Lets build better rockets !

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Created by

Macroscien > 9 months ago, 14 Feb 2020

Emeboy

NSW

399 posts

15 Feb 2020 3:01am

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Macroscien said..

Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

I think Macro likes to throw out the random ideas a little bit like science fiction or the movies making up a seemingly preposterous idea... Think 'Get Smart' way back in the day.... A shoe phone?? Preposterous!! Nowdays (nowadays?), we could put a phone in a shoe but prefer to carry them around in our pockets (actually Star Trek already had cellphones didn't they... Beam me up Scotty). A weird idea might just jog someone's thoughts to develop something better... or new.... maybe.... Trouble is, there are a million random preposterous thoughts to every feasible development.

Now for a spiral laid tunnel....
1. The size of the segment pieces required to create a single spiral helix would be way too big and heavy to handle. The Westgate Tunnel in Melbourne is 15m in diameter and each segment ring of 2.4m length requires 10 individual pieces. These pieces are approx. 13-15 ton each.
2. If you are considering a spiral laid tunnel in the similar fashion to a spiral wound pipe, the helix length required for even a small diameter (spiral) tunnel would be quite long, resulting in a significant portion of the freshly dug tunnel to remain unsupported while the helix was being constructed..... if you are going to make the helix a tight pitch and have multiple helixis (helixies, helixi???) which would allow smaller segment pieces..... then why not just make rings?
3. Even with concentric rings, the moulds for these segments are very precisely machined. If you now want to create a spiral helix and break that into manageable segments, the mould complexity would be significantly greater and therefore much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

For a spiral welded fuel tank (presumably under significant pressure)
1. Hoop Stress..... (you might be better off wondering why they do not extrude the cylinders in one piece..... No welds seams at all)

Sorry Macro, these ones might just end up being filed under R....

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....

Look at the cost overruns for our tunnels. Billions wasted. My idea already is that proposed tunnels are too big for that ultimate function. If you could downsize tunel to the pipe size of 1 meter diameter one day, that you could transfer people across globe with speeds of 24,000 km/h and minimize cost below those for typical rail road. Look at the diameter of Boring company proposed tunnels ( downsize) . You already see this move in right direction.Now on the picture above you could count how many concrete pieces/ element you may need to round the spiral circle. Very manageable size for fully automatic underground assembly. As I said , time will tell if I am right. Lets wait 5 years and see how tunnels and rockets are build. But idea like that firstly controversial, quickly convert into obvious. So another , next invective will be accusation that I come with such obvious solution, that every kid know about. Once explained the most ingenuous becomes obviously easy.

1m diameter at 24,000km/hr?? I think they have already thought of this one too.....

Chris6791

3271 posts

15 Feb 2020 5:55am

random YouTube video on spiral pipe making shows many reasons why it won't work for tunnels. Least of all how you're going to feed new material to the end of the pipe, regardless of diameter and all of the quality control for the manufacturing of the concrete tunnel sections fed to a TBM are done in a factory setting, not underground.

if you really thing spiral welding for Elon's rockets is the way to go, tweet him, let him know and report back.

saltiest1

NSW

2562 posts

15 Feb 2020 9:30am

Rockets will be obsolete once the worm hole/time shifting disk is operational.

Chris6791

3271 posts

15 Feb 2020 9:11am

Elon is probably working on that too, or Uber.

Chris 249

NSW

3531 posts

17 Feb 2020 8:15am

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youngbull said..
FormulaNova, does not read like bullying but clearly comes off as trolling. Trolling hard due to the multiple post.

Macro, at a guess I would say its to keep the strength along a certain area of the stainless sheet, also the direction of the welds would play a major part in achieving this.
In my experience spiral pipe has great strength but when it fails it is very fast with no warning and becomes an un-serviceable repair.

I don't think FN has trolled anyone, either. He simply asked a technical question that Macro has not answered.

When it comes to bullying, you can argue that someone who essentially says "X is a good idea but rocket scientists have been ignoring it for 75 years" is sort of bullying rocket scientists. If this was a better way then logically thousands of rocket scientists must be morons for not coming up with it in the countless hours they have spent designing rockets. Implying that many highly-trained people are utter morons is not respecting them, to say the least.

Chris 249

NSW

3531 posts

17 Feb 2020 8:22am

Oh, by the way, here's what happens when people who reckon they are experts ignore what the real experts tell them about rocket fuel tank joints;

?t=95

How would a spiral-welded tank handle the expansion and contraction involved in going from sitting idly on a launch pad in below-freezing conditions, to spewing out gases at 3600 degrees? The Challenger disaster was caused when the managers ignored the rocket scientist's attempts to warn them about exactly that problem.

Jolene

1622 posts

17 Feb 2020 5:35am

Welding sheets together to build tanks or cylinders may be a thing of the past in the aerospace industry. Carbon fiber filament winding is far superior in many applications. I have seen solid fuel rocket motor casings made this way that even incorporate the nozzle during the winding.

Chris 249

NSW

3531 posts

17 Feb 2020 8:48am

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Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

It'd be great if everyone played nice. That would require people to respect others, and implying that thousands of very smart professionals have spent decades being morons and ignoring superior designs is not respecting others. Nor is getting abusive and personal when people ask for technical information about the practicality of ideas, as FN and I do.

Get Smart's shoe phone or Dick Tracey's watch phone can be seen as classic examples where saying "this is a cool idea" was basically very easy, but very useless. As early as 1906 there were cartoonists playing with the simple and obvious ideas of mobile phones, but that got no one anywhere. There seems to be no evidence that those concepts played the slightest part in developing the cellphone. What does seem to have been vital is work like that of Atalla etc in the development of silicon integrated circuits, which in turn relied on respecting and then building on the learning of others; ie the vital paper on stabilising the surface of silicon has 47 references showing where the team learned from others instead of essentially saying "these people are morons who have been ignoring obvious and easy ideas".

It's interesting that in the sports I do, the people who win world titles and gold medals respect and learn from others and then added their own expertise on top of the existing excellence. The ones who spend their lives criticising everyone and implying that winning is easy are the ones who spend their sailing careers trailing the pack. Similarly, the Wright Brothers learned from Smeaton, Lilienthal and others and they created an aircraft where all the guys who thought they just had to flap their arms and jump off a tower failed. If learning from others was good enough for the Wright Brothers, Einstein and Newton, why is it not good enough for the rest of us?

Chris 249

NSW

3531 posts

17 Feb 2020 9:00am

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Jolene said..
Welding sheets together to build tanks or cylinders may be a thing of the past in the aerospace industry. Carbon fiber filament winding is far superior in many applications. I have seen solid fuel rocket motor casings made this way that even incorporate the nozzle during the winding.

That's pretty damn amazing, considering the temperatures!

The fact that rocket scientists can achieve that makes it even stranger to assume that they are a pack of complete morons who have been ignoring the right way to build tanks for 75 years or so.

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

20 Feb 2020 11:04am

Once we have got stainless steel fuel tank sorted , the time comes to implement my next big invention in our SB rocket.
We replace traditional rocket engines with my newest design of circular detonation engine. In short instead of slow combustion of propellent and oxidized , in my latest design combustion mixture undergo continuous circular detonation ( controlled explosion) .There is great advantage of proposed system with 5x greater speed of escaping gasses and higher efficiency of detonation over combustion by 25% for the same material used. But to see such advanced device working we need to wait another 50 years of so , I am afraid.

Mobydisc

NSW

9029 posts

20 Feb 2020 12:44pm

How high can a stainless steel building be built? Built one that goes up into space if we can.

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

20 Feb 2020 1:02pm

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Mobydisc said..
How high can a stainless steel building be built? Built one that goes up into space if we can.

That interesting question and not trivial at all.
So far high steel structure is built like grid - Eiffel Tower.There is limit how much mass construction could sustain.
But if instead of grid we build a enclosed structure - imagine ice cream cone here- filled with lighter then air gas - helium- then our building will be " floating" not just standing. Thin steel or plastic envelope keep our gas from escaping.,All weight is compensated by displaced air - roughly 1 kg per m3.
So one day we may be able to build building maybe not to the orbit but 5 -10 km tall. Our main enemy will be wind resistance, but incorporating winglets at certain level may he alleviate that problem. The higher the wind - the higher lifting force up.The basic model we could create by attaching balloons, platforms to teether lines at certain high increments. Lets imagine 3 strong lines anchored at triangle at ground level and then round platform 10-20 meters thick every 100 meters of height. 10 leves and we have 1 km tall structure with tourists platform , observation deck or even offices.
20 levels and we are well beyond higher artificial structure ever build.

That building unfortunately maybe in constant movement reacting to all wind pressure.

Chris6791

3271 posts

20 Feb 2020 12:53pm

Engineers can build as high as you want. It's usually the economics and practicality that prevent it.

kiterboy

2614 posts

20 Feb 2020 2:00pm

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Macroscien said..

I use to tell my friends overseas that Australia is that beautiful place where people great strangers " Good day , mate ! "

I think this is the most offensive idea I've seen you post.
No-one says 'Good Day, mate'!

It's 'G'day'!

Chris6791

3271 posts

20 Feb 2020 2:52pm

futurism.com/the-byte/rocket-design-powered-by-explosions

someone beat you to it Macro.

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

2 Mar 2020 10:17pm

There is only my way or wrong way.It seems that SpaceX still need to learn to build spiral tanks instead of welded square pieces.

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

that tank burst

same apply to their tunnels where my proposal of using spiral cladding could speed up tunnel boring 10x

cleantechnica.com/2020/03/01/prufrock-next-generation-tunnel-boring-machine-is-working-somewhere/?fbclid=IwAR3Y-RtTPk0TCwydomtHkEAloupNDu7lO_uYmB8CaXIyU9ZiBjb2NbZUhZ0

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

2 Mar 2020 10:19pm

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Chris6791 said..
futurism.com/the-byte/rocket-design-powered-by-explosions

someone beat you to it Macro.

Not exactly, because their machine is working cyclical/ intermittent/pulsed and my proposal regards continuous and circular detonation wave. We could wait another 50 years and see which idea wins.My continuous detonation wave engine is 20-30 % more efficient over traditional rocket engine on same propellent mixture.Then simplicity of construction, better heat management and less moving parts.- clear advantage of mine circular (or even spiral )continuous detonation wave.

Chris6791

3271 posts

3 Mar 2020 5:16pm

This one has just popped up.

actiomax

NSW

1576 posts

3 Mar 2020 10:08pm

Chris I worked for Parker hannifin & they we're the subcontractors who built all that stuff for NASA & the headlines in Cleverland we're Parker hannifin kills space shuttles crew .
Thats there main base
They had reprasentives in Australia with that paper & every piece of documentation to prove that they had previously & repeatedly told NASA that was a problem & basically NASA told them to F off build the stuff we tell you we're the rocket scientist not you .
The next day .
So I don't really know how you come up with that.
The engineers told the rocket scientist there was a problem with blow by on the hand scrapped out metal seal for the o ring from the last launch & it had burnt holes through it .
But bills have to Paid & the boss especially when there the customer is always right apparently so that's that truly an avoidable tragedy.
I actually made some parts for that because Parker hannifin is world wide & every plant got a little something to do . It just so happened to fall to me .
So I got dragged off to councillor from the states to reassure me it's not my fault & not to feel guilty.
Had full in depth explanation on top of the entire factory getting an explanation.
It was pretty weird .

NotWal

QLD

7435 posts

3 Mar 2020 10:46pm

^^ Excellent vid. Pity Mad Mike Hughes didn't see it.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

3 Mar 2020 9:12pm

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NotWal said..
^^ Excellent vid. Pity Mad Mike Hughes didn't see it.

I think his name precluded him from watching it. Did you see rational Mike? He was watching that video on rocket construction techniques...

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

23 Sep 2020 10:41pm

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Macroscien said..

I think that even prediction will be quite difficult to made for spiral rocket fuel tank. What SpaceX done last week was pumping newly build tank till it explode. Apparently fuel tank passed safety marks perfectly.The same can be done with spiral tank and comparison made. If not SpaceX then Chinese or India can come with such solution in order to beat competition. But this design if works fill perfectly to Elon plans to build one thousand Spaceship rockets in order to send 1 mln people to the Mars in the space of one generation ( his lifetime) . Proposed spiral construction , welded in horizontal position fits perfectly for mass production and cheapest cost possible.

techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/spacex-succeeds-with-a-key-pressure-test-in-its-starship-program/

Amazingly I come across now Youtube Starship program update, where Elon Musk just confirmed that future versions after 1,2 made of welded rectangular plates , will be made of single coil, spirally welded , one seem.Even more amazingly I manage to post this idea telepathically backwards in time, good half a year , so Elon could present this 11 month ago....

so no need to worry, Starship will be spirally welded as we requested here.

and spiraling technology is good for battery in Tesla too
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/elon-musk-tesla-battery-day-power-model-s-b537222.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1bI-LqmhQECeMqs9rh2ywGfWa_X_T7YreRCbn_VmZGVu9flX0IG4Ry658#Echobox=1600848589

now I only need to learn if his tunneling Boring company managed to have similar update on their tunel construction...

Harrow

NSW

4521 posts

23 Sep 2020 11:01pm

One of Ratcat's best.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

24 Sep 2020 5:25am

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Macroscien said..

techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/spacex-succeeds-with-a-key-pressure-test-in-its-starship-program/

You should sue Optima for copying your technology many years in the past:

www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/technology/spiralcell-technology#:~:text=The%20heart%20of%20OPTIMA%C2%AE,outperforms%20conventional%20flat%2Dplate%20batteries.

Paddles B'mere

QLD

3586 posts

25 Sep 2020 8:51am

Maybe "Mad" Mike Hughes didn't actually die ............................ it was just a Youtube fake death stunt ......................... he now has re-settled on a farm in QLD ...................................

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

25 Sep 2020 11:39am

busterwa

3782 posts

27 Sep 2020 12:36pm

Subsonic

3384 posts

27 Sep 2020 6:53pm

The thing that worries me about Macro is that he strikes me as being the next likely "Ricks Reactor" story.

landyacht

5921 posts

30 Sep 2020 8:35pm

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Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....

correct me If Ive got this wrong, but surely the sheets they are using are at some point in a huge roll that is rolled out and cut to size so that it can be welded back together . therefor deliver in a roll and feed into the robotic welder as a spiral then cut the end to finish that cut end is now ready to make next spiral. I would bet that the technology is already around and in common use but on a smaller scale, or even on a much bigger scale , like oil refinery tanks. just like when making a modern high pressure steel water pipe. EG the goldfields water pipe which they still make in steel because plastic isn't they strong enough. to me spiral make so much sense.

landyacht

5921 posts

30 Sep 2020 8:41pm

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Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....

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