I work with a croatian fella he talks a lot about the hyperinflation when he was growing up, I find it amazing totally amazing when he gets into a spiel about it.
He is actually the guy that designed the chip/program that orientates photos and videos on mobile phones to the way you turn your screen... so all in all a pretty smart cookie.
I started a hyperinflatiin thread a while ago and there were a few good comments and a bit of banter.
Whilst this is seperable too that but as noted there has been the greece scenario and india and many countless others as examples of system collapse.
This same gent went into great detail about having 1000 in the bank and how if everyone with cash in vanks pulled it out on the same day the whole bankimg network would collapse. A lot of it went well over my head but basically if its your money and a crisis happens everyone will want it at the same time.
He blames the entire gfc on this basically people got scared and wanted their cash it became a self fullfilling prophecy.
More people scared more buying fold or property with their cash...
He than goes into house prices and where people put their money, nowadays leaving it in the bank is basically the worst place to put it.
Interest rates are below cpi, everyone is printing funny money. Gold is ok and so is silver but now in a flobal eceonomy the value of both is extremely skewed due to our technology requirements and labour costs to produce it varying so much from country to country, the stock market and futures contains the alleged value of twice all the real money in the entire world that isnt there.
Is crypto the answer ????? I dont know,,, however i dont have enough for an investment property and other investment in this day and age give such little return with as high if not higher risk that dont outpace inflation not only are you losing money but someone else has control of it.
I can also guarantee that come time to get my super in 35-40 years ( probably 50 in reality) if it is there and we can actually get it there may be no value at all to it and if there is it will be taxed so heavily you wint be able to live in it.
20 years ago if you retired with a million you could of bought 5 -7 really rea?ly nice houses and lived off the rent.
If you retire now with a million you may be able to buy one semi decent house and possible scratch through with the change for 5-10 years earing well or 10-15 on noodles and rice with no heater in winter.
I have very little faith in the governments interest if its citizens and taxpayers and even less in corporote banking.
If you add in the other economies that affect us such as china ,the war economies, petrodollars, global banks, etc etc etc the world is a very unstable place. I am trying to hedge my bets against the future, will i lose a grand or two in crypto, absolutely i might... bit its a bit more realistic than spending 40 bucks a week on lotto for a year hoping for the best.
Buy crypto and drop your lotto for the year or one less carton a week or give up smoking and buy a chunk...

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sn said..

I'm pretty sure the average Greek citizen wouldn't have been too impressed when easy access to the "sovereign backed" currency in their bank accounts disappeared a couple of years ago,

or the average punter in India, where circulation of much of the "sovereign backed" bank notes came to a screeching halt not that long ago.

A very valid example there, sn. However, please don't forget that when it happened, other EU nations jumped in, not by choice I might add, to help out the Greeks. So there is some form of "forced" assistance there by related nations/members. It wasn't good nor pretty, but it got the Greeks out of the crap creek at least for now.

One the other side of the Bitcoin, if something similar happened, who do you go crying to ? Would anybody care ? That is my point...who is ultimately holding the baby ?

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Jupiter said..
Well, I thought $AUD or any other "official" currencies is the sovereign currency of that nation. There are people who are accountable for it, eg. the RBA in Straya and of course, the Strayan government.

How are they accountable for it? If it becomes worthless whose fault is it? (think germany a couple times during the 20th century)

And no, the government is not responsible for it at all. Not in the slightest.

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With Bitcoins and other forms of Internet currencies, who is actually ultimately responsible for them ?

Nobody.

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One can't imagine Strayan government to suddenly pull up stumps and shut up shop, and taking all the profits with it. I am not sure if the creator/overseers of virtual currencies can guarantee that won't happen.

They can't guarantee that can't happen because they don't exist. So they can neither shut up shop nor guarantee anything.

And even if they did exist, and did take all the bitcoin what would it then be worth? 0.

I only add that because it *is* theoretically possible for someone to develop some super computer that "gets ahead" of the blockchain (this is so, so, soooo hard) and effectively controls it. But, then they'd be effectively in control of the blockchain, and be making (i've calculated) about $3.6m per day mining the coins. So why would they want to destroy or corrupt or change it in any way at all?

___

I'd love to think of a better analogy...

Take the surf. Nobody controls the oceans' swells. But if a surf spot gets too crowded then, well it's not really as valuable to you or others surfers. Let's say there are 100 people out. So we can control the surf spot's value by surfing it or not surfing it, but nobody controls the surf. Nobody can steal the surf.

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evlPanda said..

How are they accountable for it? If it becomes worthless whose fault is it? (think germany a couple times during the 20th century)

And no, the government is not responsible for it at all. Not in the slightest.

With Bitcoins and other forms of Internet currencies, who is actually ultimately responsible for them ?

Nobody.

But, then they'd be effectively in control of the blockchain, and be making (i've calculated) about $3.6m per day mining the coins. So why would they want to destroy or corrupt or change it in any way at all?

___

I'd love to think of a better analogy...

Nobody can steal the surf.

Germany and some nations may have had defaulted on their loans or went bankrupt altogether, but still there is a country and a system of a country that will have to deal with such a crisis. Germany can't just washed its hands and said "None of my business. Not my fault". As much as it could be valid, but for a nation to exist as a trustworthy trading partner in the world, such crisis must be resolved one way or other, and the government of the day will have to cop the poison despite it is very bitter to say the least.

I used Greece as an example to reply to sn. Greece was, and possibly insolvent now, but it has to deal with the crisis. EU also has to come in to prevent the domino effect caused by Greece's collapse. Bitcoin and such like will not have willing partners to chip in. It is any man for his own.

As for the "not killing the goose which lays golden eggs" analogy, what is to guarantee some greedy and unscrupulous hombres who like the idea of taking the entire "goose house" with them instead of milking it ?

As for the surf analogy, that is actually my line of thinking too. Whether it has $billions of worth due to tourism, or zero worth, it is still there. No one can steal it. Just like a nation which has its own natural wealth and intellectual wealth.

Firstly dude keep asking. I don't feel this is an argument. : )
It's an interesting topic, and not just for bitcoin, because it makes people research money in general.

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Jupiter said..

Germany and some nations may have had defaulted on their loans... Germany can't just washed its hands and said "None of my business. Not my fault" ...and the government of the day will have to cop the poison despite it is very bitter to say the least.

It might seem reassuring that a country, its leaders, ...someone is held accountable and responsible if the currency becomes worthless. Mugabe springs to mind. But If you had your life savings in the German Mark circa 1924 you'd still be broke, nonetheless. Completely.

That is: having people responsible for a currency does not guarantee anything anyway. In fact one could argue quite the opposite; enter cryptocurrency.

Cryptocurrency uses maths. Nothing else. Can we trust maths? More than leaders? More than "a country". Hell, even the weather affects the $AUD; see a recent cyclone. Maths is maths. 2 + 2 will always = 4.

Cryptocurrencies' value comes from exchangeability and stability, like any other currency, like gift cards and strip club dollars too. But cryptocurrency *works* through mathematics, completely.

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Bitcoin and such like will not have willing partners to chip in. It is any man for his own.

True. They certainly won't. Theres nobody there to assist anyway.

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As for the "not killing the goose which lays golden eggs" analogy, what is to guarantee some greedy and unscrupulous hombres who like the idea of taking the entire "goose house" with them instead of milking it ?

If you take the entire goose house then you are the only person with bitcoin, and you've broken it. It becomes worthless.

I'll add that this is haaaaaaaaaaard to do. Nigh on impossible. The CPU power to do it is... unimaginable. But, even if you could you'd make your steal worthless.

It's there in section 6 of the white paper:

The incentive may help encourage nodes to stay honest. If a greedy attacker is able to assemble more CPU power than all the honest nodes, he would have to choose between using it to defraud people by stealing back his payments, or using it to generate new coins. He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules, such rules that favour him with more new coins than everyone else combined, than to undermine the system and the validity of his own wealth.

bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
It's only 8 pages and you can easily get the full idea of it without having to prove the maths (but you can if you want).

I know nothing about this !..........but first thoughts is black market money, tax evasion , problems .

^^
Imagine this...one moron stepped across the room. Just a dumb, meaningless step kicking the room and calling it for example a stepcoin. Now, in order to make the second stepcoin, it is necessary to make two steps and so on. When there are 100500 steps to the next stepcoin, you will need a new tool for their extraction...for example, a bicycle...then the car. But the essence does not change - this is still the meaningless steps in the room which actually don't do any good.
The stepcoin gigafactories were built in China and Iceland ( and more on the way), consuming loads of energy and producing massive amount of heat !
There is a talk of building a stepcoin factory in Antarctica...this is insane !

Why do you think the winters in Vicco are getting mild, SandS

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SandS said..

I know nothing about this !..........but first thoughts is black market money, tax evasion , problems .

I am not against anyone who makes a few bucks in an honest way. Hopefully along the way, some good come out of the process, like jobs, food production, or things that will make our lives better in some way. I call it tangible benefits.

With these phony money which comes out of some clever dudes' creative minds, add in some algorithms of some kind, suddenly you can make money, more of it, by computers ! I have yet to see a computer by itself manage to manufacture a single grain of crop. So I am calling it dodgy despite some will say it otherwise.

I work in the computer industry. I write computer software which helps people to solve problems as well as making their daily working lives easier. I believe my work helps productivity. I am not sure about these virtual money though.

OK, few people did very well out of this scheme/scam, but what I dislike about this is the fact that it enables dodgy deal to be made...I call it an "enabler". Drug deals paid with Bitcoins away from authorities ? The recent "Ransomware" which specifically required to be paid in Bitcoins tells me that it is definitely an enabler to dodgy deals.

Authorities are still blind to the fact of it being able to assist corruptions. Or may be they are helpless in preventing it ?

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Germany and some nations may have had defaulted on their loans or went bankrupt altogether, but still there is a country and a system of a country that will have to deal with such a crisis.

There no country behind bitcoin. It doesn't have loans. It can't default on them.

As for enabling dodgy dealings there have always been dodgy dealings. That previously the currency of choice was the $US says something about both it and now bitcoin.

As for "imaginary" all fiat currency is imaginary. The reserve banks just make it up. We need more; release more money into the economy. It just appears. Magic. There has been no such thing as hard currency, like a gold coin, for a long time now. It's all virtual, surely you've noticed???

Like... where do you think the $AUD actually comes from? There are no "parental figures" in the reserve bank growing and harvesting money trees, then releasing it into the economy like pocket money. **** just gets "made" as required.

Going further tax is not there to pay for government expenses, it's there to make sure there's not too much money in in the system, else we'd get hyper inflation. Tax is to remove money from the economy.

Bitcoin aims to solve many of modern currency's problems. Will it succeed? Dunno. Wish I'd bought $AUD100 worth when it first started.

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evlPanda said..

Germany and some nations may have had defaulted on their loans or went bankrupt altogether, but still there is a country and a system of a country that will have to deal with such a crisis.

There no country behind bitcoin. It doesn't have loans. It can't default on them.

As for enabling dodgy dealings there have always been dodgy dealings. That previously the currency of choice was the $US says something about both it and now bitcoin.

As for "imaginary" all fiat currency is imaginary. The reserve banks just make it up. We need more; release more money into the economy. It just appears. Magic. There has been no such thing as hard currency, like a gold coin, for a long time now. It's all virtual, surely you've noticed???

Like... where do you think the $AUD actually comes from? There are no "parental figures" in the reserve bank growing and harvesting money trees, then releasing it into the economy like pocket money. **** just gets "made" as required.

Going further tax is not there to pay for government expenses, it's there to make sure there's not too much money in in the system, else we'd get hyper inflation. Tax is to remove money from the economy.

Bitcoin aims to solve many of modern currency's problems. Will it succeed? Dunno. Wish I'd bought $AUD100 worth when it first started.

I wish I had bought a handful of Microsoft, and Apple shares too. But that is all hypothetical. I am happy with whatever I got, and I am only too happy for people who can make a bundle out of whatever they did.

As for the "official currencies", you do your transactions through the official channels, with proper paper work and/or auditable trials. I sent some money overseas recently for personal reasons, the bloody bank asked me so many questions as if it wasn't my own money that is going to be sent. But it is for a reason...I got the security to protect my money, and the authorities knew exactly where my money went, and it is not for supporting a terrorist organization, for example.

With the virtual money, where is the "paper" trail ? What evidence is provided that all is above board? Where did those tens if not hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin go into the Ransomware scam ? Can we catch the bastards without any trail ? Not likely I reckon. And that is my main issue with virtual money.

Every single transaction of bitcoin, ever, is in the blockchain. That is literally what bitcoin is. That seems a pretty good paper trail to start with.

I'm sure people/organisations already have ways to tie such perfect information like that to whoever withdraws it at the end.

It's anonymous only to a degree. In many ways that perfect paper trail of transactions makes it worse than cash, anonymity wise.

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evlPanda said..
Every single transaction of bitcoin, ever, is in the blockchain. That is literally what bitcoin is. That seems a pretty good paper trail to start with.

I'm sure people/organisations already have ways to tie such perfect information like that to whoever withdraws it at the end.

It's anonymous only to a degree. In many ways that perfect paper trail of transactions makes it worse than cash, anonymity wise.

If such a "block-chain" does indeed help with tracking down illegal activities, that is good. But then would it be possible to track down the receivers of those Bitcoin obtained through illegal means, eg. Ransomware ?

If authorities can indeed follow up on the trails now, how come such illegal activities are still going on unchecked? Is it because
(1). They are not willing to track down the nasty hombres ?
or
(2). It is actually not possible to track them down despite all the claims otherwise ?

I am sorry that I seem to be rather persistent in looking at the negatives of Bitcoins. However, I am rather pissed off by the recent events when bastards targeted hospitals without considering the potential for loss of lives.

Actually now I'm not sure at all it is possible to identify who is receiving the bitcoin. The example I was thinking of got caught in a number of ways, not just their bitcoin transactions. While every transaction is recorded, and freely available to everyone, it is impossible to tell who is transacting, if they are even half careful.

That said if you pay ransom it goes to a wailet/address. Every transaction from that wallet to another is recorded, and from that to the next and so on ad infinitum. I guess it is possible to figure out who eventually converts the bitcoin to a good, service or fiat currency. It's not unlike bank transfers but with absolutely no names on any of the transfers. You need to know who eventually removed it from the system, as cash, goods or whatever. Or, an IP address.

That said the transfers themselves, "x sent 1btc to y", are exactly that anonymous.

That it is given the "thumbs up" by criminals says ...er, something, about speed, ease of use, security and globalisation.

It can't be stopped. It's a distributed network with no central command. (Sound familiar?)

I have always have great doubts about the Swiss banking systems' genuine wish to weed out corruptions and illegal transactions. It is because of the banks protect the clients' details and went above and beyond what is necessary to hide them. That I believe is as bad as the corruptions themselves.

I believe the Swiss banks are beginning to relent such tight control a bit, but where are those billions of oil money gone? What about the ill-gained money by African heads of states ? How about the recent Malaysian PM's pocket money he claimed was "given as a gift" by a rich Saudi Prince ?

As much as I like the non-nonsense way transactions can be conducted in Bitcoins, I reckon it is just another crooked IT mob trying to swindle a bundle out of us. Sure, some of us will get a bit of left-over from it, but to what price we have to pay ? The society is ultimately paying for the cute money, I reckon.

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Jupiter said..
As much as I like the non-nonsense way transactions can be conducted in Bitcoins, I reckon it is just another crooked IT mob trying to swindle a bundle out of us.

The code is open source. You can check it out for swindles just like many, many, many others have:

github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin

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Jupiter said..
I have always have great doubts about the Swiss banking systems' genuine wish to weed out corruptions and illegal transactions. It is because of the banks protect the clients' details and went above and beyond what is necessary to hide them. That I believe is as bad as the corruptions themselves.

I believe the Swiss banks are beginning to relent such tight control a bit, but where are those billions of oil money gone? What about the ill-gained money by African heads of states ? How about the recent Malaysian PM's pocket money he claimed was "given as a gift" by a rich Saudi Prince ?

As much as I like the non-nonsense way transactions can be conducted in Bitcoins, I reckon it is just another crooked IT mob trying to swindle a bundle out of us. Sure, some of us will get a bit of left-over from it, but to what price we have to pay ? The society is ultimately paying for the cute money, I reckon.

We will pay a far higher price for the central bankers fractional reserve lending experiment. the invention of funny money distorting the connection between true value and price. This coupled with low interest rates and governments purposeably devaluing their currency for some short term exporting price gain.

This experiment is is running out of time.

^ to be fair how else are you going to buy a big ticket item, like a car or a house or a business or a submarine without being able to borrow the money? And where is the money going to come from if not fractional reserve? You gonna save for a submarine? Really?

I hear a lot of complaints and not many suggestions. The fractional reserve system has been funding almost everything you enjoy for a long, long time. We wouldn't have a fraction of the advanced society we have now without it. If funds R & D in everything.

It doesn't take long to see a few $1m+ transactions go through the bitcoin chain. ~400btc = ~$USD1m
sochain.com/btc

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It doesn't take long to see a few $1m+ transactions go through the bitcoin chain. ~400btc = ~$USD1m
sochain.com/btc

WOW, lots of millions are changing hands! Real eye opener.

Can I hold a bit coin in my hot little hand ? Is it an actual coin ? Can I flip it ? put it in my fob pocket ? stick it in my piggy bank ? bury it in my backyard ? fill an empty biscuit tin with them ? go to a poky joint and waste it ? walk in to a milkbar and ask for one of those , two of those , ten thousand of those freckles and pay for the tuckload of lollies with the bitcoin ?

Hey Sands, might not be able to play with them in your pocket, but there are a few shops in Subiaco [W.A.] that accept bitcoin.

I have no idea how they do it though - just saw the signs on the doors and windows.

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sn said..
Hey Sands, might not be able to play with them in your pocket, but there are a few shops in Subiaco [W.A.] that accept bitcoin.

I have no idea how they do it though - just saw the signs on the doors and windows.

I'm pretty sure you just pay by sending coins from your wallet to their wallet.
The last couple of weeks have been pretty gnarly in the crypto markets, it's real a rollercoaster ride.

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evlPanda said..
^ to be fair how else are you going to buy a big ticket item, like a car or a house or a business or a submarine without being able to borrow the money? And where is the money going to come from if not fractional reserve? You gonna save for a submarine? Really?

I hear a lot of complaints and not many suggestions. The fractional reserve system has been funding almost everything you enjoy for a long, long time. We wouldn't have a fraction of the advanced society we have now without it. If funds R & D in everything.

It doesn't take long to see a few $1m+ transactions go through the bitcoin chain. ~400btc = ~$USD1m
sochain.com/btc

Submarines etc were paid for via lending way before fractional reserve lending. But at least the gold standard kept a debt to asset ratio in some reasonable check. Now we have just stolen unpayable production from the future...to creat this so called advanced society. Been only around for 40 years and wages have not risen relative to inflation etc in that entire time, and yet the top 5 percent have on average increased their wealth by near 50 percent.

This is pretend money was lent in vast amounts at a wholesale interest rate to the big end of town and had to find a place in assets and markets, used for share buybacks, take overs and other leveraged derivatives through global equity markets around the globe.

The man trading time for dollars has seen NONE of this so called increase in production and efficiency and so called advanced society. All it has done is leveraged the wealth of the land back into the hands of the few.

270 trillion and counting ....not backed by anything but the promised of governments around the globe to pay out the bond at maturation.

The answer is simple. Tax land at a rate that takes away the economic rent derived from it...the very thing that creates speculative activity. This would do away with 80 percent of government and the public serves as well. Return the wealth in the land as a yearly payment to every citizen. But as it now stands the wealth using fractional reserve lending is just transferring this wealth to the few.

Study singapore....carefully...then you will understand why it will be the richest country per capita by 2050 with little to no natural resources.

Or stayed hoodwinked like most most economists and the public.

Study land...everything else is just a result of this underlying cause.

Gold has no intrinsic value so why restrict a currency to it?

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eppo said..
This is pretend money was lent in vast amounts at a wholesale interest rate to the big end of town and had to find a place in assets and markets, used for share buybacks, take overs and other leveraged derivatives through global equity markets around the globe.

...

The answer is simple. Tax land at a rate that takes away the economic rent derived from it...the very thing that creates speculative activity. This would do away with 80 percent of government and the public serves as well. Return the wealth in the land as a yearly payment to every citizen. But as it now stands the wealth using fractional reserve lending is just transferring this wealth to the few.

Study singapore....carefully...then you will understand why it will be the richest country per capita by 2050 with little to no natural resources.

Or stayed hoodwinked like most most economists and the public.

Study land...everything else is just a result of this underlying cause.

Hey, hey! Another person that understands money is pretend. It's no secret, really.

If you accept $XYZ as currency, and I accept it too, then it's a currency. That's all the $AUD is; a currency accepted by its constituents. Someone in, even New Zealand, will probably not accept it as currency to pay for an ice-cream.

So rule #1 for a currency is: it's exchangeable.

To wit; if I am selling a sail and you offer to pay me in bitcoin I'll accept bitcoin. It then becomes an exchangeable currency for us. This is exactly what is happening now.

There are some finer details about how bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) are a better currency. They solve a few problems. Won't go into it here.

Back to the $AUD being pretend. "But it's backed by the Australian Goverment!" Sure. Wait, what does this actually mean? That they'll... er, accept it as payment? That they'll... what? In truth it is somewhat backed by the Aussie govt. but is mostly backed by all of us that actually use it as currency. This is what gives it its exchangeability. Rule #1.

The GDP is us using it. If I give you $1 and you give her $1 then the GDP just went up $2. That's all GDP is; the $AUD being used as transactions. The more it is used the more valuable it is because rule #1, which takes us to rule #2: stability. The more people use it the more stable it becomes because of its mass, or something like that. A bit like as companies grow they become slow, and fat, and inefficient and don't move very fast. Or a crowd of people. Or anything that is big. It doesn't move much and is more stable.

The cryptocurrencies are nowhere near being popular enough to be stable yet. Obviously.

So a currency is:

#1: Exchangable
#2: Stable

From up above somewhere: You can no more hold a bitcoin in your hand than you can an Australian Dollar. That coin/note is an "I Owe You".

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evlPanda said..
So a currency is:

#1: Exchangable
#2: Stable

From up above somewhere: You can no more hold a bitcoin in your hand than you can an Australian Dollar. That coin/note is an "I Owe You".

I am not a financial expert, so my opinions are merely just that, my own take on currencies and how I view the financial systems.

I believe for a currency to be legit, it also needed to be "trusted". It is a bit like credit. Not many people have a spare $300,000 sloshing around at the bottom of his sofa. So if he wanted to buy a service such as getting his milking machine fixed, he will need to ask it to be fixed first and pay the service provider later. Cows needed to be milked twice daily, so no delay is permissible.

Now would the service provider turn up or demand "Show me the money !" Now there must be an "implicit" trust between the 2 parties. The trust being the dairy farmer will pay up when he himself gets paid. On top of that, based on historical reasons, the farmer is (1). A good bloke, and (2). He can be trusted.

Now there is another level of trust, and it is "explicit" trust. It being a signed "Work Order". That is a legal document stating that a service is asked for by the farmer at an "agreed" price. That document, when push comes to shove, is the basis for legal arguments.

The current financial situation in the dairy industry in bad. Service providers are owed $millions by the farmers. Now the service providers have 2 clear and very difficult choices to make. (1). To call in the credit, and (2). Sue.

None of these choices are good as they may cause the farmers to go bankrupt resulting in zero for the creditors. To sue is equally pointless as how do you get blood out of stones? Most farmers are honest lot, and they will honour their debts if they could.

So it all comes back to TRUST. You trust each other to be able to pay it back what is owed. That I believe is the same with currencies. Straya and most nations are a "going concern" and they will honour their debts, so each nation's currency is hence a legit transactional exchange.

With the virtual currencies, no one is ultimately responsible for it coming and going but a spaghetti mess of algorithms limited only by Geeks' imagination. When crap meets a fast spinning fan, who do you see ? Most critically, who cares ? You think Mr. Trumble will send in his team of AFP to check it out ?

Jupiter you may be right but since I started this thread I've made 30% obviously if I don't retrieve my money now it can go down.
or it can go up I'm not sure,,,,, there are more and more legit businesses and cafes and online companies accepting bitcoin.
Add to that there are now ATM in most countries no more traveller checks getting stung on international transfer or 2-3 day bank transfers.
the amount in crypto now is between 100 million and 115 dependent on time of week etc etc..
Its not going away
If you add to that all the corporate investment including banks and others it is now legitimising the whole industry.
Super funds are now going into the approvals process to invest and when not if it gets approved there will be millions if not billions poured in

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Razzonater said..
Jupiter you may be right but since I started this thread I've made 30% obviously if I don't retrieve my money now it can go down.
or it can go up I'm not sure,,,,, there are more and more legit businesses and cafes and online companies accepting bitcoin.
Add to that there are now ATM in most countries no more traveller checks getting stung on international transfer or 2-3 day bank transfers.
the amount in crypto now is between 100 million and 115 dependent on time of week etc etc..
Its not going away
If you add to that all the corporate investment including banks and others it is now legitimising the whole industry.
Super funds are now going into the approvals process to invest and when not if it gets approved there will be millions if not billions poured in

That is a very healthy profit there, Razzonator ! And congratulations. I believe you only had it for a very short time too. One hope it will keep going as it is, and you can retire on a private island with a Martini on one hand, and a mobile phone on the other. Mobile phone? You asked. Well, that is your tool to decide "buy or sell".

The question remains though..."Where is the 30% profit come from?" Not meaning to be a sour grape, but I thought profit is to be had when you sell a service or product others wanted to buy. For example, mining and banking. Mining sells minerals, and banking sells financial services such as providing loans to home buyers.

30% is very tempting for me, but I think I have enough and I want to play it safe.

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Jupiter said..

Razzonater said..
Jupiter you may be right but since I started this thread I've made 30% obviously if I don't retrieve my money now it can go down.
or it can go up I'm not sure,,,,, there are more and more legit businesses and cafes and online companies accepting bitcoin.
Add to that there are now ATM in most countries no more traveller checks getting stung on international transfer or 2-3 day bank transfers.
the amount in crypto now is between 100 million and 115 dependent on time of week etc etc..
Its not going away
If you add to that all the corporate investment including banks and others it is now legitimising the whole industry.
Super funds are now going into the approvals process to invest and when not if it gets approved there will be millions if not billions poured in

That is a very healthy profit there, Razzonator ! And congratulations. I believe you only had it for a very short time too. One hope it will keep going as it is, and you can retire on a private island with a Martini on one hand, and a mobile phone on the other. Mobile phone? You asked. Well, that is your tool to decide "buy or sell".

The question remains though..."Where is the 30% profit come from?" Not meaning to be a sour grape, but I thought profit is to be had when you sell a service or product others wanted to buy. For example, mining and banking. Mining sells minerals, and banking sells financial services such as providing loans to home buyers.

30% is very tempting for me, but I think I have enough and I want to play it safe.

But you are still tempted, scarcity is pretty tempting.

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Lazysurfer said..

But you are still tempted, scarcity is pretty tempting.

No. Tempting, but not tempted. Like that gun nut Charlton Heston said: "You will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands". I mean the money clutched in my hands

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Jupiter said..
With the virtual currencies, no one is ultimately responsible for it coming and going but a spaghetti mess of algorithms limited only by Geeks' imagination.

I wouldn't go so far as calling it a spaghetti mess. The same "spaghetti mess" is behind all banking transactions; cryptography.

Cryptocurrencies use cryptography in a very different way to banks. It's quite ingenious really.

Here's a really good explanation that leaves you with jumping off points to dig even deeper if you want to (probably not).



It is definitely important to at least understand the fundamentals if you are going to invest, and perhaps you'll find it interesting anyway.

By the way I think a critical, negative, "this is bull****" attitude is a safe, and intelligent one to have.