet but suggest maybe your not going upwind near enough when u are trying to shed speed, for me if you lean the board over, wide stance with knees bent and drive kite down to load your legs up ( turn upwind enough do kite lines are between your legs, u should be able waste a heap of power.

May or may not work for you but I often touch down slightly to lose a bit of speed. Just a controlled height descent so you can just scuff the top a bit of chop. With my kit, I lose a little momentum but not enough to kill all the speed so I don't lose lift and stall.

Good if you know there is a wind shadow a bit down the coast. You can launch a bit overpowered and sail down to where you are perfectly powered.