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Pugwash said..

FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

JEG said..
car prices in Australia are ridiculous and not many of us can afford $10,000+ car and seeing car sales at $20,000 to 50,000+ is just nuts (is just a transportation, I know some you take it seriously ).

Also, I just can't believe were still in combustion engine technology, its so primitive.

I think some new cars are crazy cheap... particularly Japanese cars... Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan...

Of course, keeping up with Mr or Mrs Jones can change make things a little dearer... but that is choice...

The reality is, if we're gunna make an impact on car emissions, pollution, use of resources that go into making cars, the price or ownership model needs to change... a lot...

Maybe ride share services like Uber are a way to change this? Some people use them far more frequently than they would have ever used taxis, so maybe this is a benefit to the economy in the long run?

Ride sharing or even car sharing already exist...

Completely agree more use than taxis... I know quite a few people that use ride sharing instead of driving.

The ownership model for cars is ancient and a very inefficient use of capital and resources... it's not even a stretch of the imagination to see how cars can be fully autonomous, connected via an internet of things, picking the most efficient routes and passenger numbers using AI...

It's not a very attractive option for us water users though is it?

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NotWal said..
I read that electric vehicles are expected to hit price parity by 2025.

For new cars, maybe. But for us average Joes, a (relative) rust bucket is still the realistic choice, no?

It's the end of an era in australian motorsport like mount panorama.

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FormulaNova said..Really? How many cars really are that good after 200k kms?

My falcon felt good on the first 40k kms I drove it, but now you can feel that the shocks need replacing.

Mine still drives like new after 420k, although I did replace the shocks at 250k. Had to re-glue the roof lining....the thin layer of foam falls apart after 10 years.

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Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..Really? How many cars really are that good after 200k kms?

My falcon felt good on the first 40k kms I drove it, but now you can feel that the shocks need replacing.

Mine still drives like new after 420k, although I did replace the shocks at 250k. Had to re-glue the roof lining....the thin layer of foam falls apart after 10 years.

You did well with the shockies!

Most have a designed lifespan of around 50k, but the average punter wouldn't have a clue their shocks are dodgy until the car handles like a dead whale - and even then probably wont do anything about it!
Bilstein don't even bother with a decent paint job on their shockies - they are expected [by the manufacturer] to be replaced well before the surface rust shows....

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Mobydisc said..
Holden has not been an Australian company for maybe 80 years. In other words anyone directly associated with the brand when it was Australian owned is either dead or is very old. So why is it an Australian brand trashed by a US company? Holden has been an American brand for a long time.

Holden = Australian brand.

Put in the trash by = a US company.

Did I get some facts wrong there?

Did I say "Australian company"? I don't think so...

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holy guacamole said..

Mobydisc said..
Holden has not been an Australian company for maybe 80 years. In other words anyone directly associated with the brand when it was Australian owned is either dead or is very old. So why is it an Australian brand trashed by a US company? Holden has been an American brand for a long time.

GMH's failure is the result of two decisions. Firstly deciding to sell cars not many people wanted or were able to buy.
Secondly and relatedly, deciding to concentrate on one customer, the State. The deal was give us the money or the workers will suffer. GMH and Ford managers did this year after year, extorting money out of the Federal government. When the State finally said no, the result was inevitable, especially considering Holden still continued to sell cars not many people wanted or were able to buy.

Holden = Australian brand.

Put in the trash by = a US company.

Did I get some facts wrong there?

Take it to HW...

The brand was put in the bin (we don't say trash) by Australians.

HW? Holy Wackamole is busy.

I deliberately used the term trash because it was done by an unimaginative US company that lost interest in innovation or being market leaders.

You may freely substitute the word trashed with the word binned.

Problemo solved. Knickers un-knotted.

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Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..Really? How many cars really are that good after 200k kms?

My falcon felt good on the first 40k kms I drove it, but now you can feel that the shocks need replacing.

Mine still drives like new after 420k, although I did replace the shocks at 250k. Had to re-glue the roof lining....the thin layer of foam falls apart after 10 years.

Well, just as a comparison, I bought a BA Falcon wagon from a backpacker a few years ago, and then sold it a year ago to some other backpackers. It had 350K kms on it, and was in top condition. I fixed up the cosmetic issues from having backpackers drive it for a few years, and when I sold it I was confident that it would last a lot longer as long as they didn't fall prey to a dodgy mechanic that made them pay for things they didn't need. It was good on fuel, good on power, and pretty roomy. Perfect for touring around Australia. The only problem I had with it was convincing the backpackers that this sort of mileage on these cars is not a problem, as long as it has had good oil and coolant changes.

I have an FG falcon that I bought with 210K kms on it, as it seemed to be a sales reps car. It ran very well, had a tonne of power, and was excellent on fuel. So good that most people don't believe that such a big car can get down to the 7s in l/100km on the freeway.

I replaced the shocks and springs from someone that was updating their G6E turbo, and it handled beautifully. Now they are worn out, its not so good, but I will fit a new set once I can justify a set of bilsteins for it.

The rooflining thing must be because of the outdoor heat in australia. All cars do it if they have foam backed roof linings. Any motor trimmer will tell you the same that there are no premium materials that are any better, they all fail.

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holy guacamole said..
HW? Holy Wackamole is busy.

I deliberately used the term trash because it was done by an unimaginative US company.

You may freely substitute the word trashed with the word binned.

Problemo solved. Knickers un-knotted.

Well, holy whackomole is accurate.

What were the Melbourne-based design and engineering team doing?

Was there strategy? Sales and marketing?

Might seem like silly questions to you, but this business went on designing and building cars Australians didn't buy...

Imagine you are, I dunno, an architect... and you draw houses that kinda look like a drawing of a house by a five year old... yeah, it's cute (if you're a parent)... it's nostalgic... but you don't have many paying customers.

Fark me dead...if it was the aussie design team pushing for these outdated designs without reading what the market wanted to buy they should have been burn at the stake.
How could be only the Mericans fault if even in Mexico they were and still making more interesting models than what was slapped together here?
Would be interesting to know how disruptive and intervening local Unions were to discontinuing a bogan limo line for a complete revamp/retool/automate for an updated product?
China has more automation than us at their lastest car making facilities.
In modern manufacturing, modernity and automation are a must to survive, but apparently australians only want automation in the mines or at the latest food delivery app because we are too lazy to cook.

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FormulaNova said..

Maybe ride share services like Uber

Little of topic - but I think all "ride share services" (uber, ola) are just another taxi service. The fact you use an app to summon a person who drives their own car does not change it.
Did anyone actually ever caught an uber where the driver was going in the same direction and simply picked someone else to share the ride?
I certainly did not...

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Buster fin said..

Pugwash said..

FormulaNova said..

Pugwash said..

JEG said..
car prices in Australia are ridiculous and not many of us can afford $10,000+ car and seeing car sales at $20,000 to 50,000+ is just nuts (is just a transportation, I know some you take it seriously ).

Also, I just can't believe were still in combustion engine technology, its so primitive.

I think some new cars are crazy cheap... particularly Japanese cars... Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan...

Of course, keeping up with Mr or Mrs Jones can change make things a little dearer... but that is choice...

The reality is, if we're gunna make an impact on car emissions, pollution, use of resources that go into making cars, the price or ownership model needs to change... a lot...

Maybe ride share services like Uber are a way to change this? Some people use them far more frequently than they would have ever used taxis, so maybe this is a benefit to the economy in the long run?

Ride sharing or even car sharing already exist...

Completely agree more use than taxis... I know quite a few people that use ride sharing instead of driving.

The ownership model for cars is ancient and a very inefficient use of capital and resources... it's not even a stretch of the imagination to see how cars can be fully autonomous, connected via an internet of things, picking the most efficient routes and passenger numbers using AI...

It's not a very attractive option for us water users though is it?

Find me an uber driver happy to get salt water all aver his car and who wants to wait while I'm out sailing

The car industry is changing and changing rapidly.

Chinese car companies are getting into it. They were and still are a bit of a joke but most probably in a few years & perhaps right now won't be.

Electric cars are going to make engine factories obsolete.

People will get around in a car without buying a car.

I'm not sure what was going though the minds of the people who decided it was not worthwhile to keep giving taxpayer money to Holden and Ford so they could keep making cars in Australia. However it's fairly probable it will be seen as a good decision as time goes on.

Maybe General Motors will come back to Australia one day with different cars people want. I think the Holden dealers out there could see Holden's future was dicey here. Many of them closed. The ones remaining seem to have taken on selling Chinese cars like MG and LDV.

A crystal ball would have helped here .
People want different cars to a commodore. If they want a people mover , they buy a med sized suv . If they want a fast car , they buy a hatch . That's what most are doing . I don't know anybody who has bought a new or secondhand commodore.
Mabee a med sized Torana with a sporty v6 option . They could also have a jacked up version like Mazda did with the cx3
It would fit in better to what people want.

Exactly. Holden failed because they stopped making cars Australians wanted to buy.

Whatever the reason - marketing, cost, a feeling, brand loyalty - Holden didn't tick the boxes any longer. One can only point the finger at the parent company for not innovating. The excuse that GM used - production costs and falling sales is a cop out. Cars are successfully produced in labour markets where costs are comparable such as Germany and France. If the product was world class, we could have exported it, no matter what the base cost.

I feel for the Australian design teams as their expertise and skills are significant. I hope they find new work quickly.

Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

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mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

I feel for you guys.

Our federal government, currently led by a happy clappy snake oil salesman and the people who influence it are truly arseholes. The country's stuffed if we don't pull our finger out and get on with building a real economy that has resilience and a future. Digging up the countryside and shipping overseas has limited benefits. One economic shock and we're stuffed.

Similarly, we're giving up on training the professionals and trades of the future - instead exporting university places to foreigners for a buck - again because our governments don't want to invest in our own children's future!

V
V labor did have a policy to develope electric cars ....when a nation looses manufacturing it's on it's way to 3rd world . Met quite a few mech fitters who did their trade in auto industry .

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mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Thoughts to you Mr Love... did think about you when I wrote that post... I agree it is sad and I hope the crew can find new things to take those skills to...

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gs12 said..

FormulaNova said..


Maybe ride share services like Uber

Little of topic - but I think all "ride share services" (uber, ola) are just another taxi service. The fact you use an app to summon a person who drives their own car does not change it.

Nope - they are digital platform companies that are extremely clever !

Why are they clever ? Its because they don't have:
- cars
- maintenance
- mechanics
- drivers
- an expensive real estate footprint
- a large human resources infrastructure
- etc etc etc....

In the same way Trivago is clever - they don't have to own, maintain and operate the hotels they book... They are a platform company...!

It was a parent company decision, I would imagine that GM are doing it tough in the US market and are simply consolidating their resources. It's a pity for the design people, but GM obviously didn't want to run design teams all over the globe and so have pulled it all back to the US, have they offered you guys the opportunity to go work in the US Mr Love?

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Main said..

gs12 said..

FormulaNova said..


Maybe ride share services like Uber

Little of topic - but I think all "ride share services" (uber, ola) are just another taxi service. The fact you use an app to summon a person who drives their own car does not change it.

Nope - they are digital platform companies that are extremely clever !

Why are they clever ? Its because they don't have:
- cars
- maintenance
- mechanics
- drivers
- an expensive real estate footprint
- a large human resources infrastructure
- etc etc etc....

In the same way Trivago is clever - they don't have to own, maintain and operate the hotels they book... They are a platform company...!

Trivago ha(s)d a great business face... not sure the business model is so good...

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mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Cant say I know too much about the car industry so two questions Id be interested to know -

1. When GMH agreed terms with the federal govt on subsidies/financial support - why wasn't there a condition requiring all government departments federal, state and local to buy locally made GMH cars ?? Why would the govt give money to GMH and then buy Toyotas, conversely why wouldn't GMH make it a condition of continued operation in Australia? This makes no sense !

2. Why did the design team continue to design cars no one wanted ?

Select to expand quote

Main said..

mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Cant say I know too much about the car industry so two questions Id be interested to know -

1. When GMH agreed terms with the federal govt on subsidies/financial support - why wasn't there a condition requiring all government departments federal, state and local to buy locally made GMH cars ?? Why would the govt give money to GMH and then buy Toyotas, conversely why wouldn't GMH make it a condition of continued operation in Australia? This makes no sense !

2. Why did the design team continue to design cars no one wanted ?

If you want to learn a little about the car industry Bill Creech's book The Five Pillars of TQM details his findings on the car industry in the United States.

After leaving the Air Force with an astounding record for turning things around from crap to brilliant he worked a s consultant in business.

He studied in depth the success of Toyota and Honda in the states. These two companies basically whipped GM and Ford. They were the first two companies to manufacture vehicles there and they did so under very tight control. From memory Toyota had to start up in a failed GM plant using a disgruntled and disengaged work force.

What they achieved is nothing short of astounding.

At the time of writing Honda were paying their workers the least hourly rate but they were consistently earning more than any other car manufacture workers through their quality bonus and productivity system.

The book is well worth a read just from the aspect of quality management.

I can tell you why Main, because it borders on corruption and anti-competitive behaviour and the company would still lose. Basically the local manufacturer would become so inefficient through subsidy that they would not be able to compete against other manufacturers and the non-government buyers would not buy cars from the local manufacturer and they'd go out of business ..................... hang on, that's almost what happened

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japie said..

Main said..

mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Cant say I know too much about the car industry so two questions Id be interested to know -

1. When GMH agreed terms with the federal govt on subsidies/financial support - why wasn't there a condition requiring all government departments federal, state and local to buy locally made GMH cars ?? Why would the govt give money to GMH and then buy Toyotas, conversely why wouldn't GMH make it a condition of continued operation in Australia? This makes no sense !

2. Why did the design team continue to design cars no one wanted ?

If you want to learn a little about the car industry Bill Creech's book The Five Pillars of TQM details his findings on the car industry in the United States.

After leaving the Air Force with an astounding record for turning things around from crap to brilliant he worked a s consultant in business.

He studied in depth the success of Toyota and Honda in the states. These two companies basically whipped GM and Ford. They were the first two companies to manufacture vehicles there and they did so under very tight control. From memory Toyota had to start up in a failed GM plant using a disgruntled and disengaged work force.

What they achieved is nothing short of astounding.

At the time of writing Honda were paying their workers the least hourly rate but they were consistently earning more than any other car manufacture workers through their quality bonus and productivity system.

The book is well worth a read just from the aspect of quality management.

There is another book that sets out a bit more interesting history of the decline of the American auto industry. - it's called "THE RECKONING' by David Halberstan. - good read as well as informative around the old failed theory of "What's good for GM is good for America"

Select to expand quote

Main said..

mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Cant say I know too much about the car industry so two questions Id be interested to know -

1. When GMH agreed terms with the federal govt on subsidies/financial support - why wasn't there a condition requiring all government departments federal, state and local to buy locally made GMH cars ?? Why would the govt give money to GMH and then buy Toyotas, conversely why wouldn't GMH make it a condition of continued operation in Australia? This makes no sense !

2. Why did the design team continue to design cars no one wanted ?

Can't say about the first question, but on the second I'm pretty sure the design team only designs cars that the parent company will back financially. So if the parent company has a poor plan and doesn't want to innovate it's business and production processes, it doesn't matter how good the design teams are because they are only permitted to design to the specifications and market the parent company approves. The design teams are therefore hamstrung.

For instance, in the US Tesla will kill GM and Ford if they don't get their act into gear soon, when price parity is achieved. This is not far off.

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Pugwash said..Thoughts to you Mr Love... did think about you when I wrote that post... I agree it is sad and I hope the crew can find new things to take those skills to...

mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Sure you were.....just after you indicated that the design and engineering team were designing cars Australians didn't want - as if they were the decision makers...

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briann8300 said..

japie said..

Main said..

mr love said..
Pugwash..... The Australian design Team have been and are still working on production work for the US market as well as advanced studies and concepts. A very talented and respected team that I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years. For this team to now be disbanded is truly sad and such a waste. The real story here is the job loses and another drain of Australian talent as many will have no option but to relocate. Our Governments talk about the Innovation nation but do F all to support Apex manufacturing where these innovation jobs are.

Cant say I know too much about the car industry so two questions Id be interested to know -

1. When GMH agreed terms with the federal govt on subsidies/financial support - why wasn't there a condition requiring all government departments federal, state and local to buy locally made GMH cars ?? Why would the govt give money to GMH and then buy Toyotas, conversely why wouldn't GMH make it a condition of continued operation in Australia? This makes no sense !

2. Why did the design team continue to design cars no one wanted ?

If you want to learn a little about the car industry Bill Creech's book The Five Pillars of TQM details his findings on the car industry in the United States.

After leaving the Air Force with an astounding record for turning things around from crap to brilliant he worked a s consultant in business.

He studied in depth the success of Toyota and Honda in the states. These two companies basically whipped GM and Ford. They were the first two companies to manufacture vehicles there and they did so under very tight control. From memory Toyota had to start up in a failed GM plant using a disgruntled and disengaged work force.

What they achieved is nothing short of astounding.

At the time of writing Honda were paying their workers the least hourly rate but they were consistently earning more than any other car manufacture workers through their quality bonus and productivity system.

The book is well worth a read just from the aspect of quality management.

There is another book that sets out a bit more interesting history of the decline of the American auto industry. - it's called "THE RECKONING' by David Halberstan. - good read as well as informative around the old failed theory of "What's good for GM is good for America"

I'll put that on my book list.

Should get to it by the end of next year!


it makes you realize how intransigent people are when it comes to cultural change. Consistently voting labor or liberal while they deliver nothing is a classic example.

One of the things that Creech discussed was the joint venture between Toyota and General Motors using Japanese Quality management techniques.

Apparently a common criticism by the main stream General Motors management group was that "they are different"

it's quite funny how the Japanese adopted quality management techniques which were developed in the United States but never really used there other than by a few successful companies like General Electric and Boeing.