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FormulaNova said..

The Australian Standard wants tanks run up to 60 degrees C at least once a day to make sure it kills off any Legionaires bacteria. Its rare, but there have been cases of people turning down the temp of their tank and having problem with Legionaires disease.

That's a point. But you'd hope the standard is applied to the thermostats and the min available setting is 60.

(Just don't turn them up to 11 to get max shower time.)

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Ian K said..

FormulaNova said..

The Australian Standard wants tanks run up to 60 degrees C at least once a day to make sure it kills off any Legionaires bacteria. Its rare, but there have been cases of people turning down the temp of their tank and having problem with Legionaires disease.

That's a point. But you'd hope the standard is applied to the thermostats and the min available setting is 60.

(Just don't turn them up to 11 to get max shower time.)

The temp required to kill the bacteria is lower than 60 but takes longer, so i think 60 is chosen as a guaranteed figure.

This is not a spinal tap hws....

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FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and as water temps rise flat panels become much less efficient than evac tubes and.....

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

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Storm Ahead said..

Macroscien said..

We are going to spend 120bln on submarines, missle and war with China. Not much left even for bushfire helicopters. If only Trump could sell us pumped hydro, then we may have plenty soon. Unfortunately there are selling us mostly useless things, nobody else want. ie F35
Chinese on another hand have experience in geo engineering, but we are not allowed to buy from them. I wonder how it is possible we are still buying solar pv panels from them. Isnt it national security risk, ie panels spying on us, infected with viruses, can switched off from Benging anytime,

But what about all those "Foreign Actors" spying on us?

Heck I hope my computer doesn't get hacked now!

No worries, Macroscien will speak to his handlers.

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PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and... etc

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

If only FN could be an expert in building materials... like and expert in building materials...

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PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and are smaller format and are less prone to corrosion and...

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Oh, editting posts again I see.... Oh I mean, editting posts Mr new forum member.
It was false before, now its naive... what is it going to be in 5 minutes?

Solar evacuated tubes are next to useless in snowy alpine areas... what's your point?

Who is talking about low temps and overcast conditions? Oh, I see, we are talking about Queensland, yes?

If you think there is a big difference, you haven't tested them and are talking out of your arse.

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Pugwash said..If only FN could be an expert in building materials... like and expert in building materials...

PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and... etc

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

Oh you don't need to be an expert to know what you're talking about. You only need to be informed before shooting from the hip.

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Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and... etc

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

If only FN could be an expert in building materials... like and expert in building materials...

You mean if I was say, an architect, or one of those guys with a crayola?

Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

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PeterDutton said..

Pugwash said..If only FN could be an expert in building materials... like and expert in building materials...

PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and... etc

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

Oh you don't need to be an expert to know what you're talking about. You only need to be informed before shooting from the hip.

Always best to say nothing if you have no idea.

Is that ironic or is that just a shoot from the hip statement?

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FormulaNova said..Is that ironic or is that just a shoot from the hip statement?

PeterDutton said..

Pugwash said..If only FN could be an expert in building materials... like and expert in building materials...

PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said.....the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal.

Ahhh, no. That's a naive statement.

Evac tubes are far more efficient in low temps including sub-zero and overcast conditions, and if a tube breaks, it's easy to replace whereas a flat panel needs complete replacement on failure and they are smaller format and they are less prone to corrosion and... etc

...other than that the difference is minimal!

Why do they bother to manufacture them?!

Oh you don't need to be an expert to know what you're talking about. You only need to be informed before shooting from the hip.

Always best to say nothing if you have no idea.

The difference is minimal.

On hot water and solar, if you already have an electric hot water system and are thinking about PV, don't cheap out on a simple timer for hot water, get a diverter. Water heating was around 30 to 40 percent of our energy bill before installing PV with a diverter, now it is basically zero. Unlike a timer, a diverter only sends power to hot water when it is available from PV. On the odd occasion you don't get enough solar in a 24 hour period you can override. I've had to do that less than a dozen times since install a year ago. Converts your hot water into a kind of battery, so to speak.

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musorianin said..
On hot water and solar, if you already have an electric hot water system and are thinking about PV, don't cheap out on a simple timer for hot water, get a diverter. Water heating was around 30 to 40 percent of our energy bill before installing PV with a diverter, now it is basically zero. Unlike a timer, a diverter only sends power to hot water when it is available from PV. On the odd occasion you don't get enough solar in a 24 hour period you can override. I've had to do that less than a dozen times since install a year ago. Converts your hot water into a kind of battery, so to speak.

Spot on. Also, when we're all driving electric vehicles in the future, we won't need much of a battery fixed to the house, because EV batteries have far higher capacity than the average house battery and most of the time they're parked in the garage. The house battery could be a modest zinc bromide cell, which is better than LI in almost every way except format.

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PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

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PeterDutton said..

musorianin said..
On hot water and solar, if you already have an electric hot water system and are thinking about PV, don't cheap out on a simple timer for hot water, get a diverter. Water heating was around 30 to 40 percent of our energy bill before installing PV with a diverter, now it is basically zero. Unlike a timer, a diverter only sends power to hot water when it is available from PV. On the odd occasion you don't get enough solar in a 24 hour period you can override. I've had to do that less than a dozen times since install a year ago. Converts your hot water into a kind of battery, so to speak.

Spot on. Also, when we're all driving electric vehicles in the future, we won't need much of a battery fixed to the house, because EV batteries have far higher capacity than the average house battery and most of the time they're parked in the garage. The house battery could be a modest zinc bromide cell, which is better than LI in almost every way except format.

Oh yeah, you are wrong! False statement! Naive at best! Nerr nerr! "Modest battery'??

A battery in your car when you drive it to work and its not there to capture the solar energy from your house? Yeah, that's a great idea! Awesome!

Some would say if you don't know anything about a subject you should remain quiet. Pfffft! A battery that goes to work with you instead of one that stays at home to capture electricity... You must be a rocket scientist!

*This attacking people is so much better and easier than discussing things! I could really get into this... at least until my account gets banned and then I come back again, and then again, and again, and then I create another account, and then come back again, and again and

Guys guys guys, calm down. I know Heavy Weather is sorely missed by you but it's dead. D E A D. You couldn't keep it civil there, so now you're Venting here instead. What does this achieve? Zero.

Back to the subject, statistically cars spend 90+% of the time garaged so yes obviously that's an opportunity for future power sharing.

And most households have more than one car so.....makes sense to me... and Nissan...
thedriven.io/2019/07/11/nissan-sees-leaf-as-home-energy-source-says-tesla-big-battery-waste-of-resources/

www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html

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Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

I think P Dutton seems a bit sensitive about this heavy weather thing. Do you think its like one of those things where you hate on something you really love? Could be.

What do you think happened to Bono anyway? I would have thought he would have returned now that HW has gone...

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FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

I think P Dutton seems a bit sensitive about this heavy weather thing. Do you think its like one of those things where you hate on something you really love? Could be.

What do you think happened to Bono anyway? I would have thought he would have returned now that HW has gone...

I think binning HW was great. I know you miss it. It's obvious.

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FormulaNova said..

A battery in your car when you drive it to work and its not there to capture the solar energy from your house? Yeah, that's a great idea! Awesome!

But won't the electric cars 5 years from now drive themselves? It can drop you off, go home, plug itself in and pick you up at 5 pm? Or maybe to relieve traffic congestion your car will arrange a house swap with a car belonging to someone who lives closer to where you work and plug in there. You'll have no idea where your car has been to get amped up.

If only we had architect in the forum that could give us all the correct answers to everything

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PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

I think P Dutton seems a bit sensitive about this heavy weather thing. Do you think its like one of those things where you hate on something you really love? Could be.

What do you think happened to Bono anyway? I would have thought he would have returned now that HW has gone...

I think binning HW was great. I know you miss it. It's obvious.

I think you got banned from HW more times than HW was banned.

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PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

I think P Dutton seems a bit sensitive about this heavy weather thing. Do you think its like one of those things where you hate on something you really love? Could be.

What do you think happened to Bono anyway? I would have thought he would have returned now that HW has gone...

I think binning HW was great. I know you miss it. It's obvious.

Of course I miss heavy weather. It was a good forum. Where adults could usually discuss things without getting too carried away. I guess it shows human nature though that when given a bit of freedom people take it too far and don't behave.

From what i see the people that wanted it banned fell into two categories:

1) Those that didn't use it anyway and wanted it banned for the sake of it. Beats me why if they couldn't just ignore it?

2) Those that played in it but felt a bit aggrieved and wanted it shut down because they felt hurt somehow.

Of the group 2, it worries me. Its like those guys that claim girls are dressed provocatively and deserve what they get, because they cannot control themselves. It makes you wonder who has the problem.

I think in the case of that guy Bono, we all know who had the problem. He seemed to get so upset about things and then go nuts. I guess his pleading to shut it down was probably to try and save some of his sanity. I wonder if it worked? I guess we will never know as he has assured one of his friends that he never used it anymore, so he has probably just taken more anti-psychotics and had a bit of a rest.

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FormulaNova said..

PeterDutton said..

FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

PeterDutton said..
Kids, Heavy Weather is D E A D. Get over it.

What's heavy weather?

I'm sure if Adrian-o Bono-mini was here he'd be mad about that... ininit....

I think P Dutton seems a bit sensitive about this heavy weather thing. Do you think its like one of those things where you hate on something you really love? Could be.

What do you think happened to Bono anyway? I would have thought he would have returned now that HW has gone...

I think binning HW was great. I know you miss it. It's obvious.

Of course I miss heavy weather. It was a good forum. Where adults could usually discuss things without getting too carried away. I guess it shows human nature though that when given a bit of freedom people take it too far and don't behave.

From what i see the people that wanted it banned fell into two categories:

1) Those that didn't use it anyway and wanted it banned for the sake of it. Beats me why if they could just ignore it?

2) Those that played in it but felt a bit aggrieved and wanted it shut down because they felt hurt somehow.

Of the group 2, it worries me. Its like those guys that claim girls are dressed provocatively and deserve what they get, because they cannot control themselves. It makes you wonder who has the problem.

I think in the case of that guy Bono, we all know who had the problem. He seemed to get so upset about things and then go nuts. I guess his pleading to shut it down was probably to try and save some of his sanity. I wonder if it worked? I guess we will never know as he has assured one of his friends that he never used it anymore, so he has probably just taken more anti-psychotics and had a bit of a rest.

Hmmmm... we will never know...

I dunno FN... It's almost like he's here, now, hiding in the shadows... still unable to let it go. I never really liked that Spud Dudton, he is shady as...

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Ian K said..

FormulaNova said..

A battery in your car when you drive it to work and its not there to capture the solar energy from your house? Yeah, that's a great idea! Awesome!

But won't the electric cars 5 years from now drive themselves? It can drop you off, go home, plug itself in and pick you up at 5 pm? Or maybe to relieve traffic congestion your car will arrange a house swap with a car belonging to someone who lives closer to where you work and plug in there. You'll have no idea where your car has been to get amped up.

I have heard that argument before, but why would the car bother driving itself home? It would make more sense if it drove itself to a local parking garage for automatic drive cars and wait until you are ready. It wouldn't make sense to drive 45 mins back home, and then 45 mins back just to pick you up, effectively doubling the trip journey.

At least here, a lot of people drive to the city in the morning and then back in the evening. There would be no solar plants to plug into near the city, and really couldn't you just export the electricity onto the grid and charge elsewhere on the grid... which sort of brings me back around to the idea that the car could be used as a battery as per Bono's suggestion, but not actually at the owners house, but anywhere else, and just drawing from the grid what the house puts out.

Ultimately, would they then be used for load smoothing and only drag power from the grid when there is a surplus? Instead of 'charging' at a charging station for a few hours would they be used for load smoothing all day and charging only intermittently?

I am still skeptical though. I think 5 years is optimistic.

Guys, I highlighted a misleading statement about solar panels and presented a view about EV's.

No need to get so emotional.

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PeterDutton said..
Guys, I highlighted a misleading statement about solar panels and presented a view about EV's.

No need to get so emotional.

I am a very emotional guy.

I actually like your thinking PD ........................ I picture a future for electric vehicles where the energy storage device could be just like a "swap n go" gas bottle or the battery in a big toy. Solar would be perfect for keeping a battery charged in the garage at home (or at work) to quickly change out.

@musorian, I've never heard of this "diverter" you speak of, but it makes so much sense it's silly ............. your storage hot water tank becomes your energy storage device ............ very cool.

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Paddles B'mere said...I actually like your thinking PD ........................ I picture a future for electric vehicles where the energy storage device could be just like a "swap n go" gas bottle or the battery in a big toy. Solar would be perfect for keeping a battery charged in the garage at home (or at work) to quickly change out.

Thumbs up.
Optimism + good engineering goes a long way.

Those two things are what has developed us from banging dinosaurs with sticks to where we are today PD

I just got 4 quotes for solar panels, then decided to put the process on hold while I think about how it's all going to work.

All of the quotes came with some kind of plan for panels on my roof. All but one could not physically fit on my roof. None of them took into account shading from the neighbour's trees, or from my upper storey, even though I brought this to their attention when requesting the quotes.

All of the companies were highly rated on the solarquotes.com.au

What I really want is a company to come out and do a proper measure and quote. I would gladly pay a fee for that provided the companies demonstrated that they knew what they were doing.

At the moment I am working out the sun exposure for various parts of my roof to see where it makes sense to install panels. It's not that hard to do with the various resources available on the internet, and a look at the roof at various times of the day.