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Paddles B'mere said..
@Macro ................. you have outlined all the reasons why "distributed" alternative generation works very well ............... it might seem inefficient at face value compared to centralised generation, but it doesn't generally need increased network spend and in many instances can reduce network spend. The holy grail is figuring out efficient storage (electrically and economically).

And kk ............. you're right, there's a few costs missing out of that ROI calculation .............. you'd be wanting to depreciate a technology investment like solar at least 10% I reckon (10 year installation life) so there's $15k/yr straight off the bat to drop the ROI to 7% without even considering maintenance yet. That's still not too bad though.

Calculations like that are nonsensical with such yield. On global market makes only anything made in Australia too costly,. even living expenses too high unnaturally,.The national goal should be to produce as much solar energy as possible and turn it into something useful.For example to electrolyse aluminium or even melt iron in electric furnaces instead powered by coal.We need HVDC line spanning whole glob because sun in alway shining somewhere. No more excuses to use coal gas, ,or nuclear.Beside economy may prove that building transmission lines could be cheaper then massive battery storage.The discussion about on roof solar panels can not be conducted in rational manner. We love our ugly , expensive toy damaging our roof and there is no medicine to cure it. This is different part of human brain that control emotions, to not gray matter responsible for thinking.Problem with on roof solar panel will be resolve automatically once some smart ass will find out how to build a roof from structural solar panels not corrugated iron or ceramic tiles. Even Elons solar tiles are not going far enough in innovation. How difficult is to design and build structural solar panel the serve as water spout, insulation, roofing structure all in one? Need another Einstein to be born to find this out ?I imagine strong and insulated roofing solar panels 1 x 3 meters long, designed in such way to carry water down like tiles, and strong enough to walk on.Actually I build a practical shed on farm in such way using second hand solar panel stacking panels like tiles- that are cheaper then any other roofing material, but construction or aluminium frame at this moment is not ideal to carry water down from one panel to another even air flow/ wind can not be sealed properly.

Hey Macro, I actually don't believe that solar will be suitable for providing Australia with its industrial power needs in the next decade just based on security and reliability (sure, a low loss network would help heaps and it's always sunny somewhere). So whilst your pipedream would be great, I can't see it happening any time soon. But yes, PV developments to incorporate them into more useful building materials (ie roof panels) makes a great deal of sense. The only thing that makes sense in the short term is to push ahead with distributed solar generation and distributed solar storage for the domestic consumers and wait for the technology to get good enough to supply industrial users. Unfortunately this extends the life of the coal fired fleet and also encourages thought of nuclear generation to close the gap (between where we are right now with solar and where we would love to be).

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Paddles B'mere said..
And kk ............. you're right, there's a few costs missing out of that ROI calculation .............. you'd be wanting to depreciate a technology investment like solar at least 10% I reckon (10 year installation life) so there's $15k/yr straight off the bat to drop the ROI to 7% without even considering maintenance yet. That's still not too bad though.

Regular cleaning of the panels is a given. He had to replace a regulator I think.
He said the panels are good for 20 years plus. Footings and frames are good for......??
Capital investment is recouped in 6 years.
If the investment is financed and a creative accountant runs depreciation, gearing etc etc, no doubt the ROI would be a lot higher.

Still sounds good to me.

@cisco, yeah, if your mate had the space to do it and his neighbours don't give a rat's, then it's not a bad investment really. The main risks would be the technology becoming redundant (and making your electricity more expensive than other newer technologies) and the weather (either reducing generation or smashing your install). Electricity prices aren't going to fall unless some bright spark invents something mind blowing and cheap. I think we'll find it'll take longer than 6 years to get his money back, but as long as it pays for itself (including all costs) within its useful life then it's a winner, good on him I reckon. Did he get some government assistance? That makes it even more viable.

Why the **** aren't we getting on with building large-scale infrastructure for pumped hydro NOW? E.g. topography of many parts of eastern seaboard, esp North Qld are great for this, then just need a big interconnector down to Brissy and beyond. Great nation building spend on cheap money at time of economic crisis, good for depressed north Qld economy, jobs, long-term environmental and economic investments.

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musorianin said..
Why the **** aren't we getting on with building large-scale infrastructure for pumped hydro NOW? E.g. topography of many parts of eastern seaboard, esp North Qld are great for this, then just need a big interconnector down to Brissy and beyond. Great nation building spend on cheap money at time of economic crisis, good for depressed north Qld economy, jobs, long-term environmental and economic investments.

www.energy.gov.au/publications/battery-nation-and-marinus-link-factsheet
www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
reneweconomy.com.au/neoen-files-plans-for-3bn-wind-and-solar-farm-with-battery-10-times-bigger-than-hornsdale-67395/

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musorianin said..
Why the **** aren't we getting on with building large-scale infrastructure for pumped hydro NOW? E.g. topography of many parts of eastern seaboard, esp North Qld are great for this, then just need a big interconnector down to Brissy and beyond. Great nation building spend on cheap money at time of economic crisis, good for depressed north Qld economy, jobs, long-term environmental and economic investments.

We are going to spend 120bln on submarines, missle and war with China. Not much left even for bushfire helicopters. If only Trump could sell us pumped hydro, then we may have plenty soon. Unfortunately there are selling us mostly useless things, nobody else want. ie F35
Chinese on another hand have experience in geo engineering, but we are not allowed to buy from them. I wonder how it is possible we are still buying solar pv panels from them. Isnt it national security risk, ie panels spying on us, infected with viruses, can switched off from Benging anytime,

Back on topic. From memory, got 6kw solar around 2013 or 14, all euro manufactured parts. Spend 150/annum on cleaning+inspection. Next maintenance will see the frame fittings, bolts, etc... replaced with 316 S/Steel. Invertor went down & was replaced under warranty. No pool, big AC unit & 4 adults. Haven't seen a bill over $100 for ages, last bill was $8.64.

No brainer...

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Harrow said..

musorianin said..
Why the **** aren't we getting on with building large-scale infrastructure for pumped hydro NOW? E.g. topography of many parts of eastern seaboard, esp North Qld are great for this, then just need a big interconnector down to Brissy and beyond. Great nation building spend on cheap money at time of economic crisis, good for depressed north Qld economy, jobs, long-term environmental and economic investments.

www.energy.gov.au/publications/battery-nation-and-marinus-link-factsheet
www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
reneweconomy.com.au/neoen-files-plans-for-3bn-wind-and-solar-farm-with-battery-10-times-bigger-than-hornsdale-67395/

Snowy 2.0 is just one system, we need more in the pipeline. These are good, we need more

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musorianin said..

Harrow said..

musorianin said..
Why the **** aren't we getting on with building large-scale infrastructure for pumped hydro NOW? E.g. topography of many parts of eastern seaboard, esp North Qld are great for this, then just need a big interconnector down to Brissy and beyond. Great nation building spend on cheap money at time of economic crisis, good for depressed north Qld economy, jobs, long-term environmental and economic investments.

www.energy.gov.au/publications/battery-nation-and-marinus-link-factsheet
www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
reneweconomy.com.au/neoen-files-plans-for-3bn-wind-and-solar-farm-with-battery-10-times-bigger-than-hornsdale-67395/

Snowy 2.0 is just one system, we need more in the pipeline. These are good, we need more

I think what solar has shown us is that small developments that don't require huge projects are easier to get going, whereas larger projects always have problems with funding and startup costs and then the time to make them work. Smaller home-based batery banks is less efficient, but probably easier in a lot of ways.

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FormulaNova said..

I think what solar has shown us is that small developments that don't require huge projects are easier to get going, whereas larger projects always have problems with funding and startup costs and then the time to make them work. Smaller home-based batery banks is less efficient, but probably easier in a lot of ways.

You forgot to mention Lefties and Greenies....

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Macroscien said..

We are going to spend 120bln on submarines, missle and war with China. Not much left even for bushfire helicopters. If only Trump could sell us pumped hydro, then we may have plenty soon. Unfortunately there are selling us mostly useless things, nobody else want. ie F35
Chinese on another hand have experience in geo engineering, but we are not allowed to buy from them. I wonder how it is possible we are still buying solar pv panels from them. Isnt it national security risk, ie panels spying on us, infected with viruses, can switched off from Benging anytime,

But what about all those "Foreign Actors" spying on us?

Heck I hope my computer doesn't get hacked now!

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Storm Ahead said..

Macroscien said..

We are going to spend 120bln on submarines, missle and war with China. Not much left even for bushfire helicopters. If only Trump could sell us pumped hydro, then we may have plenty soon. Unfortunately there are selling us mostly useless things, nobody else want. ie F35
Chinese on another hand have experience in geo engineering, but we are not allowed to buy from them. I wonder how it is possible we are still buying solar pv panels from them. Isnt it national security risk, ie panels spying on us, infected with viruses, can switched off from Benging anytime,

But what about all those "Foreign Actors" spying on us?

Heck I hope my computer doesn't get hacked now!

Yep, I heard ( may not be true) that every Chinese made solar panel have complicated secret electronics in the connection box.
1.Microphone to listen conversations
2. Camera 360 degree, with thermal vision and thru wall low frequency detector.
3.Wide range antena to capture whole radio transmissions and wifi, telephone conversation, computers nearby
4. All those spying activity is then quantum encoded and send directly into sky to overflying Chinese satellites.
5. one more. ON given signal all panels could explode with 1kT explosive force thank to thermo nuclear payload melted into solar panel glass.
6. The plug also could release newests generation Covid22 virus into air , that have 100% mortality rate.

Yes, go for it, very good thing!

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Storm Ahead said..

Macroscien said..

We are going to spend 120bln on submarines, missle and war with China. Not much left even for bushfire helicopters. If only Trump could sell us pumped hydro, then we may have plenty soon. Unfortunately there are selling us mostly useless things, nobody else want. ie F35
Chinese on another hand have experience in geo engineering, but we are not allowed to buy from them. I wonder how it is possible we are still buying solar pv panels from them. Isnt it national security risk, ie panels spying on us, infected with viruses, can switched off from Benging anytime,

But what about all those "Foreign Actors" spying on us?

Heck I hope my computer doesn't get hacked now!

Maaaate, you are online searching for advice. You've already been hacked and are well on the way to being a conspiracy theorist! Before you know it you'll be accused of being a leftie, green communist personally responsible for spying on Alan Jones whilst simultaneously decentralizing and ruining Australia's power grid.
Welcome to Seabreeze

From economical point of view, national interest - on roof solar panels are completely nonsens.
But we are doing so for different reasons anyway, so what is the point to analyse and discuss it at all.
Simply do so! Economics of solar roof PV could be explained only by invalid price structure and failure of free market economy.The same may apply to bottled water versus communal ground water supply.For my commercial unit/ concrete warehouse tiny unit I do pay $345 for water and sewage every quarter.Then use maybe 2 liters of water a month , to flush a toilet.
That is $170 per liter.
But you are obliged by City Council to pay water rates regardless.
Obviously supermarket bottled water imported form France glaciers and portable loo could be obvious money saver.Same with roof solar panels -invented by idiots because idiocracy of bureaucracy.Every engineer , economist will agree with me , but rules are set by bureaucrats and politicians that could count only votes not money.I saw already similar discussion when feed in tariff was setup on 40c to 76c!!! Then people start doing long term plans how to live in comfort or retire and live of this solar panel for next half a century.Nowadays everything above 2c paid for feeded into grid power seems nonsense- creating new sort of taxes , after water/sewerage tax, petrol and road tax are not enough.As to conspiracies : Please read about Micro inverters - now being promoted to be attached to every solar panel.
Solar PV is passive , robust element ,
insusceptible external manipulation.

But once you add this 1 kg of complicated electronics, synchronized with wifi and stearible from outside central you are no longer an owner of independent power plant.

Solar installed today. 6.3Kw system, 6 hr to install and now putting out 3.1KW. $5.5K

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Wineman said..
Solar installed today. 6.3Kw system, 6 hr to install and now putting out 3.1KW. $5.5K

Curious to hear who you went with, and what components were installed. Unfortunately, I've the roof from hell for a solar install, with zig-zagging ridges and gutters all over the place.

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Harrow said..

Wineman said..
Solar installed today. 6.3Kw system, 6 hr to install and now putting out 3.1KW. $5.5K

Curious to hear who you went with, and what components were installed. Unfortunately, I've the roof from hell for a solar install, with zig-zagging ridges and gutters all over the place.

Have you got a big backyard?

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Harrow said..

Curious to hear who you went with, and what components were installed. Unfortunately, I've the roof from hell for a solar install, with zig-zagging ridges and gutters all over the place.

Me as well re roof... had 15 panels installed in 5 banks:

2 banks 4 panels
1 bank 3 panels
2 banks 2 panels

Just made sure the solar company came to my house first and agreed additional charges (which was like $100) before the installers came and tried it on... which they did...

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Harrow said..

Wineman said..
Solar installed today. 6.3Kw system, 6 hr to install and now putting out 3.1KW. $5.5K

Curious to hear who you went with, and what components were installed. Unfortunately, I've the roof from hell for a solar install, with zig-zagging ridges and gutters all over the place.

Went to Solarquotes website who then recommended 3 people to quote.
Chose the one who did site inspection and chat (Soltek).
Their quote in table form with 3 x panels by 3 x inverter made efficiency and cost comparison easy.

Installed 17 x Longi 370W Mono panels with Solar Edge Power Optimizer with WiFi and individual panel operation.
Down loaded app and had solar power from 1pm.

Had pool pump, dishwasher, table saw and lathe, electric oven going this arvo at various times - and the meter in from the grid was stationary til dusk!

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Wineman said..
Went to Solarquotes website who then recommended 3 people to quote.
Chose the one who did site inspection and chat (Soltek).
Their quote in table form with 3 x panels by 3 x inverter made efficiency and cost comparison easy.

Installed 17 x Longi 370W Mono panels with Solar Edge Power Optimizer with WiFi and individual panel operation.
Down loaded app and had solar power from 1pm.

Had pool pump, dishwasher, table saw and lathe, electric oven going this arvo at various times - and the meter in from the grid was stationary til dusk!

I'm gonna have to get onto this sooner rather than later. Just got an $800+ electricity bill for the past quarter. To make it worse, I have gas hot water and stovetop. I guess that's the cost of having a family of 5 at home full time during COVID, heating all their rooms while they study and work. Couldn't all be in the same heated room because we're all on different ZOOM calls at the same time.

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Harrow said..

Wineman said..
Went to Solarquotes website who then recommended 3 people to quote.
Chose the one who did site inspection and chat (Soltek).
Their quote in table form with 3 x panels by 3 x inverter made efficiency and cost comparison easy.

Installed 17 x Longi 370W Mono panels with Solar Edge Power Optimizer with WiFi and individual panel operation.
Down loaded app and had solar power from 1pm.

Had pool pump, dishwasher, table saw and lathe, electric oven going this arvo at various times - and the meter in from the grid was stationary til dusk!

I'm gonna have to get onto this sooner rather than later. Just got an $800+ electricity bill for the past quarter. To make it worse, I have gas hot water and stovetop. I guess that's the cost of having a family of 5 at home full time during COVID, heating all their rooms while they study and work. Couldn't all be in the same heated room because we're all on different ZOOM calls at the same time.

Dude, solar hot water with a gas booster.
We bathe. Have a 400lt tank with 2 cells. No worries.

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Buster fin said..

Harrow said..

Wineman said..
Went to Solarquotes website who then recommended 3 people to quote.
Chose the one who did site inspection and chat (Soltek).
Their quote in table form with 3 x panels by 3 x inverter made efficiency and cost comparison easy.

Installed 17 x Longi 370W Mono panels with Solar Edge Power Optimizer with WiFi and individual panel operation.
Down loaded app and had solar power from 1pm.

Had pool pump, dishwasher, table saw and lathe, electric oven going this arvo at various times - and the meter in from the grid was stationary til dusk!

I'm gonna have to get onto this sooner rather than later. Just got an $800+ electricity bill for the past quarter. To make it worse, I have gas hot water and stovetop. I guess that's the cost of having a family of 5 at home full time during COVID, heating all their rooms while they study and work. Couldn't all be in the same heated room because we're all on different ZOOM calls at the same time.

Dude, solar hot water with a gas booster.
We bathe. Have a 400lt tank with 2 cells. No worries.

Agree completely. Electric water heater is the greatest energy consumer at home.
But at same time the cheapest to replace and completely switch to solar water heater. The problem is that most offered solar water heaters are completely useless. My pumped onto two storey building solar water heater with flat panels installed by original builder use more energy then electric heater. Such system cost more then 4kBut installed by me off the grid vacuum tube system require no electric energy at all , and even boosting in the worse cold day isn't needed. cost $500. On average day boil the water at midd day, so tempering valve is compulsory.

@Macro, the real tragedy with hot water is using all that energy to heat it to a high temperature and then maintain it at that temperature ................... only to then add cold water to use it. We use instant gas heaters to try to get rid of this energy wastage.

@Harrow, crunch your numbers carefully to allow for all costs, the biggest cost will be writing down your install over a design life of say 10 years and then add in the opportunity cost of the capital till the break even or pay back point (your home loan rate for people with a mortgage or if you've got a credit card debt or a personal loan debt the rate is that rate). The gap between generating your own power and buying it from someone else closes up when you consider all the costs, but it can work well for some people who have big power bills from daytime consumption.

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Paddles B'mere said..
@Macro, the real tragedy with hot water is using all that energy to heat it to a high temperature and then maintain it at that temperature ................... only to then add cold water to use it. We use instant gas heaters to try to get rid of this energy wastage.

@Harrow, crunch your numbers carefully to allow for all costs, the biggest cost will be writing down your install over a design life of say 10 years and then add in the opportunity cost of the capital till the break even or pay back point (your home loan rate for people with a mortgage or if you've got a credit card debt or a personal loan debt the rate is that rate). The gap between generating your own power and buying it from someone else closes up when you consider all the costs, but it can work well for some people who have big power bills from daytime consumption.

Adding cold water doesn't waste energy but leakage thru the insulation during storage might. You can always turn down the thermostat though. Reduces heat loss in storage and your shower runs cold sooner. win/win,.

www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/water-heating/tankless-or-demand-type-water-heaters

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Ian K said..

Paddles B'mere said..
@Macro, the real tragedy with hot water is using all that energy to heat it to a high temperature and then maintain it at that temperature ................... only to then add cold water to use it. We use instant gas heaters to try to get rid of this energy wastage.

@Harrow, crunch your numbers carefully to allow for all costs, the biggest cost will be writing down your install over a design life of say 10 years and then add in the opportunity cost of the capital till the break even or pay back point (your home loan rate for people with a mortgage or if you've got a credit card debt or a personal loan debt the rate is that rate). The gap between generating your own power and buying it from someone else closes up when you consider all the costs, but it can work well for some people who have big power bills from daytime consumption.

Adding cold water doesn't waste energy but leakage thru the insulation during storage might. You can always turn down the thermostat though. Reduces heat loss in storage and your shower runs cold sooner. win/win,.

www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/water-heating/tankless-or-demand-type-water-heaters

My vacuum tubes solar water heater boil water about midday and doesn't require any energy to run at all.
Beside sun.
In comparison my flat panel solar water heater seems to radiate more heat, energy that actually acquire.
So buying Solar water heater make sure to buy proper one.Most of sold in Australia are flat panels, completely useless and painted black barrel will do the same job probably.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

vacuum tubes system with pumped water for circulation
$2500
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most efficient system below that doesn';t require any electric energy at all. Looks ugly for some, but my cattle on farms don't complain on the view.Boiling water everyday for free



approx $600
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most popular ( and expensive same time) system sold in Australia.
Unfortunately use more electric energy then plain water heater itself.



approx $4000

I hate to contradict Macro (again), but the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal. Its the pumped setup that loses energy and can be very dependent on the length of the run of pipes.

If you have a roof mounted tank, thermosiphon, the same as the example, then they are about the same.

A pumped system will use electricity from the pumps obviously, but I would be amazed if it was even close to the energy used to directly heat up water with an element.

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Ian K said..

Paddles B'mere said..
@Macro, the real tragedy with hot water is using all that energy to heat it to a high temperature and then maintain it at that temperature ................... only to then add cold water to use it. We use instant gas heaters to try to get rid of this energy wastage.

@Harrow, crunch your numbers carefully to allow for all costs, the biggest cost will be writing down your install over a design life of say 10 years and then add in the opportunity cost of the capital till the break even or pay back point (your home loan rate for people with a mortgage or if you've got a credit card debt or a personal loan debt the rate is that rate). The gap between generating your own power and buying it from someone else closes up when you consider all the costs, but it can work well for some people who have big power bills from daytime consumption.

Adding cold water doesn't waste energy but leakage thru the insulation during storage might. You can always turn down the thermostat though. Reduces heat loss in storage and your shower runs cold sooner. win/win,.

www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/water-heating/tankless-or-demand-type-water-heaters

The Australian Standard wants tanks run up to 60 degrees C at least once a day to make sure it kills off any Legionaires bacteria. Its rare, but there have been cases of people turning down the temp of their tank and having problem with Legionaires disease.

The place I live in has a tankless setup, but its so far from the bathroom that you lose a lot of water till it gets up to temp. The downside to this particular gas unit is that it requires AC to start up and when there are blackouts there is no hot water. There are units that start up using a D cell battery or even water pressure, but not this one.

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FormulaNova said..
I hate to contradict Macro (again), but the difference between flat-plate and evacuated tubes is minimal. Its the pumped setup that loses energy and can be very dependent on the length of the run of pipes.

If you have a roof mounted tank, thermosiphon, the same as the example, then they are about the same.

A pumped system will use electricity from the pumps obviously, but I would be amazed if it was even close to the energy used to directly heat up water with an element.

The pumped system offered here in Australia is open one at ground level.
Two circulation pumps, connected in serial , running at top power settings to pump in water onto roof of two storey building.
The water warm up ( or not) and flow down ) with gravity. Then need to be pumped ( not circulate) again 10 meters up. Obviously my first thought was to modify the system by installing piece of copper pipe, to convert open pressure system into heat exchanger.
To keep the pressure of returning from roof water at the pressure equal to the height.
This way single pump running at lower setting will be enough to push water resistance in pipes only, to circulate.
Not pump against gravity. All is needed is small cistern on top to regulate , refill circulation water . Like in all vehicles with water cooling engine system .
E-mgh energy saved
But such modifications of plumbing system by end users are illegal in Australia.Obviously Australian water system manufacturer could do the same in first place, but for some reason they don't.
For me not using sun to heat water for domestic use at home in Australia should be called crime and prohibited by law!

Good news is that I could now use freshly installed solar PV to power those pumps.
The bad news is that water heater element will switch ON mostly at evening , night after showers. That need to draw power from the grid, when energy prices is highest.Timer switch could solve the problem by delaying reheat till next day.
Next modification needed ? where are all geniuses designing our systems in Australia?