Former NASA Climatologist explains

> 10 years ago
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Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
10 Jul 2011 5:31pm
barn said...

Mark _australia said...

barn said...

LOL.. Does anybody want me to start a thread proving evolution by natural selection,


I would love you to.

Because all we have ever seen is change within species, NOT significant changes producing a new species.

Therefore it is still theory and unproven.

Not fact, and certainly not science - which is study of observable phenomena and repeatable


On it, gimmie a bit.. brb


Yeah I can google too
and you will find both as much info for both sides
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
10 Jul 2011 5:37pm


Haha I promise to avoid google unless looking for pictures of giraffes, my million Bio textbooks might help..
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
10 Jul 2011 5:42pm
if you do find pictures of giraffes can you explain why they have the same number of neck vertebrae as humans.... just longer bones.

This enables them to reach high leaves, which would also have been an advantageous 'adaptation' for horses, cows, zebra, etc etc but they didn't develop it. Not one other animal DID take up that 'mutation'
Perhaps contrary to the theory of evolution?

FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
10 Jul 2011 8:22pm
log man said...
No ,I can't, but others can:answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080507184409AAZCX2y


Which wave is being absorbed by CO2, and which wave is the Sun emitting that has a free pass???

So the Sun emits a special wave, then it gets turned in to an Infrared wave on Earth that gets trapped? Hmmm.

How much energy can CO2 absorb? (It's already a gas on Earth at 1at)


barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
10 Jul 2011 6:32pm
Mark _australia said...

if you do find pictures of giraffes can you explain why they have the same number of neck vertebrae as humans.... just longer bones.

This enables them to reach high leaves, which would also have been an advantageous 'adaptation' for horses, cows, zebra, etc etc but they didn't develop it. Not one other animal DID take up that 'mutation'
Perhaps contrary to the theory of evolution?




Elephants can also reach high leaves, there is more than one way to skin a cat. And there was a species of Camel that evolved a Giraffe like neck..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aepycamelus

There is a perfectly good living to be made living off grass like a horse or cow. Long necks suck.

--

ANyway I think what your talking about is creation, where every animal was created in the exact form we see today. Thats what ID evolved from.
Ados
Ados
WA
421 posts
WA, 421 posts
10 Jul 2011 6:37pm
Mark _australia said...

if you do find pictures of giraffes can you explain why they have the same number of neck vertebrae as humans.... just longer bones.

This enables them to reach high leaves, which would also have been an advantageous 'adaptation' for horses, cows, zebra, etc etc but they didn't develop it. Not one other animal DID take up that 'mutation'
Perhaps contrary to the theory of evolution?




Interesting point of view. Are you saying that giraffes evolved from humans?
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
10 Jul 2011 6:48pm
This is a better one it explains about emissions and acidity in the sea.
kk
kk
WA
953 posts
kk kk
WA, 953 posts
10 Jul 2011 8:20pm
Is it just me? But when all some one does is posts is a link ^^^ like the utube one above


Well I just CBF looking at it..

Is it just me?
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
10 Jul 2011 10:25pm
The last guy, the fisherman, I thought had the best idea which is for the policy makers to make the right changes.

I do not believe a "carbon tax" is the right change.

Reeling in the bad practices of the multi-national companies would be a right change.

There is obviously a lot in that but changing the emphasis of those companies from making a profit for the shareholders to one of environmental responsibility above all else, is heading in the right direction.
log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
10 Jul 2011 11:09pm
cisco said...

The last guy, the fisherman, I thought had the best idea which is for the policy makers to make the right changes.

I do not believe a "carbon tax" is the right change.

Reeling in the bad practices of the multi-national companies would be a right change.

There is obviously a lot in that but changing the emphasis of those companies from making a profit for the shareholders to one of environmental responsibility above all else, is heading in the right direction.


That's COMMUNISM Cisco
log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
10 Jul 2011 11:16pm
FlySurfer said...

log man said...
No ,I can't, but others can:answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080507184409AAZCX2y


Which wave is being absorbed by CO2, and which wave is the Sun emitting that has a free pass???

So the Sun emits a special wave, then it gets turned in to an Infrared wave on Earth that gets trapped? Hmmm.

How much energy can CO2 absorb? (It's already a gas on Earth at 1at)





did you have a look at Harry high pants in the video, I thought he explained you question very well
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
11 Jul 2011 10:39am
I'm not sure about all aspects of CO2 in the ocean.

I know:

1.- Coral use the Carbon and Oxygen in CO2 to build itself.
2.- Crustaceans use the Carbon and Oxygen in CO2 to build itself.
3.- Aquariums inject CO2 in to coral to promote better growth.
4.- You would have to burn the planet down to get enough CO2 in the oceans for them to cause coral disintegration
5.- Coral's grow REALLY well in FARKING hot water. I've dived in the red sea. Water was ~32c corals doing fine. It was seriously that hot, and not in the shallows, there it was ~45c.

Like I've said before, I like green. BUT CO2 is fine... lets ban/tax some chemicals. I'd be more than happy to pay an extra 10% to have organic produce.
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
11 Jul 2011 10:52am
I too don't really know how carbon dioxide became the poison that it is today. Plants love the stuff. There are many other chemicals humans produce and dump that are much more harmful than carbon dioxide. Are there not many more pressing environmental issues around today which could be sorted out instead of being concerned about some sort of boogy man in the future that might make our childrens' childrens life a living hell?


log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:28pm
FlySurfer said...

I'm not sure about all aspects of CO2 in the ocean.

I know:

1.- Coral use the Carbon and Oxygen in CO2 to build itself.
2.- Crustaceans use the Carbon and Oxygen in CO2 to build itself.
3.- Aquariums inject CO2 in to coral to promote better growth.
4.- You would have to burn the planet down to get enough CO2 in the oceans for them to cause coral disintegration
5.- Coral's grow REALLY well in FARKING hot water. I've dived in the red sea. Water was ~32c corals doing fine. It was seriously that hot, and not in the shallows, there it was ~45c.

Like I've said before, I like green. BUT CO2 is fine... lets ban/tax some chemicals. I'd be more than happy to pay an extra 10% to have organic produce.


Flysurfer, did you listen to the little video, did it answer your big co2 problem?
This is what you just said "OK log looks like we're on to something here.

1.- If(you explain by what mechanism 1 Carbon atom with an oxygen atom either side of it allows infrared radiation to pass one way but not the other)
Then(I'll accept CO2 can cause warming)".
You seemed to have changed to topic to acidification
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:44pm
Did I mention that one of those Spencerian pamphleteers actually was pretty cute?
Woulda made a move, but she was accompanied by some sort of a matron.
Definitely not a 3-some situation...

... just thought I'd lighten up the thread...
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:17am
kk said...

Is it just me? But when all some one does is posts is a link ^^^ like the utube one above


Well I just CBF looking at it..

Is it just me?


It was just a point of interest that came up when i was browzing the interweb ! You dont have to watch it but i found it educational and it probably fits into a climate change topic of discussion.
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:28pm
Yeah, I'm not convinced by this argument at all: It might be this, it might be that. We just don't know. We don't have the data. We haven't ruled everything out.

To me this is clutching at something you want to be true; the environment we live in is fine.

Then at the end he goes black and white extreme and proposes the only way we can deal with this is by going back to the stone age. It's either the end of our environment or the stone age. Those are the two options in his argument (after he forgets his original argument that it doesn't exist anyway)? And he has the gall to call people that are warning us about climate change hysterical? WTF?

It seems blatantly obvious to me that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Surely we can all agree on this?

It also seems obvious that we are emitting more. We have the data on this. Also we are flattening forests. So our actions are producing more CO2, and less forests to soak it up. Surely we can all agree on this too?

Sure it might be something else, but it seems very, very unlikely. Us producing more CO2, a greenhouse gas, and reducing things that soak it up seems a pretty obvious reason things are getting warmer. Occam's Razor (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor).

The worst case scenario for taking action against CO2 is some change to industry (there is always change anyway) and greater energy efficiency. The worst case scenario for not taking any action is much worse, and as most people like to ignore a really, really bad scenario for the economy.

Look, the data IS there. This guy just pulls stuff out of his arse, comments like "the past ten years weren't the hottest on record, like scientists predicted". You the viewer just take that as fact, or perhaps try to use it as fact in a debate because you saw it on a youtube video. THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. In fact the last ten years WERE the hottest on record: "The eight warmest years on record (since 1880) have all occurred since 2001, with the warmest year being 2005." www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html

Other comments that just come out of nowhere, and sound appealing to some are "...convenient for politicians and profiteers who are intent on regulating global energy for their own power and financial gain". This is beautiful as it appeals to people's fear of both Socialists and greedy Capitalists. It's a paranoid fantasy. Of course we won't see many profiteers in the paper this week saying how pleased they are with the Carbon Tax, and Julia isn't scoring too many political points with it either. It's a tough ****ing sell.

I think us people that actually trust the scientific method (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method), with its own built-in bull**** detectors, are just ****ing tired of pointing out the facts again and again and again and again. And again. I'm tired of listening to these so-called opposing viewpoints again and again. They are old arguments, and stupid, and are designed to make the viewer feel smarter than they really are.

FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
11 Jul 2011 4:04pm
log man said...
Flysurfer, did you listen to the little video, did it answer your big co2 problem?This is what you just said "OK log looks like we're on to something here.

1.- If(you explain by what mechanism 1 Carbon atom with an oxygen atom either side of it allows infrared radiation to pass one way but not the other)
Then(I'll accept CO2 can cause warming)".You seemed to have changed to topic to acidification


Dude, I'm starting to think you're a bit simple. You quoted me... 1.- If(you explain, but then didn't understand the words.

No I didn't watch the video, but I did read some of the answers you sent.

So which special wave does Sun emit that gets turned in to infrared on Earth and then trapped?
log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
11 Jul 2011 4:20pm
FlySurfer said...

log man said...
Flysurfer, did you listen to the little video, did it answer your big co2 problem?This is what you just said "OK log looks like we're on to something here.

1.- If(you explain by what mechanism 1 Carbon atom with an oxygen atom either side of it allows infrared radiation to pass one way but not the other)
Then(I'll accept CO2 can cause warming)".You seemed to have changed to topic to acidification


Dude, I'm starting to think you're a bit simple. You quoted me... 1.- If(you explain, but then didn't understand the words.

No I didn't watch the video, but I did read some of the answers you sent.

So which special wave does Sun emit that gets turned in to infrared on Earth and then trapped?



Sorry mate, I'm not sure I understand your point. I thought you had a fundamental science problem about how the Suns energy can enter our atmosphere but can't get out. So i posted a very good explanation by Prof Scott Denning here http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/climate/greenhouse_gases_scott_denning_movie.html. Do you not Accept this explanation? or do you have another?
SomeOtherGuy
SomeOtherGuy
NSW
807 posts
NSW, 807 posts
11 Jul 2011 4:55pm
evlPanda said...

Sure it might be something else, but it seems very, very unlikely. Us producing more CO2, a greenhouse gas, and reducing things that soak it up seems a pretty obvious reason things are getting warmer. Occam's Razor (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor).


panda, I've come to think that arguing this point is completely ... well ... pointless. At the end of the day, it's inarguable that the climate changes. Just ask the dinosaurs.

What causes it?

Doesn't matter - it changes with us or without us. The question should be - what are we going to DO about it? If the planet is warming as the data seems to lead us to think then we need to act to cool it. Reducing carbon emissions is a damn fine way of doing that. Probably the best shot we've got.

So we need to cut emissions regardless of whether humans are causing climate change or whether it's the volcanos or solar activity or any other vapid, whiny excuse the numbnuts want to throw in to the mix!!!
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
11 Jul 2011 6:20pm
SomeOtherGuy said...
So we need to cut emissions regardless of whether humans are causing climate change or whether it's the volcanos or solar activity or any other vapid, whiny excuse the numbnuts want to throw in to the mix!!!


To save, wait for it... the economy. Think about it; look what a single wet summer in Qld. did to the Australian economy this year.

FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:02pm
log man said...
Sorry mate, I'm not sure I understand your point. I thought you had a fundamental science problem about how the Suns energy can enter our atmosphere but can't get out. So i posted a very good explanation by Prof Scott Denning here http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/climate/greenhouse_gases_scott_denning_movie.html. Do you not Accept this explanation? or do you have another?

Sorry for thinking you may be simple, that was out of order regardless of the context.
I watched the video, and I still don't understand which wave enters the Earth and can't escape (choose 1).
He mentioned light, does that mean that when I'm in the Sun I can't actually feel the infrared light from the Sun, but I'm actually feeling reflected infrared?

... The Sun emits pretty much every wave + a new undefined particle that supposedly changing decay rates (so carbon dating is inaccurate). The problem with the argument is that it should be reflecting an equal amount in both directions.
And the amount of absorption is statistically insignificant.

If we were to triple the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere how much would the Earth warm?


Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:35pm
FlySurfer said...
I watched the video, and I still don't understand which wave enters the Earth and can't escape (choose 1).


I think you don't understand how a greenhouse works then. There is no magic particle that allows waves to enter the earth and not leave and I can't imagine that anyone has ever claimed that.
An actual greenhouse works and doesn't rely on 'magic one way' glass.

This picture is probably the easiest way to explain. Basically some light does indeed get 'reflected' back into space but the light that is captured is bounced back and forth creating a bigger effect that if the atmosphere wasn't there. Each time it 'bounces', it loses a bit more to space but the effect builds.


log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:47pm
What Trant said! Flysurfer your initial estimation is closer to the truth
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
12 Jul 2011 4:44am
I think this thread is getting to the point of:-

"If you can't blind them with science, baffle them with bull shyte."
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
12 Jul 2011 5:52am
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth [such as a stationary Earth] if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy



Two famous astronomers and mathematicians Ptolemaeus and Al-Battani said that:

The Sun is only about 3,000,000 miles from the Earth.



accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=jotspot&passive=1209600&continue=https://sites.google.com/site/sites/system/errors/SiteDisabled?disabledSite%3Ddefaultdomain/earthdeception&followup=https://sites.google.com/site/sites/system/errors/SiteDisabled?disabledSite%3Ddefaultdomain/earthdeception




"Whilst we sit drinking our cup of tea or coffee the World is supposedly rotating at 1,039 mph at the equator, whizzing around the Sun at 66,500 mph, hurtling towards Lyra at 20,000 mph, revolving around the centre of the 'Milky Way' at 500,000 mph and merrily moving at God knows what velocity as a consequence of the 'Big Bong'. And not even a hint of a ripple on the surface of our tea, yet tap the table lightly with your finger and ... !" Neville T. Jones




knigit
knigit
WA
319 posts
WA, 319 posts
12 Jul 2011 7:54am
petermac33 said...

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth [such as a stationary Earth] if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy



Two famous astronomers and mathematicians Ptolemaeus and Al-Battani said that:

The Sun is only about 3,000,000 miles from the Earth.



accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=jotspot&passive=1209600&continue=https://sites.google.com/site/sites/system/errors/SiteDisabled?disabledSite%3Ddefaultdomain/earthdeception&followup=https://sites.google.com/site/sites/system/errors/SiteDisabled?disabledSite%3Ddefaultdomain/earthdeception




"Whilst we sit drinking our cup of tea or coffee the World is supposedly rotating at 1,039 mph at the equator, whizzing around the Sun at 66,500 mph, hurtling towards Lyra at 20,000 mph, revolving around the centre of the 'Milky Way' at 500,000 mph and merrily moving at God knows what velocity as a consequence of the 'Big Bong'. And not even a hint of a ripple on the surface of our tea, yet tap the table lightly with your finger and ... !" Neville T. Jones







^^
We need that facepalm button please moderators.
If you want a laugh, have a read of the earthdeception link, I think even Pm33 must be pulling our legs this time
SomeOtherGuy
SomeOtherGuy
NSW
807 posts
NSW, 807 posts
12 Jul 2011 9:59am
cisco said...

I think this thread is getting to the point of:-

"If you can't blind them with science, baffle them with bull shyte."


Looks like reasonable science to me, cisco.

Another way of thinking about it...

On the surface of the moon (no atmosphere) if you stand in the sunlight, you get toasted. If you stand in the shadows, your tits freeze off.

Next door here on Earth, same sun, same sunlight, same distance, same everything and we don't get these effects because we've got an atmosphere that absorbs some of the energy from the sun and traps it.

Just how much energy depends on what's in the atmosphere.
log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
12 Jul 2011 10:09am
Trant said...

FlySurfer said...
I watched the video, and I still don't understand which wave enters the Earth and can't escape (choose 1).


I think you don't understand how a greenhouse works then. There is no magic particle that allows waves to enter the earth and not leave and I can't imagine that anyone has ever claimed that.
An actual greenhouse works and doesn't rely on 'magic one way' glass.

This picture is probably the easiest way to explain. Basically some light does indeed get 'reflected' back into space but the light that is captured is bounced back and forth creating a bigger effect that if the atmosphere wasn't there. Each time it 'bounces', it loses a bit more to space but the effect builds.





Well Flysurfer, you convinced by the explainations?
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
12 Jul 2011 10:22am
So what we really need is some holes in the OZONE layer to let the hot air out Haven't we just closed them up?

I wish people would make up their minds
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