Select to expand quote

Mr Milk said..
It's a distraction. You might as well say that more people die from heart attacks than car crashes, so car crashes don't matter

Well, is it ?

If the argument against nuclear generation is one of safety then surely comparing the safety against other generators is reasonable ?

If you start on the premise electricty is good for society, then you had the choice between nuclear and say hydro-, and you based your decision simply on historical deaths due to each, then water dams are significantly less safe.


(I'll include all water storage in my assessment there, because remery seems to have included Russian plutonium enrichment in the assessment of nuclear electrictiy generation).


The notion that nuclear is ugly or unsafe doesn't really stack up for me. I used to live near one and I did some work in others many years ago. I came to the conclusion neither issue was an actual issue.

Although, the notion of nuclear generation in Australia as a solution also doesn't stack up for me. We don't have massive energy intensive industries, a lack of alternate fuels or a large and relatively dense population and residentil demand. But I'd base my rejection of nuclear in Aus on the fact that there are probably better solutions for our situation, not on some random excuse because I have an unfound fear of the word 'nuclear'. For India, Japan, areas of China, the central European states, I'd have a different assessment.

Sabine Hossenfelder has a good take on it. She grew up in a chemical industrial zone, to be on the safe side of the danger posed you'd need a multi-milliion dollar chemical analysis lab. Next to a Nuclear power station all you need is a $99.00 geiger counter.

Geiger Counter Nuclear Radiation Detector Radiation Dosimeter with LCD Beta Gamma X-ray Rechargeable Radiation Monitor Meter, 5 Dosage Units Switched (crazysales.com.au)

And then there's the indoor air pollution, everything is made out of plastic, continuously vapourising until they turn brittle.

Ventilate, ventilate, ventilate...( unless your eco-phobic neighbour has the pest controller pumping who knows what into the house next door and surrounds. You still need a multi-million dollar chem lab to stay safe)

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..
Thanks. I am glad that you accept that I am entitled to my own opinion. I don't know why having an opinion is against international rules, but I appreciate that you acknowledge it is permitted.

How has today been? Have you raised any more money to send to Palestine, together with your existing donations? Have you been able to get in touch with any aid agencies to see how you can help out?

I'll stick with boycotting.

I think I've got this solved. Back in the day when they made explosives, lots of deaths. DuPont said enough! All managers will now live on site with their families, safety record improved.
Location for All our Nuclear power stations.. Canberra. All the waste..Canberra

All the politicians.Yep, they have to stay and live in.

But it will never be cheap electricity and the life span of a power plant is about 40 years and then you have to work out how you decommission it.

Select to expand quote

kato said..
I think I've got this solved. Back in the day when they made explosives, lots of deaths. DuPont said enough! All managers will now live on site with their families, safety record improved.
Location for All our Nuclear power stations.. Canberra. All the waste..Canberra

All the politicians.Yep, they have to stay and live in.

But it will never be cheap electricity and the life span of a power plant is about 40 years and then you have to work out how you decommission it.

Genius.

Cost of construction + fuel mining/refining/transportation/storage + operation + decommission + waste 'disposal' = one hell of a bill that will haunt us forever. Then there's that little issue of safety. Fikushimas meltdown was the effect of the earthquake. The achilles heal turned out to be a pump that had it's embankment breached. A tiny oversight in an otherwise huge project. Australia has no hope of not having a major mishap.

Select to expand quote

Buster fin said..
Cost of construction + fuel mining/refining/transportation/storage + operation + decommission + waste 'disposal' = one hell of a bill that will haunt us forever. Then there's that little issue of safety. Fikushimas meltdown was the effect of the earthquake. The achilles heal turned out to be a pump that had it's embankment breached. A tiny oversight in an otherwise huge project. Australia has no hope of not having a major mishap.

Lucas heights nuclear reactor in Sydney has been in operation since 1958.

ANSTO has over 60 years of experience in nuclear science and technology, check out some of the below resources to discover more about the world of nuclear science.

www.ansto.gov.au/education/nuclear-facts

Buster, just putting the safety aspect in some perspective.

This is nowhere near an exhaustive list
Piper Alpha: 167 dead
Alexander Kielland: 123 dead
Seacrest: 91 dead
Atlantic Empress: 26 dead
ABT Summer: 5 dead
Nowruz Oil Field: 11 dead
The Haven: 6 Dead

www.energy.gov/articles/cop28-countries-launch-declaration-triple-nuclear-energy-capacity-2050-recognizing-key

Is Bowen smarter than all these other countries ,I think not.

The extent of the influence of The Simpsons on our culture never ceases to amaze me.
"The Simpsons is an incredibly powerful cultural reference. Every group, someone will say something about three-eyed fish, or that they don't want some Homer Simpson-type in charge of the plant."

Tony Barry, a former Liberal staffer and strategist and now principal at Redbridge, has conducted multiple focus groups exploring attitudes to nuclear power and says that the headline one-third broad support for and openness to nuclear "is very soft".
"People know that nuclear power is used in other parts of the world, maybe they've been to Europe and seen power stations . but when you start talking about doing it in their state . [support] just evaporates," he says.
Full article here : www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-29/peter-dutton-nuclear-power-policy-may-risk-alienating-women/103870338

I'm all for nuclear when/if we can do fission, and if it's going to recoup the establishment expense in a reasonable time.

But by that time, we'll probably have more economic storage systems for wind/solar

Select to expand quote

cammd said..

Buster fin said..
Cost of construction + fuel mining/refining/transportation/storage + operation + decommission + waste 'disposal' = one hell of a bill that will haunt us forever. Then there's that little issue of safety. Fikushimas meltdown was the effect of the earthquake. The achilles heal turned out to be a pump that had it's embankment breached. A tiny oversight in an otherwise huge project. Australia has no hope of not having a major mishap.

Lucas heights nuclear reactor in Sydney has been in operation since 1958.

ANSTO has over 60 years of experience in nuclear science and technology, check out some of the below resources to discover more about the world of nuclear science.

www.ansto.gov.au/education/nuclear-facts

But its used to generate nuclear medicines, not for generating power, so I expect the risks are higher with power generation.

FWIW the locals got the suburb name changed. Presumably to distance it from the nuclear facility nextdoor. The name escapes me for the moment, but there is also a tip, so its a great place... well it will be once the council stops extending the lease on the waste facility and it becomes parkland.

edit: I just looked it up, and it's now 'Barden Ridge'.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..
I'm all for nuclear when/if we can do fission, and if it's going to recoup the establishment expense in a reasonable time.

But by that time, we'll probably have more economic storage systems for wind/solar

Fusion?

CSIRO's GenCost report noted that nuclear was still likely to be at least 50 per cent more expensive than large-scale wind and solar power backed by "firming" technologies such as batteries

Building a large-scale nuclear power plant in Australia would cost at least $8.5 billion, take 15 years to deliver

www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-22/nuclear-power-double-the-cost-of-renewables/103868728



Compare that assessment to Snowy 2.0hydro. Capacity of 2GW and currently forecast at 12 years delivery (2017 to 2029, with construction 2019 to 2029) and $12 billion cost forecast, plus another $10 billion required on powerlines to connect to the renewables that are required to power it.

Because more than the 2GW output has to be fed back in to get the water backup the hill to make the 2GW. Otherwise it is runs for 7 1/2 days and then becomes useless.

So for Snowy 2 renewable to produce the same as a 2 reactor nuclear plant you need $12 billion construction + $10 billion interconnectors, plus the cost of 2GW+ of renewable (solar/wind). Arguably the cost of the solar/wind could be somewhat offset as the excess off-peak usage could be used to pump the water back up the hill, but if want the renewable system to be 24/7 power no matter how long a cloudly, not windy period lasts you may need at least 2GW wind/solar to be able to be dedicated to power just the hydro.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..
...so I expect the risks are higher with power generation.

Why would you 'expect' that ? Because nuclear whatever is dangerous, so by default it must be more risky than not very risky ?

Select to expand quote

Buster fin said..
Cost of construction + fuel mining/refining/transportation/storage + operation + decommission + waste 'disposal' = one hell of a bill that will haunt us forever. Then there's that little issue of safety. Fikushimas meltdown was the effect of the earthquake. The achilles heal turned out to be a pump that had it's embankment breached. A tiny oversight in an otherwise huge project. Australia has no hope of not having a major mishap.

There are many incorrect assertions there. All power generation has a cost, including decommissioning. Unlike wind and solar, nuclear operations actually contribute to thier own decommissioning over thier 70+ year lifetime. The cost is built in and it turns out it is very comparable to coal and gas and it is much lower cost than wind and solar on a per GWh delivered basis.

As for ****ishima, yes a magnitude 9 earthquake and subsequently one of the worst tsunami's ever, found a fault in a nuclear power plant design.

That said, no one died, no one was injured and there was no significant spread of radiation. It is just a power plant in a very small area that is going to need some ongoing containment until things settle down in abut 40 years and it can be removed easily. It was a major mishap, with almost no impact.

Select to expand quote

japie said..
I think it was Landline covered the discovery of a massive hot rock deposit in the upper Hunter Valley back in the mid nineties. Was at a time when energy discussion was all the rage. There are a few of them scattered about the country.

Given that all conventional electricity production relies on steam to drive turbines you would think that every effort would have been made to exploit the resource. Directional drilling technology capabilities would make it a simple task to deliver water to the deposit enabling the ensuing steam to drive turbines.

Zero "carbon footprint". Virtually free energy!

John Howard would find a way to sell it to his mates though.

I have had a bit to do with Geothermal power. Lihir Island sits on an old volcano with some very strong geothermal activity. The built a plant to power the mine.

The issue is that the act of drawing heat from the rocks actually cools the rocks down. It is not replaced quickly enough and the very expensive generation facility you have just built ends up producing a lot less power than you hoped. It is not the magic power solution some think it is.

Select to expand quote

Paradox said..

japie said..
I think it was Landline covered the discovery of a massive hot rock deposit in the upper Hunter Valley back in the mid nineties. Was at a time when energy discussion was all the rage. There are a few of them scattered about the country.

Given that all conventional electricity production relies on steam to drive turbines you would think that every effort would have been made to exploit the resource. Directional drilling technology capabilities would make it a simple task to deliver water to the deposit enabling the ensuing steam to drive turbines.

Zero "carbon footprint". Virtually free energy!

John Howard would find a way to sell it to his mates though.

I have had a bit to do with Geothermal power. Lihir Island sits on an old volcano with some very strong geothermal activity. The built a plant to power the mine.

The issue is that the act of drawing heat from the rocks actually cools the rocks down. It is not replaced quickly enough and the very expensive generation facility you have just built ends up producing a lot less power than you hoped. It is not the magic power solution some think it is.

That is interesting. It's logical that that would be the case but surely it would be dependant on the depth that was drilled.

I was discussing it with a driller mate who told me that there was an issue with the water causing local earthquakes which doesn't surprise me. I imagine that introducing cool water into a hot rock deposit would cause the rock to fracture.

With regard to the issue of the rocks cooling it would have to be dependant on the size of the deposit surely.
Anyhow it would have to be worthwhile at least undertaking a trial. Whilst drilling holes is not cheap it's done frequently for oil exploration often in hostile conditions.

Any how this whole "energy crisis" is manufactured. It's an utter nonsense that we should be reducing carbon dioxide in Australia at the same time as exporting millions of tonnes of coal overseas.

Its a bit like dog ****.

The park is huge, my dog's **** is tiny, why would I bother cleaning it up.

And so says three dozen dog walkers each day.

3,000,000 solar panels or 1 Nuclear Plant

I'd say solar is like a big dog****

Thought I would try and slip this one in while FN was busy with his scones and cream.



Full article here www.thebelltowertimes.com/wa-criticises-duttons-proposed-nuclear-plant-in-collie-havent-their-genetics-been-through-enough/

I was wondering, outside of China and Russia, had anyone been building Nuclear Reactor Power stations over the past decade or so?

Can we just approach a seasoned builder/designer and say "hey we want 6 power plants, these sizes, to suit these demands, when can you do and how much will it cost?"

Is I going to be the case where we have to modify or build bespoke designs to suit our needs, because no one is building them at the moment?

Because if that's the case, I would just like to point at our other largely modified/unproven design purchases as examples of just how badly wrong that can go.

(Hunter class frigates or Arafura class OPVs anyone?)

??? Ummm ive built reactors...

Dude i built like 9 reactors just a couple years ago near redacted hahahaha

You think we arent building reactors?!?!?



Bwahahahaha wtf is this a wind up?!?!


Bwahhahahaha okay **** it ill dox myself



My job is to literally build reactors you think we cant build reactors ?!?!












Ill build 21 reactors in like 8 months


My god you guys talk so much bs its laughable

Keep fighting over vaccines meanwhile yas have no idea australia literally has dozens of other countrys completely owning "australian soil" with theyre own infrastructure and rules on it ive worked in more american korean and chinese sites then i have australian ones in nt and qld theres nuclear sites all around you and you probably dont even know where thousands of people go to work everyday.

If its not on tv its like you lot dont know about it. Way too funny.

During covid all those countrys started pulling all the raw material out and takeing it back home in fear that we might KEEP it.

We would have hundreds and hundreds of foreign nationals turn up on site dressed as "construction workers" despite them all clearly being fit blokes all same height age weight fitness all clearly eating the same food and doing the same training as eachother

Im literally building a entire TOWN for 5000 singaporean army guys next to a chinese barracls at the moment.

This is waaaay too funny

How about rather then argueing over bull**** the media wants you to argue over you just jump on the lgtenderbox and see what countrys want to build what in australia

We barely own anything in this country and guess what if australia doesny own it doesnt mean it isnt HERE in australia its literally zoned as another countrys land.

This isnt some sort of secret.

This is how its always been for my entire livetime and yours aswell you silly ol ninnys

Select to expand quote

D3 said..
I was wondering, outside of China and Russia, had anyone been building Nuclear Reactor Power stations over the past decade or so?

Can we just approach a seasoned builder/designer and say "hey we want 6 power plants, these sizes, to suit these demands, when can you do and how much will it cost?"

Is I going to be the case where we have to modify or build bespoke designs to suit our needs, because no one is building them at the moment?

Because if that's the case, I would just like to point at our other largely modified/unproven design purchases as examples of just how badly wrong that can go.

(Hunter class frigates or Arafura class OPVs anyone?)

Take your pick:

world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide

Oh and i also worked on the largest solar farm in southern hemisphere i used to stop half way to work walk up the hill a bit and jump off and cause of all the crazy heat reliably fly to the front gates everyday the guards loved it

To be honest the hawks kites eagles ****n loved the solar farm and all the little bandis etc got to be pretty protected beneath the panels. Animals seamed to love it cant say the same about all the cadmium

Wait until you guys figure out how we get rid of all our toxic waste

Oh and we needed all the solar for electrolysis not for POWERING your 75inch sky news machines every evening cause you forgot how to party

Jesus christ i thought you were all talking absolute bollocks for funsies turns out it was realsies ay

Select to expand quote

Froth Goth said..
Oh and i also worked on the largest solar farm in southern hemisphere i used to stop half way to work walk up the hill a bit and jump off and cause of all the crazy heat reliably fly to the front gates everyday the guards loved it

To be honest the hawks kites eagles ****n loved the solar farm and all the little bandis etc got to be pretty protected beneath the panels. Animals seamed to love it cant say the same about all the cadmium

Wait until you guys figure out how we get rid of all our toxic waste

Oh and we needed all the solar for electrolysis not for POWERING your 75inch sky news machines every evening cause you forgot how to party

Jesus christ i thought you were all talking absolute bollocks for funsies turns out it was realsies ay

I did ask, because I don't know.

So, which countries, outside of China and Russia are building Nuclear power plants?

Select to expand quote

hilly said..

D3 said..
I was wondering, outside of China and Russia, had anyone been building Nuclear Reactor Power stations over the past decade or so?

Can we just approach a seasoned builder/designer and say "hey we want 6 power plants, these sizes, to suit these demands, when can you do and how much will it cost?"

Is I going to be the case where we have to modify or build bespoke designs to suit our needs, because no one is building them at the moment?

Because if that's the case, I would just like to point at our other largely modified/unproven design purchases as examples of just how badly wrong that can go.

(Hunter class frigates or Arafura class OPVs anyone?)

Take your pick:

world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide

Thanks Hilly,

Looks like the bulk of the new ones proposed, planned or under construction are still Russia and China, with a few scattered elsewhere including India.

I wonder how keen the French would be to get on board, noting the Barracuda Balls Up.

Select to expand quote

D3 said..

hilly said..

D3 said..
I was wondering, outside of China and Russia, had anyone been building Nuclear Reactor Power stations over the past decade or so?

Can we just approach a seasoned builder/designer and say "hey we want 6 power plants, these sizes, to suit these demands, when can you do and how much will it cost?"

Is I going to be the case where we have to modify or build bespoke designs to suit our needs, because no one is building them at the moment?

Because if that's the case, I would just like to point at our other largely modified/unproven design purchases as examples of just how badly wrong that can go.

(Hunter class frigates or Arafura class OPVs anyone?)

Take your pick:

world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide

Thanks Hilly,

Looks like the bulk of the new ones proposed, planned or under construction are still Russia and China, with a few scattered elsewhere including India.

I wonder how keen the French would be to get on board, noting the Barracuda Balls Up.

That link listed over 30 countries, I think saying the bulk are Russia and China and a few scattered elsewhere is a bit of an understatement.

Furthermore it said 440 are operating today in 32 countries with a further 60 under construction and 110 planned.

Yep 14 countries are currently building. Mostly less than 4, some only 1.

China and Russia bulk out the planned and proposed plants. Apparently China alone has 26 under construction with another 199 planned/proposed into the future.

My point is that noting our history of military expenditure going awry recently, sourcing immature designs or heavily modifying existing designs only to suffer blowouts and massive delays.
Can we be confident in getting essentially "off the shelf" design and build from the nations that only build a few?
Especially if they're fully committed with building domestically?

Maybe our resident Frothing Goth can give us his perspective on that?

I'm aware that any concerns I'm raising now are able to be solved by throwing money at the problem.

Are you going to take the fingers out of your ears and hear what im saying.


Other COUNTRYS are building infrastructure in OTHER COUNTRYS

Always have been always will be.

Why do you think they pay idiots like me 12 grand a week to be a "team player" ?!?

I literally work with guys from all over the world who cant speak a word of english but have been living and working in rural parts of australia for longer then ive been alive.

We call them work camps in australia but really theyre compounds compounds that have theyre own rules and laws because the people in such compounds are not from here.

Do you want me to draw a picture?

Do you at least understand that there is mines reactors military bases refinerys and everything else entirely owned by other countrys right here in australia that arent counted on the lists of hundreds of... i give up... its like... trying to unwash a brain with a tooth brush in only 2 swipes

Enjoy your bubble