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Bara said..

azymuth said..
Dave Kelly - 20 years experience as a trade union official and a BA degree.

No wonder he is out of his depth as Fisheries Minister (pun intended)

it gets worse -not content falsifying the cost of drums hes now refusing free ones from NSW!

thewest.com.au/news/sharks/wa-urged-to-accept-free-drum-lines-offer-from-nsw-ng-b88837388z

Sounds like this Kelly guy is not one to accept help or recognize a problem.

Its a shame people don't understand the issue involved with smart drum lines.

Firstly the $50 to $75 million price/quote was to cover the entire region, so everyone is simply taking his comments out of context.

Secondly as for the offer of the use of 5 drum lines "hardware" from NSW Liberal government. Well even channel 7 Sunrise this morning called it for what it was, a political stunt between a liberal government and a labour government.

All the time the local state Labour government has said is "We will await the offical report from NSW regarding the trail of smart drum lines". So if NSW really wanted to make a difference, why not release that info Remember that they have yet to make any offical statement on their effectiveness.

They even will not release the info on immediate movement of sharks once released.

Lastly the Federal liberal government are saying that Labour should be tagging, well why did they BLOCK/deny the offer for Ocearch to tag Great Whites of our state for FREE..

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jbshack said..
Its a shame people don't understand the issue involved with smart drum lines.

Firstly the $50 to $75 million price/quote was to cover the entire region, so everyone is simply taking his comments out of context.

Secondly as for the offer of the use of 5 drum lines "hardware" from NSW Liberal government. Well even channel 7 Sunrise this morning called it for what it was, a political stunt between a liberal government and a labour government.

All the time the local state Labour government has said is "We will await the offical report from NSW regarding the trail of smart drum lines". So if NSW really wanted to make a difference, why not release that info Remember that they have yet to make any offical statement on their effectiveness.

They even will not release the info on immediate movement of sharks once released.

Lastly the Federal liberal government are saying that Labour should be tagging, well why did they BLOCK/deny the offer for Ocearch to tag Great Whites of our state for FREE..

Lol nothing but a labor apologist these days professor shack. The outrageous lies about the cost of the program were designed to mislead not " taken out of context"

You swallowed it hook line and sinker for some reason.

It's interesting to compare the 2 different attitudes between state fisheries ministers. One in Nsw was losing sleep over his responsibility to protect human life while the other couldn't give a flying fark and his completely comfortable to let more die while they do nothing. It's an amazing lack of humanity seems to me.

Still waiting on your mysterious reason why receivers can't be deployed between the capes. Surely the clown Kelly would have brought this up while clutching at straws on why the do nothing approach is acceptable?

I think trying to make the WA gov pay for anything at the moment wont work even if it's for free.

They need to make money right now so what they need to do is issue a shark fishing licence (GWS only- this could be set up as a tourism exercise as well) set a bag limit per month, say 3 per 250 km stretch of coast.
Also better management of dead whales. There is enough aircraft flying over the state to report dead whales and they need to be kept off the beaches. This could be done by the operators of the above licence for the GWS. Also the anchor point would be placed 4-5ks <(this could also change) offshore to encourage sharks to go further from the coast for a feed.

I've never been one for an outright cull but thinning the population and training the sharks to say offshore would be a good start and this way the gov get paid instead of the other way around.

Just a thought

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jbshack said..
Lastly the Federal liberal government are saying that Labour should be tagging, well why did they BLOCK/deny the offer for Ocearch to tag Great Whites of our state for FREE..

The terms of Osearch's offer meant that the Government had no say in what went to air.

The dramatized publication of an apparent shark epidemic to a worldwide audience would have been a PR disaster for the state, tourism and the Government.

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The dramatized publication of an apparent shark epidemic to a worldwide audience would have been a PR disaster for the state, tourism and the Government.

Is that pretty much what has happened now due to WSL events and comments?

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LateStarter said..

jbshack said..
Lastly the Federal liberal government are saying that Labour should be tagging, well why did they BLOCK/deny the offer for Ocearch to tag Great Whites of our state for FREE..

The terms of Osearch's offer meant that the Government had no say in what went to air.

The dramatized publication of an apparent shark epidemic to a worldwide audience would have been a PR disaster for the state, tourism and the Government.

Well they have been warned for years, we stoopid have been saying for a long time (a good number of years now).

Goverment / NGO's / shark huggers prefered to rejoice and sit on their hands all this time. Can't be sorry, they are just receiving the unleashed result for inaction. Caught by surprise from the world reaction? (surprise! not everyone thinks like you do at other parts of the world in the shark vs. human life debate).

Now if they catch a wave or two in Bali, with travel/acommodation/beer/hospitality costs a fraction what they are in far WA (shark infested with a local populace that trumps the fish over human life) to run of attend the event, I bet they won't be rushing to return the tornament to its original spot in years to come.

Maybe only if the goverment spills public money to lure them back to be shark bait here. Very ironic...

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DARTH said..
I think trying to make the WA gov pay for anything at the moment wont work even if it's for free.

They need to make money right now so what they need to do is issue a shark fishing licence (GWS only- this could be set up as a tourism exercise as well) set a bag limit per month, say 3 per 250 km stretch of coast.
Also better management of dead whales. There is enough aircraft flying over the state to report dead whales and they need to be kept off the beaches. This could be done by the operators of the above licence for the GWS. Also the anchor point would be placed 4-5ks <(this could also change) offshore to encourage sharks to go further from the coast for a feed.

I've never been one for an outright cull but thinning the population and training the sharks to say offshore would be a good start and this way the gov get paid instead of the other way around.

Just a thought

Yep agree this is where it should head eventually combined with some protected beaches like nsw qld and south africa but due to the shark hugging fraternity it's baby steps and more unnecessary deaths along the way.

Need the research on population numbers so you can manage a fishery and that's where the smart drums and tagging will come in after either labor back flips or the libs get in.

Not if. When.

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LateStarter said..

jbshack said..
Lastly the Federal liberal government are saying that Labour should be tagging, well why did they BLOCK/deny the offer for Ocearch to tag Great Whites of our state for FREE..

The terms of Osearch's offer meant that the Government had no say in what went to air.

The dramatized publication of an apparent shark epidemic to a worldwide audience would have been a PR disaster for the state, tourism and the Government.

Thats funny (also not true), why would the government then let them tag Tiger sharks in QLd and WA

The truth is that the Liberal government rushed around, spending money, waisting money and now we have no money to do anything..The libs are pushing the bandwagon because they are simply trying to hurt the Labour government. The state libs have not even made an offical statement that if in power, they would run the SDL trail. They haven't even done the maths/costings. If Dave Kellys quote was so outrageous, why not stump up the proof that he inflated them, surely that would be easy, unless they cant because they also now the real cost.

Catching a shark, tagging it and dragging it 500 m out to sea is not going to help anyone for water safety. Especially when the nearest receivers are in Esperance and Perth Metro..But the same mob keep demanding it..

Commonsense is needed, but people are too caught up fighting again about what needs to be done. The state Labour government has said, "They will await the offical results of the NSW SDL trail". So what that means for you dumb dumbs is they are asking for proof before blindly spending millions of dollars..Something i wish Barnet had done..Something id call good government. Stamp your feet like a two year old, it wont help anyone..

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jbshack said..
Catching a shark, tagging it and dragging it 500 m out to sea is not going to help anyone for water safety. Especially when the nearest receivers are in Esperance and Perth Metro..But the same mob keep demanding it..

Is that not the stupiest idea you have ever heard? Not only is it a massive WOFTAM but the shark will come back a day or 2 later. The only winners are the blokes with the contracts.

If they want them electronically tagged (really we either have to monitor them much better in real time or a cull) they might as well allow licensed game fishing operators to target them and then document/release them. It then costs the goverment very little (tags and monitoring bouys) and it's been proven 100's of thousand times to work well on billfish, other shark species, GT's in Hawaii (some interesting findings there), even down to black bream.

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MDSXR6T said..

jbshack said..
Catching a shark, tagging it and dragging it 500 m out to sea is not going to help anyone for water safety. Especially when the nearest receivers are in Esperance and Perth Metro..But the same mob keep demanding it..

Is that not the stupiest idea you have ever heard? Not only is it a massive WOFTAM but the shark will come back a day or 2 later. The only winners are the blokes with the contracts.

If they want them electronically tagged (really we either have to monitor them much better in real time or a cull) they might as well allow licensed game fishing operators to target them and then document/release them. It then costs the goverment very little (tags and monitoring bouys) and it's been proven 100's of thousand times to work well on billfish, other shark species, GT's in Hawaii (some interesting findings there), even down to black bream.

Well thats what the rally to parliament was calling for, thats what has got all the support on this page. Hence my point, i wish some people would get a clue about what they are asking for..

Its not about what people think anymore its About What will work. Fisheries minister is a Muppet running is own thoughts and agenda. This conflicts with the ability for him to protect all ocean users and change the overall global image of Western Australia as community and tourist destination.
Be very careful what you wish for. \
Open it up to commercials.FFS Its a no brainer.
(refuse to get into another argument with JBS) You very aware of my view)
(ps im not going to drink ice coffee and go for a attempted aqua nard in your letter box)

im not scared of sharks couldn't care less. I've lost everyone. 4 divers 3500$ a year gone to dive shops. used to surf gone 1000$ gone. 24,000$Boat sold -2000$ per anum to industry gone.. Only thing I do is windsurf now. Go overseas on a dive " where you from " perth " wouldn't dive there to many sharks" Its to late for many people like myself. I'm done. id probably never take up them sports again unfortunately. So Stick to your Cray pots and fishing and go save the planet Have a nice hot latte while the rest of us consider the "realtime" impacts of this current situation. JBS Isn't it time for you to start surfing real waves instead of surfing the information super highway?
All good got a hard tail mountain bike now. your choice. "Don't go in the water don't get attacked by sharks"

I don't understand what your saying, if your not scared of sharks, then why did you stop surfing and diving and what does it have to do with this thread

Its quite simple. Take no action business and tourism will take a hit. Think its about time there is action rather than statistics and a bunch of protesting hypocrites www.perthnow.com.au/news/sharks/sharks-wa-dive-shops-close-doors-after-fear-turns-customers-away-ng-b88830783z Damage done Will it recover " not in the nanny state "Anyways Whatever. Listened to your bull**** for long enough to work out that the best solution to the shark problem is not go in the water. Don't buy a boat buy a pool instead. Don't buy dive equipment buy a mountain bike. Don't buy a surfboard buy subscription to women's weekly and get a free quilt making stencil.

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busterwa said..
Its quite simple. Take no action business and tourism will take a hit. Think its about time there is action rather than statistics and a bunch of protesting hypocrites www.perthnow.com.au/news/sharks/sharks-wa-dive-shops-close-doors-after-fear-turns-customers-away-ng-b88830783z Damage done Will it recover " not in the nanny state "Anyways Whatever. Listened to your bull**** for long enough to work out that the best solution to the shark problem is not go in the water. Don't buy a boat buy a pool instead. Don't buy dive equipment buy a mountain bike. Don't buy a surfboard buy subscription to women's weekly and get a free quilt making stencil.

I agree sharks are not helping dive shops (Well at least the media coverage of sharks) , but most will tell you its Internet shopping that has hurt the most.

As for a bunch of protesting hypocrites, this entire thread is about a rally that wanted to catch and tag sharks then let them go even though their is little scientific evidence to prove that will help.

I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

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busterwa said..
I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

Warnings via apps are good, but as you just said limited.

The problem is we are not as a state doing the simple things correctly. I saw a post the other day on FB, a guy said he was surfing at Indys and before he headed out checked the app and all okay. Well the chopper flew over and flew off. When he got out 3 hours later, their was a beach warning sign installed, saying large shark and dead whale. checked the app and it had been reported by the Helli..So why did they not sound the alarm to the water users? Why did the ranger not walk down and clear the water? It should be simple protocol.

I was at the Alki geting ready to get in filming surf when the help started to hover around us, then flew of. Then my phone buzzed as it was in my hand. 2.5 m shark 600m off shore at the Alkimos. So when i rang the service on Monday to ask when the sound the alarm, they said anything 2.5 or bigger. SO i asked them why then, did in this case did they not do so, she promptly said they couldn't discuss operations control.. I didn't even think the choppers had a siren, as i've never heard one, even when in the water less than 1 km from a fatal attack.

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jbshack said..

busterwa said..
I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

Warnings via apps are good, but as you just said limited.

The problem is we are not as a state doing the simple things correctly. I saw a post the other day on FB, a guy said he was surfing at Indys and before he headed out checked the app and all okay. Well the chopper flew over and flew off. When he got out 3 hours later, their was a beach warning sign installed, saying large shark and dead whale. checked the app and it had been reported by the Helli..So why did they not sound the alarm to the water users? Why did the ranger not walk down and clear the water? It should be simple protocol.

I was at the Alki geting ready to get in filming surf when the help started to hover around us, then flew of. Then my phone buzzed as it was in my hand. 2.5 m shark 600m off shore at the Alkimos. So when i rang the service on Monday to ask when the sound the alarm, they said anything 2.5 or bigger. SO i asked them why then, did in this case did they not do so, she promptly said they couldn't discuss operations control.. I didn't even think the choppers had a siren, as i've never heard one, even when in the water less than 1 km from a fatal attack.

Yep similar thing happened to me few weeks back - shark spotted by heli but no effective communication with those in the water at next break. Only knew when we checked the app later.

We have asked if they can work out a way to drop a flare maybe green so as not to confuse boaties. Visible from a few breaks away. No response yet. Rather subsidise ineffective deterrents.

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busterwa said..
The seas has always been our way of life. we surf we enjoy life. complaints about shark culling are those that are simply to weak to except the food chain or don't have the lifestyle we do. .\
The tec is there Lets see what the future hold for swimming in Western Australia. Its a harsh reality. Life is dog eat dog, life is cruel. Freedom isn't free.

The great educational video,
but what the waste of resources and infrastructure.
I imagine that in 5 years from now the same surveillance drone instead of pouring hellfire missiles to obliterate building and vehicles- will release a swarm of small Phantom like drones.
Each one with the capability of firing simple gun bullets.
Now instead of demolishing the whole block of buildings and vehicles - each drone could shoot down single individual with precision.
No more place to hide to terrorists.
BTW the same remotely operated small Phantom like a drone could cull sharks and other wild animals.
So what we could expect is hunting drones equipped with firearms.
I guess in hundred years from now the same drones will be equipped with lasers instead of firearms.

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Bara said..

jbshack said..

busterwa said..
I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

Warnings via apps are good, but as you just said limited.

The problem is we are not as a state doing the simple things correctly. I saw a post the other day on FB, a guy said he was surfing at Indys and before he headed out checked the app and all okay. Well the chopper flew over and flew off. When he got out 3 hours later, their was a beach warning sign installed, saying large shark and dead whale. checked the app and it had been reported by the Helli..So why did they not sound the alarm to the water users? Why did the ranger not walk down and clear the water? It should be simple protocol.

I was at the Alki geting ready to get in filming surf when the help started to hover around us, then flew of. Then my phone buzzed as it was in my hand. 2.5 m shark 600m off shore at the Alkimos. So when i rang the service on Monday to ask when the sound the alarm, they said anything 2.5 or bigger. SO i asked them why then, did in this case did they not do so, she promptly said they couldn't discuss operations control.. I didn't even think the choppers had a siren, as i've never heard one, even when in the water less than 1 km from a fatal attack.

Yep similar thing happened to me few weeks back - shark spotted by heli but no effective communication with those in the water at next break. Only knew when we checked the app later.

We have asked if they can work out a way to drop a flare maybe green so as not to confuse boaties. Visible from a few breaks away. No response yet. Rather subsidise ineffective deterrents.

Im told the choppers have a siren. I have never heard one. Back surfing in NSW as a kid up the coast a small plane dropped a toilet roll out the window and that meant get out of their quick.

But IMHO instead of demanding expensive solutions why are people not demanding the basics done right, why did the siren not get sounded? Why is signage not followed up with beach clearing? Why can dead whales not be dealt with on a state level, in place of a local shire issue, were they then get ignored? IF it was a state level then to intercept them at sea, would be alot cheaper than dealing with them on a beach.

Why is no-one asking these questions of local shires, SLSWA. People like Libby Mettom who are making a lot of noise, but only on issues that seem to embarrass the labour government, why cant she use her voice to get this discussion going

I was swimming at Nth Cottesloe earlier this year and a helicopter came flying low with a siren sounding, which was then repeated by the beach siren, so probably like most things, some choppers have, some don't.

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JulianRoss said..
I was swimming at Nth Cottesloe earlier this year and a helicopter came flying low with a siren sounding, which was then repeated by the beach siren, so probably like most things, some choppers have, some don't.

When i enquired, they said the yellow chopper has a siren. They also said any chopper used for the service has at least a load hailer to warn people verbally.

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jbshack said..

Bara said..

jbshack said..

busterwa said..
I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

Warnings via apps are good, but as you just said limited.

The problem is we are not as a state doing the simple things correctly. I saw a post the other day on FB, a guy said he was surfing at Indys and before he headed out checked the app and all okay. Well the chopper flew over and flew off. When he got out 3 hours later, their was a beach warning sign installed, saying large shark and dead whale. checked the app and it had been reported by the Helli..So why did they not sound the alarm to the water users? Why did the ranger not walk down and clear the water? It should be simple protocol.

I was at the Alki geting ready to get in filming surf when the help started to hover around us, then flew of. Then my phone buzzed as it was in my hand. 2.5 m shark 600m off shore at the Alkimos. So when i rang the service on Monday to ask when the sound the alarm, they said anything 2.5 or bigger. SO i asked them why then, did in this case did they not do so, she promptly said they couldn't discuss operations control.. I didn't even think the choppers had a siren, as i've never heard one, even when in the water less than 1 km from a fatal attack.

Yep similar thing happened to me few weeks back - shark spotted by heli but no effective communication with those in the water at next break. Only knew when we checked the app later.

We have asked if they can work out a way to drop a flare maybe green so as not to confuse boaties. Visible from a few breaks away. No response yet. Rather subsidise ineffective deterrents.

Im told the choppers have a siren. I have never heard one. Back surfing in NSW as a kid up the coast a small plane dropped a toilet roll out the window and that meant get out of their quick.

But IMHO instead of demanding expensive solutions why are people not demanding the basics done right, why did the siren not get sounded? Why is signage not followed up with beach clearing? Why can dead whales not be dealt with on a state level, in place of a local shire issue, were they then get ignored? IF it was a state level then to intercept them at sea, would be alot cheaper than dealing with them on a beach.

Why is no-one asking these questions of local shires, SLSWA. People like Libby Mettom who are making a lot of noise, but only on issues that seem to embarrass the labour government, why cant she use her voice to get this discussion going

JB its a multi faceted approach to try and mitigate the risk. Yes we have asked local shire to act on whale carcasses, better signage, state to act on better comms process, keep the heli past school hols in autumn, observation platforms etc etc etc.

The smart drums are part of it too. Not an end game but to add to research so the shark hugger camp cant hide behind the endangered species and "its only anecdotal evidence" bull**** any longer. Once reliable population estimates are available the threat can be managed just like any other threat and stop being "special".

In the mean time receivers and tagging can help alert us to tagged sharks in the area too. There is plenty of evidence releasing the sharks offshore does lead to them going elsewhere for awhile and thus reducing human interactions. In brazil there was a 97% reduction in attacks in the months this approach was used vs not. The dollars are not expensive compared to pretty much anything you care to look at that we waste our tax dollars on these days. Drop in the bucket compared to our tourism industry damage too.

Also its pretty hypocritical that on the one hand shark huggers force more technologically advanced and more expensive solutions by rejecting cost effective nets and drums but on the other hand complain that the measures attempting to save both humans and sharks are too expensive!

Libby has been great actually on this stuff and yeah while its about scoring political points its the way our democracy works. Labor has tried a small target do nothing approach to try and keep the minority greens quiet at the cost of human lives. They have opened themselves up to all the political games as a result so only have themselves to blame. If they had a coherent and proactive policy then there could be little pointscoring going on. Its why eventually they will be dragged into doing more.

Select to expand quote

Bara said..

jbshack said..

Bara said..

jbshack said..

busterwa said..
I do like the idea . a few pop-up notifications on your smart phone via face book protecting the people eating banana bread and fish and chips on the beach. Need to get that tec working to its fullest potential Mabe incorporate notifications to people in the water that don't carry any devices a warning about seagulls. Gota be cheaper than a helicopter evac.

Warnings via apps are good, but as you just said limited.

The problem is we are not as a state doing the simple things correctly. I saw a post the other day on FB, a guy said he was surfing at Indys and before he headed out checked the app and all okay. Well the chopper flew over and flew off. When he got out 3 hours later, their was a beach warning sign installed, saying large shark and dead whale. checked the app and it had been reported by the Helli..So why did they not sound the alarm to the water users? Why did the ranger not walk down and clear the water? It should be simple protocol.

I was at the Alki geting ready to get in filming surf when the help started to hover around us, then flew of. Then my phone buzzed as it was in my hand. 2.5 m shark 600m off shore at the Alkimos. So when i rang the service on Monday to ask when the sound the alarm, they said anything 2.5 or bigger. SO i asked them why then, did in this case did they not do so, she promptly said they couldn't discuss operations control.. I didn't even think the choppers had a siren, as i've never heard one, even when in the water less than 1 km from a fatal attack.

Yep similar thing happened to me few weeks back - shark spotted by heli but no effective communication with those in the water at next break. Only knew when we checked the app later.

We have asked if they can work out a way to drop a flare maybe green so as not to confuse boaties. Visible from a few breaks away. No response yet. Rather subsidise ineffective deterrents.

Im told the choppers have a siren. I have never heard one. Back surfing in NSW as a kid up the coast a small plane dropped a toilet roll out the window and that meant get out of their quick.

But IMHO instead of demanding expensive solutions why are people not demanding the basics done right, why did the siren not get sounded? Why is signage not followed up with beach clearing? Why can dead whales not be dealt with on a state level, in place of a local shire issue, were they then get ignored? IF it was a state level then to intercept them at sea, would be alot cheaper than dealing with them on a beach.

Why is no-one asking these questions of local shires, SLSWA. People like Libby Mettom who are making a lot of noise, but only on issues that seem to embarrass the labour government, why cant she use her voice to get this discussion going

JB its a multi faceted approach to try and mitigate the risk. Yes we have asked local shire to act on whale carcasses, better signage, state to act on better comms process, keep the heli past school hols in autumn, observation platforms etc etc etc.

The smart drums are part of it too. Not an end game but to add to research so the shark hugger camp cant hide behind the endangered species and "its only anecdotal evidence" bull**** any longer. Once reliable population estimates are available the threat can be managed just like any other threat and stop being "special".

In the mean time receivers and tagging can help alert us to tagged sharks in the area too. There is plenty of evidence releasing the sharks offshore does lead to them going elsewhere for awhile and thus reducing human interactions. In brazil there was a 97% reduction in attacks in the months this approach was used vs not. The dollars are not expensive compared to pretty much anything you care to look at that we waste our tax dollars on these days. Drop in the bucket compared to our tourism industry damage too.

Also its pretty hypocritical that on the one hand shark huggers force more technologically advanced and more expensive solutions by rejecting cost effective nets and drums but on the other hand complain that the measures attempting to save both humans and sharks are too expensive!

Libby has been great actually on this stuff and yeah while its about scoring political points its the way our democracy works. Labor has tried a small target do nothing approach to try and keep the minority greens quiet at the cost of human lives. They have opened themselves up to all the political games as a result so only have themselves to blame. If they had a coherent and proactive policy then there could be little pointscoring going on. Its why eventually they will be dragged into doing more.

Off-coarse sharks are a issue that needs to be addressed on many levels.

I say the small things need to change, to be done better. I get you promote SDL but i have said it before, actually do the research on cost and effectiveness, especially in deep water rough areas. Do you wonder if their is a reason why the NSW fisheries have not released any "offical" reports or figures, or for that matter even any commitment that they will proceed further past the current trail?

But again, what is the point in having the "Data" as you say you want when people on the ground, at the beach will not get the warnings? What good is a app telling you theirs a shark, if no one knows? So for all the SDL options, the results wont get to the end user anyway.

Also as for finding out a data base of how many sharks are out their, they've done that, the figures are their, its just no one wants to concede that shark numbers have not magnified like people are saying. YES i agree interactions are up, but if the total number of sharks isn't, then we need to look for other answers..

I get you tag me as a shark hugger, personally i couldn't give you two second for one, and if the science supported it, id agree lets cull, BUT IT DOESN'T..

Im sorry, but Libby could use her voice toward the whale issue, she could use her voice towards councils and handling of better beach signage.
Every interaction down south with a shark this year has coincided with a dead whale on the beach.

Their is another page that started on FB and although i disagreed with their constant demand for SDL i posted because i thought they wanted safer beaches. Their were discussions on that page about whales, first aid units and life saving training, beach signage. They removed it all and just harp on about SDL and the fact that Labour have over quoted.. Again just all political crap. Even if the state agreed to start a trail, it would be 6 to 12 months away at best, so what in the mean while.. Nothing just ignore the dead whales and rangers not doing their jobs..Lack luster ariel patrols..

One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, both can be worked on, but people think if we talk about other issues, it will water down their argument..

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jbshack said..




Also as for finding out a data base of how many sharks are out their, they've done that, the figures are their, its just no one wants to concede that shark numbers have not magnified like people are saying. YES i agree interactions are up, but if the total number of sharks isn't, then we need to look for other answers..

This is exactly my point on SDLs - just like the shark huggers you keep saying the GW numbers arent up. When pressed they refer to a quote from CSIRO that they have ASSUMED numbers are stable due to lack of scientific data to the contrary. (Its the whole benefit of the doubt that got them protected in the first place).

Basically a scientist needs a time series of data to identify a change in population. They havnt been researching population numbers long enough so they ASSUME no change despite plenty of non scientific evidence to the contrary.

The only way past this gridlock is to do more research so in a few years they will IMHO match up with the tonnes of anecdotal evidence that GW numbers are up significantly.

Yep its relatively expensive (but still pretty small at $5 to $10 mill per year), yep it will take time and yep more people will die needlessly in the meantime but its the only sure fire way to eventually get the population measured and then managed.

Select to expand quote

Bara said..

jbshack said..




Also as for finding out a data base of how many sharks are out their, they've done that, the figures are their, its just no one wants to concede that shark numbers have not magnified like people are saying. YES i agree interactions are up, but if the total number of sharks isn't, then we need to look for other answers..

This is exactly my point on SDLs - just like the shark huggers you keep saying the GW numbers arent up. When pressed they refer to a quote from CSIRO that they have ASSUMED numbers are stable due to lack of scientific data to the contrary. (Its the whole benefit of the doubt that got them protected in the first place).

Basically a scientist needs a time series of data to identify a change in population. They havnt been researching population numbers long enough so they ASSUME no change despite plenty of non scientific evidence to the contrary.

The only way past this gridlock is to do more research so in a few years they will IMHO match up with the tonnes of anecdotal evidence that GW numbers are up significantly.

Yep its relatively expensive (but still pretty small at $5 to $10 mill per year), yep it will take time and yep more people will die needlessly in the meantime but its the only sure fire way to eventually get the population measured and then managed.

The problem is that your choosing to ignore the fact that they do have a very good idea on shark numbers.

www.nespmarine.edu.au/system/files/NESP-A3-A%20national%20assessment%20of%20the%20status%20of%20white%20sharks%20Feb%202018.pdf

That testing was done with DNA sampling and genetic mapping. Even at Neptune when a GW was sighted that seemed to be new, it was stabbed and skin/dna sampled. Its been a very big operation, obviously they cant lock that down to exact shark numbers but a very good based estimate is made.

I am referring to scientific data that suggests shark numbers have not rebounded to levels that would be the issue for the attacks. I believe more sharks are in close and possibly more interactions because of the shared space but that is not a case of more sharks in total.

Either way, good luck with your SDL demanding, either way as i say to my 14 year old every time he wants to buy something new, money doesn't just grow on trees..

Select to expand quote

jbshack said..

Bara said..

jbshack said..




Also as for finding out a data base of how many sharks are out their, they've done that, the figures are their, its just no one wants to concede that shark numbers have not magnified like people are saying. YES i agree interactions are up, but if the total number of sharks isn't, then we need to look for other answers..

This is exactly my point on SDLs - just like the shark huggers you keep saying the GW numbers arent up. When pressed they refer to a quote from CSIRO that they have ASSUMED numbers are stable due to lack of scientific data to the contrary. (Its the whole benefit of the doubt that got them protected in the first place).

Basically a scientist needs a time series of data to identify a change in population. They havnt been researching population numbers long enough so they ASSUME no change despite plenty of non scientific evidence to the contrary.

The only way past this gridlock is to do more research so in a few years they will IMHO match up with the tonnes of anecdotal evidence that GW numbers are up significantly.

Yep its relatively expensive (but still pretty small at $5 to $10 mill per year), yep it will take time and yep more people will die needlessly in the meantime but its the only sure fire way to eventually get the population measured and then managed.

The problem is that your choosing to ignore the fact that they do have a very good idea on shark numbers.

www.nespmarine.edu.au/system/files/NESP-A3-A%20national%20assessment%20of%20the%20status%20of%20white%20sharks%20Feb%202018.pdf

That testing was done with DNA sampling and genetic mapping. Even at Neptune when a GW was sighted that seemed to be new, it was stabbed and skin/dna sampled. Its been a very big operation, obviously they cant lock that down to exact shark numbers but a very good based estimate is made.

I am referring to scientific data that suggests shark numbers have not rebounded to levels that would be the issue for the attacks. I believe more sharks are in close and possibly more interactions because of the shared space but that is not a case of more sharks in total.

Either way, good luck with your SDL demanding, either way as i say to my 14 year old every time he wants to buy something new, money doesn't just grow on trees..

Yes that's one of the reports I'm referring to that you linked. Definitely not ignoring it. I can only assume you can't actually comprehend it. It's saying we need more time to reliably estimate population growth rates and until then our best fit assumption is no growth. A starting hypothesis for their population model nothing more.

At current research effort levels they estimate 10 years before they can confidently estimate population on west and south coast's. Not good enough.

Stop hiding behind the cost argument. Like I said it's the shark huggers that are creating the need for expensive solutions no one else.

Maybe if your job was to count something (such as white sharks) you might make excuses as to why you would need to count some more over the next decade to make sure you stayed on the payroll. Someone with no logic would see your logic. Someone with common sense would say, hang on buddy, they've been breeding up protected for two decades. We KNOW they're increasing in numbers...

How dare you! Bringing logic in on this!