This post could serve as a test how long it takes for good ideas to hit ground.
SpaceX now is using single stainless steel sheets welded into narrow cylinders then welded together to make long fuel tank.My proposal is to use single tape like steel sheet welded spirally. One continuous weld , one sheet to create long cylinder.
Edges could overlap few cm ( iches) and double weld increase strength, prevent leaks.
Now we could wait and count how long it takes for good ideas to been implemented ( after being rediscovered independently)
In our case whole fuel cylinder can be welded quickly and cheaply in horizontal position on gigantic machine.

www.space.com/spacex-starship-prototype-first-2020-flight-soon.html

The same method could be used to stack reinforcing blocks in drilled by Boring company tunnels.Instead of consecutive cylinders, lets do spiral.


www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-spacex-starship-production-well-underway/

" Spiral way" could be also used to create huge structured in space for future space station. Rolls of steel could be welded spirally to create large airtights cylinders. Roll is easy to fit inside rocket compartment for transportation into Earth orbit.

You lost me after 'good ideas'.

Aren't pipes made this way?

How is your 'good idea' novel and what testing would you do to prove its better?

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FormulaNova said..
You lost me after 'good ideas'.

Aren't pipes made this way?

How is your 'good idea' novel and what testing would you do to prove its better?

pipes yes but not tunnels and rockets.
Now is " me" contra traditional way.
Lets wait and see how rockets are build in 5 years from now.
My way or their way.
BTW , You could use the same to make missiles production cheaper and mass made ( )Obviously missle made of stainless steel nickel covered , welded spirally have another advantage over existing- but we don't even want to talk about this now and here.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..
You lost me after 'good ideas'.

Aren't pipes made this way?

How is your 'good idea' novel and what testing would you do to prove its better?

pipes yes but not tunnels and rockets.
Now is " me" contra traditional way.
Lets wait and see how rockets are build in 5 years from now.
My way or their way.
BTW , You could use the same to make missiles production cheaper and mass made ( )

In 5 days you would have forgotten about this let alone 5 years.

You seem to be missing any detail on why this is better. Are you taking pot shots at ideas and hoping that one works out?

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FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..
You lost me after 'good ideas'.

Aren't pipes made this way?

How is your 'good idea' novel and what testing would you do to prove its better?

pipes yes but not tunnels and rockets.
Now is " me" contra traditional way.
Lets wait and see how rockets are build in 5 years from now.
My way or their way.
BTW , You could use the same to make missiles production cheaper and mass made ( )

In 5 days you would have forgotten about this let alone 5 years.

You seem to be missing any detail on why this is better. Are you taking pot shots at ideas and hoping that one works out?

Advantage is obvious for people assembly , doing this things.
Cost of mass production is another one.
Simplicity of welding spiral as against single rectangular sheets in another. In tunneling increase speed of concrete block assembly.
Open this thread in 5 years from now to check who was right, ( as usual , with NBN included) .
But indeed your long and short term memory have not a chance for a period longer then 7 day.Now, please if you could shut up, from personal attack.
Diverting from merritt and technical discussion to personal abuse exchange.

?uck rockets, let's go with an elevator.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..
You lost me after 'good ideas'.

Aren't pipes made this way?

How is your 'good idea' novel and what testing would you do to prove its better?

pipes yes but not tunnels and rockets.
Now is " me" contra traditional way.
Lets wait and see how rockets are build in 5 years from now.
My way or their way.
BTW , You could use the same to make missiles production cheaper and mass made ( )

In 5 days you would have forgotten about this let alone 5 years.

You seem to be missing any detail on why this is better. Are you taking pot shots at ideas and hoping that one works out?

Advantage is obvious for people assembly , doing this things.
Cost of mass production is another one.
Simplicity of welding spiral as against single rectangular sheets in another. In tunneling increase speed of concrete block assembly.
Open this thread in 5 years from now to check who was right, ( as usual , with NBN included) .
But indeed your long and short term memory have not a chance for a period longer then 7 day.Now, please if you could shut up, from personal attack.
Diverting from merritt and technical discussion to personal abuse exchange.

I don't think you understand what a personal attack is. A personal attack is where you are attacking someone with an abusive remark or relating to something about you personally.

Me, I am attacking your hare-brained ideas. Not as a group of ideas, but individually as I don't know if there has been one that has shown any merit. These ideas are so poor that when I am challenging them for justification you are then claiming you are being personally attacked...

I have watched those tunnelling programs and from what I can tell it seems pretty efficient. They have the tunnel boring machine operating and then behind it they are placing segments of precast concrete and steel panels, and locking those into place. I think they rely on the compressive strength of the concrete as the last piece locks that ring into place. Sometimes they even have to inject a caulk of cement and other materials in order to seal it up.

I think it was Elon Musk that said to seek negative comments from your friends and then "RESOLVE THEM".

I wonder how you could contrast the compressive strength of a steel tube versus a concrete one based on equal cost per metre?

I know you aren't a millenial, but this seems to relate back to the idea of calling your mommy if someone at work dares to correct your spelling. 'Mommy, he tried to make me justify my idea, but I just KNOW that its a good one. Mark my words.'

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Macroscien said..

Diverting from merritt and technical discussion to personal abuse exchange.

Sorry, where was that discussion about technical merrit again? I must have missed it.

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FormulaNova said..

I have watched those tunnelling programs and from what I can tell it seems pretty efficient.

but process could be made more efficient where concrete blocks are arranged into spiral not circle.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

I have watched those tunnelling programs and from what I can tell it seems pretty efficient.

but process could be made more efficient where concrete blocks are arranged into spiral not circle.

I doubt it. Casting, transporting and erecting spiral concrete slabs sounds a lot more difficult....

Construction companies are bloody good at working out efficient processes as their bottom line depends on it.

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Paradox said..

Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

I have watched those tunnelling programs and from what I can tell it seems pretty efficient.

but process could be made more efficient where concrete blocks are arranged into spiral not circle.

I doubt it. Casting, transporting and erecting spiral concrete slabs sounds a lot more difficult....

Construction companies are bloody good at working out efficient processes as their bottom line depends on it.

I don't think that casting concrete slabs to assemble into spiral will be any more difficult. At this moment you have whole circle divided/ composited from several smaller blocks.They are arranged to create walls of tunel.
In my idea blocks are arranged to progressively create spiral not closed circle. Shape of the single block must be then smartly designed - like a bent rectangular, some smart locking also needed for those elements. I think that even main point will be in design on this smart shape elements. But once you do so - you could assemble tunnel in one continuous spiral not segments.CAD designed block could also allow to mage bend where needed.




maybe by cutting corners we could also create locks that do prevent spreading when some parts of the tunnel fail.

so designing this smart blocks - elements could be the best patented secret.

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FormulaNova said..
Me, I am attacking your hare-brained ideas. Not as a group of ideas, but individually as I don't know if there has been one that has shown any merit. These ideas are so poor that when I am challenging them for justification you are then claiming you are being personally attacked...

Why did I never realise it was spelled "hare-brained" and not "hair-brained"?

Then again, someone with a brain made of hair would be no smarter than someone with a brain from a hare.

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FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..

Diverting from merritt and technical discussion to personal abuse exchange.

Sorry, where was that discussion about technical merrit again? I must have missed it.

If you comments do not meet criteria of "online bullying" I don't know what else could.

Could you shut up and do not comment on my post , please?
You could imagine that I do not exist, and ignore my post completely.
I really don't like to waste my energy to dispute idiots.
If whole SB community don't like any of my ideas or post, I may stop publishing them here, but it shouldn't be case of single antisocial individuum.If there is just a single other SB member happy to read and exchange in friendly manner that is all I hope for.

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Macroscien said..
Could you shut up and do not comment on my post , please?
You could imagine that I do not exist, and ignore my post completely.

No, but thank you for the offer. Do you not like having your ideas critiqued?

I am only here to try and make you live up to your idol Elon. Without my help you will just be another person with ideas. With my criticism, you could be a world class entrepreneur.

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Macroscien said..
If you comments do not meet criteria of "online bullying" I don't know what else could.

You do disservice to those poor people that actually suffer from cyber-bullying. The fact that you do not recognise the difference worries me.

Perhaps you can start a 'me-too' movement, but I think your concerns about having your ideas tested is a little bit insignificant compared to some poor child being teased mercilesly online.

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Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
Me, I am attacking your hare-brained ideas. Not as a group of ideas, but individually as I don't know if there has been one that has shown any merit. These ideas are so poor that when I am challenging them for justification you are then claiming you are being personally attacked...

Why did I never realise it was spelled "hare-brained" and not "hair-brained"?

Then again, someone with a brain made of hair would be no smarter than someone with a brain from a hare.

I suspect I saw the same use one day and googled it. I think either works, as you point out.

Then again, I used to work with a bunch of technicians older than me that used to have major lunchtime discussions in the tearoom about whether it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'. It was more interesting in those days as you couldn't just google the answer.

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FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held such strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

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Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

Yeah, there's a cold chisel song, and I always thought they were talking about 'youth in Asia'... why? Well, now I understand,.

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FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..
If you comments do not meet criteria of "online bullying" I don't know what else could.

You do disservice to those poor people that actually suffer from cyber-bullying. The fact that you do not recognise the difference worries me.

Perhaps you can start a 'me-too' movement, but I think your concerns about having your ideas tested is a little bit insignificant compared to some poor child being teased mercilesly online.

I think that as a first definition could serve " that somebody feel bullied" . That is me here.

I use to tell my friends overseas that Australia is that beautiful place where people great strangers " Good day , mate ! "
not
" break your legs motherf**".

You must be the exception here greeting all my post with nastinies, which actually remind me the rest of the world. Places where people do hate each other for no obvious reasons at all.

I prefer rather where my enemy is subject , problem to resolve, improvement to be made, hard case to crack. How to build not to destroy , even if that is only somebody dreams.

FormulaNova, does not read like bullying but clearly comes off as trolling. Trolling hard due to the multiple post.

Macro, at a guess I would say its to keep the strength along a certain area of the stainless sheet, also the direction of the welds would play a major part in achieving this.
In my experience spiral pipe has great strength but when it fails it is very fast with no warning and becomes an un-serviceable repair.

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Macroscien said....
Could you shut up and do not comment on my post , please?
You could imagine that I do not exist, and ignore my post completely.

Careful what you wish for. Everybody might do that.

Select to expand quote

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held such strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

How about toeing the line vs towing it? I always thought that the former was correct, being a simile suggesting standing in exactly the right spot like a line of soldiers, but towing could evoke the image of hauling a barge along a canal by using a horse or men on a tow path.
It's not always easy to be pedantic

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Mr Milk said..

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held such strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

How about toeing the line vs towing it? I always thought that the former was correct, being a simile suggesting standing in exactly the right spot like a line of soldiers, but towing could evoke the image of hauling a barge along a canal by using a horse or men on a tow path.
It's not always easy to be pedantic

Is it trolling? Or trawling?


I know most will say trolling. But it always struck me as trawling being more fitting to what "trolls" do online. So much so that i wonder if it started out as trawling and then became trolling, till it was so widely accepted that is what it is.

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youngbull said..
FormulaNova, does not read like bullying but clearly comes off as trolling. Trolling hard due to the multiple post.

Macro, at a guess I would say its to keep the strength along a certain area of the stainless sheet, also the direction of the welds would play a major part in achieving this.
In my experience spiral pipe has great strength but when it fails it is very fast with no warning and becomes an un-serviceable repair.

I think that even prediction will be quite difficult to made for spiral rocket fuel tank. What SpaceX done last week was pumping newly build tank till it explode. Apparently fuel tank passed safety marks perfectly.The same can be done with spiral tank and comparison made. If not SpaceX then Chinese or India can come with such solution in order to beat competition. But this design if works fill perfectly to Elon plans to build one thousand Spaceship rockets in order to send 1 mln people to the Mars in the space of one generation ( his lifetime) . Proposed spiral construction , welded in horizontal position fits perfectly for mass production and cheapest cost possible.



techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/spacex-succeeds-with-a-key-pressure-test-in-its-starship-program/

Why not think bigger macro? Why not think of a way for a vehicle to get into space without requiring a massive fuel burn?

im pretty sure the rocket scientists have got their heads around the best way to construct a fuel tank already.

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Subsonic said..

Mr Milk said..

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held such strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

How about toeing the line vs towing it? I always thought that the former was correct, being a simile suggesting standing in exactly the right spot like a line of soldiers, but towing could evoke the image of hauling a barge along a canal by using a horse or men on a tow path.
It's not always easy to be pedantic

Is it trolling? Or trawling?


I know most will say trolling. But it always struck me as trawling being more fitting to what "trolls" do online. So much so that i wonder if it started out as trawling and then became trolling, till it was so widely accepted that is what it is.

I know when I first started using the internet, when it was text only, it was from trolling, i.e. throw out some really obvious bait to get someone incandescent with rage or at least reply with nasty words, but then it somehow slipped in meaning to where people think its about 'trolls', i.e. living under a bridge, but it didn't originate from there.

It was always about throwing out bait and waiting for a response. I remember asking on a car news group I used to use all the time about why my clutch kept slipping after revving to 4000 rpm and then dropping it in first. That sort of thing.

Now, some people seem to think trolling is just insulting people, but it is meant to be, at least it was, more about getting people to respond by dangling something in front of them..

For what its worth, I am not trolling Macroscien. I am just trying to get him to look at the defects in his ideas as he seems to have a brain fart, come up with something that he thinks will change the world, and then declines to look at the negatives. He has even gone to the effort of quoting Elon Musk as backup, but ignoring the significant bit about fixing the problems...

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Macroscien said..

I think that as a first definition could serve " that somebody feel bullied" . That is me here.

Nah, sorry, I don't believe in that PC bullsh1t about 'if someone feels that they are bullied, then they are'. That makes sense in the workplace, but there still needs to be something behind it.

You can't stand up at work and say 'Steve smiles at me when I wash up my coffee cup, so I feel bullied'.... just because you "feel it". You actually have to do something demonstrable to show that you are actually bullying someone. What a typical person would see as bullying behavior, not just because you don't like being called on your silly ideas, and not even in a nasty way at that.

In your case, its just rubbish. I hate to use the terms because they are over-used, but you really are behaving like a snow-flake or a flower petal as you can't stand to be criticised. I saw the same behavior with Chris where you were upset that he brought scientific argument into your ideas and you accused him of picking on you and bullying you.

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Subsonic said..

Mr Milk said..

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
it was 'a fowl swoop' or a 'fell swoop'.

Yeah, that one's always been a beauty. 'Dip', not 'dim', your headlights is another one. I hate to admit I was about 21 years old when I was still wondering why so many people held such strong views against young people in China, then one day I saw the word in print in a newspaper article.... "Euthanasia".

How about toeing the line vs towing it? I always thought that the former was correct, being a simile suggesting standing in exactly the right spot like a line of soldiers, but towing could evoke the image of hauling a barge along a canal by using a horse or men on a tow path.
It's not always easy to be pedantic

Is it trolling? Or trawling?


I know most will say trolling. But it always struck me as trawling being more fitting to what "trolls" do online. So much so that i wonder if it started out as trawling and then became trolling, till it was so widely accepted that is what it is.

Good point Subsonic.
I once pointed out that the Fremantle Doctor was originally called the Fremantle Docker (a sailing term).
A Perth woman decided I was an ill informed condescending idiot.

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Subsonic said..
Why not think bigger macro? Why not think of a way for a vehicle to get into space without requiring a massive fuel burn?

im pretty sure the rocket scientists have got their heads around the best way to construct a fuel tank already.

Piece of piss. Use a big hydrogen balloon to lift the rocket to the jet stream. The jet stream gives you some speed, but if you compress the hydrogen in the balloon and then burn it like a conventional rocket, you get the real boost because you are already in the low pressure on the edge of space, so drag is lower and the rocket accelerates faster

Now now kids.... Play nice

I think Macro likes to throw out the random ideas a little bit like science fiction or the movies making up a seemingly preposterous idea... Think 'Get Smart' way back in the day.... A shoe phone?? Preposterous!! Nowdays (nowadays?), we could put a phone in a shoe but prefer to carry them around in our pockets (actually Star Trek already had cellphones didn't they... Beam me up Scotty). A weird idea might just jog someone's thoughts to develop something better... or new.... maybe.... Trouble is, there are a million random preposterous thoughts to every feasible development.

Now for a spiral laid tunnel....
1. The size of the segment pieces required to create a single spiral helix would be way too big and heavy to handle. The Westgate Tunnel in Melbourne is 15m in diameter and each segment ring of 2.4m length requires 10 individual pieces. These pieces are approx. 13-15 ton each.
2. If you are considering a spiral laid tunnel in the similar fashion to a spiral wound pipe, the helix length required for even a small diameter (spiral) tunnel would be quite long, resulting in a significant portion of the freshly dug tunnel to remain unsupported while the helix was being constructed..... if you are going to make the helix a tight pitch and have multiple helixis (helixies, helixi???) which would allow smaller segment pieces..... then why not just make rings?
3. Even with concentric rings, the moulds for these segments are very precisely machined. If you now want to create a spiral helix and break that into manageable segments, the mould complexity would be significantly greater and therefore much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

For a spiral welded fuel tank (presumably under significant pressure)
1. Hoop Stress..... (you might be better off wondering why they do not extrude the cylinders in one piece..... No welds seams at all)

Sorry Macro, these ones might just end up being filed under R....

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....

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Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

I think Macro likes to throw out the random ideas a little bit like science fiction or the movies making up a seemingly preposterous idea... Think 'Get Smart' way back in the day.... A shoe phone?? Preposterous!! Nowdays (nowadays?), we could put a phone in a shoe but prefer to carry them around in our pockets (actually Star Trek already had cellphones didn't they... Beam me up Scotty). A weird idea might just jog someone's thoughts to develop something better... or new.... maybe.... Trouble is, there are a million random preposterous thoughts to every feasible development.

Now for a spiral laid tunnel....
1. The size of the segment pieces required to create a single spiral helix would be way too big and heavy to handle. The Westgate Tunnel in Melbourne is 15m in diameter and each segment ring of 2.4m length requires 10 individual pieces. These pieces are approx. 13-15 ton each.
2. If you are considering a spiral laid tunnel in the similar fashion to a spiral wound pipe, the helix length required for even a small diameter (spiral) tunnel would be quite long, resulting in a significant portion of the freshly dug tunnel to remain unsupported while the helix was being constructed..... if you are going to make the helix a tight pitch and have multiple helixis (helixies, helixi???) which would allow smaller segment pieces..... then why not just make rings?
3. Even with concentric rings, the moulds for these segments are very precisely machined. If you now want to create a spiral helix and break that into manageable segments, the mould complexity would be significantly greater and therefore much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

For a spiral welded fuel tank (presumably under significant pressure)
1. Hoop Stress..... (you might be better off wondering why they do not extrude the cylinders in one piece..... No welds seams at all)

Sorry Macro, these ones might just end up being filed under R....

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....

Look at the cost overruns for our tunnels. Billions wasted. My idea already is that proposed tunnels are too big for that ultimate function. If you could downsize tunel to the pipe size of 1 meter diameter one day, that you could transfer people across globe with speeds of 24,000 km/h and minimize cost below those for typical rail road. Look at the diameter of Boring company proposed tunnels ( downsize) . You already see this move in right direction.Now on the picture above you could count how many concrete pieces/ element you may need to round the spiral circle. Very manageable size for fully automatic underground assembly. As I said , time will tell if I am right. Lets wait 5 years and see how tunnels and rockets are build. But idea like that firstly controversial, quickly convert into obvious. So another , next invective will be accusation that I come with such obvious solution, that every kid know about. Once explained the most ingenuous becomes obviously easy.